Loyalist murder and drug dealing.

hill16

Loyalists and the security forces have always been friends.

A Dub in Glasgo

A lot of the time, they were one and the same

murphaph

hill16 wrote:

Loyalists and the security forces have always been friends.

I dare say if you were one of the scumbags hit by a baton round on Thursday night it wouldn't feel too 'friendly'. :rolleyes:

jank

murphaph wrote:

I dare say if you were one of the scumbags hit by a baton round on Thursday night it wouldn't feel too 'friendly'. :rolleyes:

Hence the outrage from the DUP

MrPudding

gurramok wrote:

If you had watched the the TV pictures from then, it can be clearly seen that there were a few hundred hooded men making sure people would not move back into their homes.

Wearing a hood is not illegal, even in NI. Were they actually physically stopping people from entering their houses? What exactly would you have them charged with?

gurramok wrote:

It also showed removal vans during the day coming back and forth and gangs
hanging around in full view of the PSNI making sure not one of the families return.

Last time I checked removal vans, in addition to hanging around, were also nor illegal.

I do not doubt that some loyalists were forced from their homes during the night, that is not in question.

It is obvious PSNI knew what was going on. But, as the chief constable said, in the article you linked to yourself, if no-one makes a complaint there is very little they can do. It would seem that nothing overtly illegal happened during the day. Obviously there was intimidation, the reason for those guys hanging around there was obvious for all who saw the footage but, no one complained and the scumbags didn't do anything which would have allowed the police to arrest them.

MrP

Victor

hill16 wrote:

Loyalists and the security forces have always been friends.

Not quite. "With it" members of the protestant / unionist / loyalist communities joined the security forces, the dregs joined the UVF / UDA. The same didn't happen with nationalism / republicanism. Hence the huge difference in sophistication between loyalism and republicanism and their armed wings.

Orizio

jank wrote:

Hence the outrage from the DUP

The 'DUP's' outrage is no different from SF's outrage when the PSNI dare to stop rock and bottle throwers in Catholic communities during the marching season.The DUP,just like SF,used the polices use of force to take attention away from the thugs that attacked the PSNI and to curry favour among the the protestant communities that vote for the DUP.

The riots were in reponse to the PSNI's seacrching for information and clues over the deaths of three men and the up heaving of LVF reated families in Garnerville street not because of PSNI brutality.Riots that were far worse then anything the Republican community has started in years.If the PSNI doesn't attempt to get a handle on this situation then the UVF willl wipe out the LVF and more.

hill16

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/2953705.stm

catholicireland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programm...ama/2953705.stm

Yes, British state terrorism, no worse then the IRA

supersheep

MrPudding wrote:

Wearing a hood is not illegal, even in NI. Were they actually physically stopping people from entering their houses? What exactly would you have them charged with?
Last time I checked removal vans, in addition to hanging around, were also nor illegal.

Intimidation is though, right? Or some similar things. And that's what they were doing... Anyways, when was the last time you saw several hundred hooded men standing around casually?

murphaph

supersheep wrote:

Anyways, when was the last time you saw several hundred hooded men standing around casually?

The 4th of June, 7.30 pm, Landsdowne Road, South Terrace. Twasn't several hundred men anyway. Twas more like 2 dozen.

MrPudding

supersheep wrote:

Intimidation is though, right? Or some similar things. And that's what they were doing... Anyways, when was the last time you saw several hundred hooded men standing around casually?

Was it intimidation? Actually is wasn't. You see no one put in a complaint or told the police they were being intimidated.

Now I am quite sure the police knew exactly what was going on but until some calls the cops and says "there are 200 guys with masks standing outside my house preventing me from entering it" it is just 200 guys standing around in masks. And, as I have already pointed out, wearing a mask is not illegal.

And by the way, I used to see a lot of hooded guys standing around. They used to stop people entering or leaving the estate I lived in during the Drumcree protests. And believe me, when you are kicking with the wrong foot it is intimidating, but that is besides the point.

If you want an example of the police standing back and allowing illegal behaviour to continue, there is your example. During the worst of the Drumcree protests some areas in the North were brought to a halt.

I am from Coleraine and it was really grim. Most of the estates were completly blocked from about 1700Hrs. They would not let vehicles in unless the driver was "known" or was wearing a sash. People walking were allowed in or out but known Catholics were verbally abused and harassed, we didn't have to wear armbands or anything the harassing was being carried out by people we grew up with and played with as kids.

