On street parking & clearways

DubTony

I haven't parked on the street in Dublin city centre for about 10 years, primarily because i never bring the car into town. Today however, after trying The Square and Dundrum shopping centre I felt that the only place I'd get the book i wanted was Waterstones on Dawson St.

So in to town I went and was amazed that there was a parking space just 50 yards from the shop. So I squeezed between a Merc and an X5 and went looking for a Pay & Display machine. I didn't see the one between me and Waterstones until after making my purchase so I went onto Molesworth St. The first machine wouldn't take my money so I went to the next one.

The time between getting out of the car and getting back was 4 minutes. As I walked down to Waterstones the cop in the 4WD I had followed down Dawson St. was pulling out. I spent 15 minutes in the shop and got back to the car with 15 minutes to spare. Horror of horrors - there's a f**king parking ticket on the car. I checked the time and it seemed it had been put on before I got the ticket onto the car, but after tipping it over I'd been done for parking on a clearway for €25.

SH!T. I couldn't believe it. Having not parked in the city for years I'd forgotten all about clearways. I stepped out onto the road and checked the signs. Sure enough, clearway from 4 pm. I'm a gobsh!te. Then I looked at the Merc behind me. No parking ticket. Then the X5 in front. No parking ticket. Then after checking closely I noticed that neither of them had Pay & Display tickets either. WTF ????

So, fuming a bit I got into the car and off I went. Drove round Nassau St and onto Kildare St. Then I noticed that all the clearway signs on Kildare St. are facing towards cars as they head towards the Green. Dawson St.'s clearway signs are parallel to the street so can't be read until a driver gets out of the car, steps back into the street and looks up. Crazy really as Kildare St. is full of double yellow lines.

2 questions. Do the council really want people to see the clearway signs on Dawson St., or is it yet another revenue generator, and why the f**k didn't the cop do the Beemer and the Merc?

Alun

What's possibly more bizarre is the fact that the Pay&Display machines will actually issue a ticket during the times that you're not allowed to park there

loyatemu

the ticket machines are organised on a zonal basis. if you buy a ticket on stephen's green it's valid for the entire yellow zone.

Downtime

1) Revenue Generator

2) If you had a camera you could have taken a photo and complained.

I've seen a parking zone further away from the city being more expensive to park in than one nearer the city (Portobello area) Also seen a red ticket machine, issuing green tickets, but charging for red.

Genghis

This happened me before in another part of the city. Almost exact same circumstances.

1. I am from outside Dublin and forgot about clearways
2. The sign about the clearway was placed parallel to the direction the car was facing (i.e. the best place to view it would be from the other side of the street, not a drivers seat).
3. The meter placed no further than 10m from me happily issued me a ticket that included one hr of clearway time (think I bought ticket at 3.45 and paid until after 5pm).
4. Along came cops and issued a ticket (€25) at about 4:15
5. At 4:20 along came C*ntrol Plus Clampers at 4:20 and towed my car away.

In the end I had to pay a total of €105 in fines and about €5 in parking charges. I also had to walk two miles to recover the car (they didn't impound it, just re-parked near ringsend), and lost about 1hr while they found this out for me, and a further 30 mins to get to it. They also cheerfully warned me that the car was now re-parked in a clampable zone and was currently without ticket and therefore liable for further penalties if I didn't go about recovering it immediately.

It all really pissed me off. About 200 yards back up the street and in the same clearway / double yellow line section were apx 20 Garda-owned cars arked at the back of Pearse St station - no fines, clamping or tow-away there. I also felt that I had been punished twice for the same crime by two different agencies. In addition, I felt that clearways, being clearly different to ordinary car places, should be visibly different (perhaps different coulr tarmac, or lines, or an on-road indication that the spot is in a clearway) - the place I parked in looked exactly like any other in the city.

I made all of these points to both C*ntrol Plus and to the Gardai. C*ntrol Plus were not to be moved, they sent back a snotty letter rejecting all my points and including pictures of the signs, etc. The Gardai were a lot more sympathetic when I called them, and a helpful person there suggested I send in my details, along with a receipt for the car removal and seek to have the fine revoked. In the end they decided that I should pay the fine too.

A very expensive lesson.

On the plus side, C*ntrol Plus no longer operate the clamping franchise in Dublin, they have been replace by Park Rite. Apparently these guys are more customer friendly and there was some report recently that showed they are a lot more reasonable in their appeals process. However, as your 'beef' is with the Gardai, I guess that is little comfort.

If I were you I'd notch it down to experience and count yourself lucky that you didn't get done for more.

PS on the matter of the other cars - both the Gardai and C*ntrol Plus emphasised quite strongly that the illegality of my actions was not diminished by the apparent / alleged illegality of others nearby - in other words that the fact others were not punished for the apparent same offence does not mean that you were any less guilty.

BrianD

Unfortunately, Genghis is right. The Gardai may have started to ticket your car and go onto the next but got called away on an emergency coffee run.