There were police watching every blockade but for the most part they let it continue. They kept the main roads and bridges open and protected those that decided to run the blockades but that was it.

For me what happened in Garnerville was not a case of the police just letting illegal activity continue. No one complained so there was legally no intimidation. They questioned the guys in masks, took names and looked for offenses for which people could be arrested. The chief constable himself said that had there been any arrests to be made they would have been made.

I have to say I have no great problems with the police in the North. In the 27 or 28 years I lived there I had no problems with them. That said they have done, or not done, some things which have annoyed me. Allowing the loyalist scum to bring the North to a halt, for example, for me was a great annoyance. At the same time it would have been very hard for them to deal with .

MrP

gurramok

MrPudding wrote:

I am from Coleraine and it was really grim. Most of the estates were completly blocked from about 1700Hrs. They would not let vehicles in unless the driver was "known" or was wearing a sash. People walking were allowed in or out but known Catholics were verbally abused and harassed, we didn't have to wear armbands or anything the harassing was being carried out by people we grew up with and played with as kids.
MrP

Coleraine, if my memory serves me right...that was the place(maybe only place) where british troops had to be redeployed onto the streets after the 2nd IRA ceasefire due to the volume of attacks on the cathoilc community by loyalist thugs?

Anyway, speaking of intimidation....loyalist terrorists are at it again trying to ethnically cleanse a village of any catholic that they are living in fear that the PSNI issue fire blankets!!
village terror
Surely its about time there was a permanent police/army presence in areas where the loyalist terror continues...maybe a watchtower to keep an eye on things?

hill16

All the watch towers in Nationalist areas were not working when Loyalists were shooting people dead because of their religion. :mad:

supersheep

MrPudding wrote:

Was it intimidation? Actually is wasn't. You see no one put in a complaint or told the police they were being intimidated.

Now I am quite sure the police knew exactly what was going on but until some calls the cops and says "there are 200 guys with masks standing outside my house preventing me from entering it" it is just 200 guys standing around in masks. And, as I have already pointed out, wearing a mask is not illegal.

And by the way, I used to see a lot of hooded guys standing around. They used to stop people entering or leaving the estate I lived in during the Drumcree protests. And believe me, when you are kicking with the wrong foot it is intimidating, but that is besides the point.

If you want an example of the police standing back and allowing illegal behaviour to continue, there is your example. During the worst of the Drumcree protests some areas in the North were brought to a halt.

I am from Coleraine and it was really grim. Most of the estates were completly blocked from about 1700Hrs. They would not let vehicles in unless the driver was "known" or was wearing a sash. People walking were allowed in or out but known Catholics were verbally abused and harassed, we didn't have to wear armbands or anything the harassing was being carried out by people we grew up with and played with as kids.

There were police watching every blockade but for the most part they let it continue. They kept the main roads and bridges open and protected those that decided to run the blockades but that was it.

For me what happened in Garnerville was not a case of the police just letting illegal activity continue. No one complained so there was legally no intimidation. They questioned the guys in masks, took names and looked for offenses for which people could be arrested. The chief constable himself said that had there been any arrests to be made they would have been made.

I have to say I have no great problems with the police in the North. In the 27 or 28 years I lived there I had no problems with them. That said they have done, or not done, some things which have annoyed me. Allowing the loyalist scum to bring the North to a halt, for example, for me was a great annoyance. At the same time it would have been very hard for them to deal with .

MrP

Does that mean murder isn't murder until someone calls the cops? I doubt it... I don't think even a lawyer would agree that illegal activity only becomes illegal when someone reports it...
Anyways, although no-one called the cops, they were there. And if a cop sees a murder attempt, he doesn't just stand there and say "Well, no-one told me it was a murder attempt...", he tries to stop it (or should anyways...) Now, if they couldn't take the thugs on because they were outnumbered, fine, but they should have called for back-up.

murphaph

supersheep wrote:

Does that mean murder isn't murder until someone calls the cops? I doubt it... I don't think even a lawyer would agree that illegal activity only becomes illegal when someone reports it...
Anyways, although no-one called the cops, they were there. And if a cop sees a murder attempt, he doesn't just stand there and say "Well, no-one told me it was a murder attempt...", he tries to stop it (or should anyways...) Now, if they couldn't take the thugs on because they were outnumbered, fine, but they should have called for back-up.