The illegal parking by PRIVATE CARS owned by Gardai at various stations around Dublin is highly symbolic of the unprofessional and joke of a police force that we have in the country. We have private vehicles owned by Gardai and official vehicles clogging up Townsend St. Up on Harcourt St. a special area was reserved for Garda vehicles but they now have started parking right on the junction of Harcourt St. and the street with the entrance to the Pod making it difficult for traffic crossing the tram lines. Anyone notice the weed infested grounds of Harcourt garda station. Again highly symbolic.

No parking company is going to challege illegally parked private vehicles owned by gardai because one day they will need them as back up (remember the Control Plus incident in Abbey St. - plenty of garda back up then). Plus the Gardai are happy with private clampers as they don't have to bother with traffic duties.

you raised an interesting point about the signage positioning on the street. What's the norm in other countries? Is there DoE guidelines? Also if the ticket machine issued a ticket, I think you would have good grounds for appeal. I know on the street outside there is a conflict between the signage and the labeling on the ticket machine. Both are official so who do you believe?

At least, The new crowd are certainly less aggressive than Control Plus

BrianD

BTW How far is one expected to walk to find another ticket machine if the nearest is broken?

jlang

On a clearway, you're not expected to stop, let alone look for a ticket machine. Patrolling parking spots should be a lower priority for the clampers than keeping clearways clear, IMHO. An overstayed parker only really reduces the income of the City Council and inconveniences maybe 1 drivers looking for a spot (the one that would have taken the spot), but someone blocking a clearway is delaying everyone that would use that traffic lane at rush hour.

Being from the country or ignorance of clearway regulations isn't an acceptable excuse in my book. Finding your car lifted to around the corner and clamped there would be an acceptable penalty. If it works at Christmas for Freeflow, it should be fine all year around.

(The other issue is why there's clampers, ticket wardens and Garda traffic corps all enforcing the same laws - a kick up their respective unionised backsides would probably sort that out.)

Flukey

I know it's a bit late now and slightly off the point, but if you were in both the Square and Dundrum, you could easily have got the Luas into town. Fair enough, you didn't know what was going to happen, but it still seems a better option. Most people know how hard it is to get parking in town nowadays. Why didn't you do what you normally do, and go by public transport? You'll go back to doing so in future I am sure.

DubTony

There's no question that I deserved the fine. That's the first parking ticket I've received in 18 years. I always, until yesterday, obey parking laws. I just feel a little hard done by. The questions I posed were primarily for consideration so thanks for the replies guys. (Yeah Brian, You too. )

Maybe a letter to someone in the council with photos of what I believe to be stupidly placed signs will wake someone up.
Alun brought up the point about the machine issuing a ticket after 4pm. This occured to me late last night. I might suggest in the letter I might send to the council that each machine should clearly state the times of clearways. Dubliners aren't the only people parking in Dublin. To expect somebody to programme ticket machines so that they won't issue a ticket during clearway hours is akin to expecting a full month of sunshine during an Irish summer.

I agree that other cars not being ticketed for an offence doesn't make it ok for me to do it. My gripe is that a paid public servant decided that one car in three should be fined for the same offence. And why ticket the middle car of 3 illegaly parked cars? The cop was parked for at least 3 minutes before I left my car. Maybe he didn't want to be seen by his "victim".

I firmly believe that writing a letter to the appropriate person on the council (if anyone knows who that is, I'd appreciate it) will change nothing. The signs are, and it's the first time I've ever considered it, incorrectly positioned. Turn them 90 degrees so we can see them as we drive. The real problem is that we elect people who appoint someone else to do the job, unlike the U.S. where everyone from the local binman to the President is elected. In Ireland there is no accountability. Each appointed person is evaluated on how well he / she is seen to be doing the job, as opposed to the effect his work has on the public and on the areas of influence his job covers. If the signs on Dawson St. were the same as on Kildare St., I'd have passed by the spot and wondered why the other cars hadn't been towed away. So by placing signage incorrectly, there's a chance that someone will make a mistake / break the law just as I did. The whole purpose of the signs is to inform people of the rules. Imagine if speed limit signs were placed parallel to the road.

As for using the Luas. It's my usual method of transport into that part of town, (I park in my mothers driveway in Churchtown and walk to Dundrum - 15 minutes walk) but yesterday I needed to be home to Firhouse by 5:30 and couldn't be sure that I'd make it. As it was, I was home at 5:10. Traffic was very light - which brings up another point. Why have clearways when they may not necessarily be needed? A case in point. I believe there is a new taxi rank on the left of Dawson St outside Cafe en Saine and Ron Blacks. If I'm right, this was only introduced because taxi drivers complained bitterly for long enough and broke the law regularly while waiting to pick up there. I know that cops used to apologise to taxi drivers for moving them on as there was absolutely no justification in not allowing cars to stop there at night.

Is the reason for a clearway to keep traffic moving or is it just because they're too lazy to really look and see if traffic is actually affected by cars parked there? The spot is just after Molesworth St. on the right (approx. 4 car spaces). Or is it to generate income for what is supposedly a hard pressed council? Too many questions need to be addressed to too many bodies (Gardaí, councils, planners etc.), and for me anyway, answers are not expected.

As an aside. In Manhattan about 15 years, ago a sign I saw on the road side (facing oncoming traffic ) stated the following.

NO STOPPING - NO STANDING - NO PARKING - NO KIDDING

No doubts there then !