It's not so simple. Lots of crimes have to be reported before the police can investigate. I saw an assault on a woman by a bloke in Phibsborough one night. I ran over and the bloke ran off. The woman's eyebrow was cut. I walked her to Mountjoy Garda Station and the Guards took it from there. I returned to the station the following night and made my statement. The Guard who took it knew the woman and told me she'd been assaulted before by who turned out to be the darling hubby and dropped the charges. This time she didn't even make a statement. The Guards are powerless unless an accusation is made. I believe England & Wales allows the police to charge someone of assault etc. without the victim's consent but I don't think it applies in NI.

If assaults (murder is a stupid example by the way-obviously if someone is murdered they can't make a complaint :rolleyes: ) take place then they must be reported to the police for anything to happen. If assaults need reporting then you can bet your ar$e that 'intimidation' does too. Even with a report, intimidation is damn hard to prove!

MrPudding

gurramok wrote:

Coleraine, if my memory serves me right...that was the place(maybe only place) where british troops had to be redeployed onto the streets after the 2nd IRA ceasefire due to the volume of attacks on the cathoilc community by loyalist thugs?

Close but not quite. Troops were redeployed but it was the old UVF vs LVF feud we have all come to love tha twas the reason. Each side was getting kids to throw blastbombs through each others windows.

We, as Catholics, were threatened but nothing ever happened. The police and army were patrolling in the estate. They had heard of the threats, not just to us but any Catholics in the estate, and kept an eye on us. I have to say it was quite comforting to know the police and the army were keeping an eye.

MrP

supersheep

murphaph wrote:

It's not so simple. Lots of crimes have to be reported before the police can investigate. I saw an assault on a woman by a bloke in Phibsborough one night. I ran over and the bloke ran off. The woman's eyebrow was cut. I walked her to Mountjoy Garda Station and the Guards took it from there. I returned to the station the following night and made my statement. The Guard who took it knew the woman and told me she'd been assaulted before by who turned out to be the darling hubby and dropped the charges. This time she didn't even make a statement. The Guards are powerless unless an accusation is made. I believe England & Wales allows the police to charge someone of assault etc. without the victim's consent but I don't think it applies in NI.

If assaults (murder is a stupid example by the way-obviously if someone is murdered they can't make a complaint :rolleyes: ) take place then they must be reported to the police for anything to happen. If assaults need reporting then you can bet your ar$e that 'intimidation' does too. Even with a report, intimidation is damn hard to prove!

Fair point. But if the cop is standing there, that means they should go over and stop the assault, right? They mightn't be able to prosecute, but they can scare the guy away at least.
Oh, and I picked murder for that very reason...

TetsuoHashimoto

McDowell unionist, pro loyalist or Wasp ?

Passes archaic rules to slow up the Irish police force, the Guardi
seems to repeat a lot of the textbook stuff reverend ian says
was a big pro-Bush, bomb iraq fan
puts pressure on our judges,
he had to be dumped out in the past
makes various allegations, and attempts to get property on the side
has been after the prison officers, and has no respect for their work
spent his vaction in the African apartheid
hi8mself and harney look like tweedle dum & tweedle dumber
never criticizes loyalist guns
constantly trying to shovel old pre-famine legislation
looks like an aborted fetus


just wondering when he's going to join the BNP, DUP or UKIP ?

Ajnag

Sauce for the goose?

Ive followed the anti sf/ira threads in a half assed way now for a while, But Im just wondering now that the Ira is supposedly out of the way will we see the same venom against loyalist paramilitary groups who co-incidentaly arent even part of the peace process any more:
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1935762005

Or was all that chest thumping over sf/Ira illegal activity simply a circle jerk?
Its not ok for criminality on our side of the fense but its ok up north so long as it dosnt affect us?
And to think we'd lecture the yanks on their business!?!.

mike65

TetsuoHashimoto wrote:

McDowell unionist, pro loyalist or Wasp ?

Passes archaic rules to slow up the Irish police force, the Guardi
seems to repeat a lot of the textbook stuff reverend ian says
was a big pro-Bush, bomb iraq fan
puts pressure on our judges,
he had to be dumped out in the past
makes various allegations, and attempts to get property on the side
has been after the prison officers, and has no respect for their work
spent his vaction in the African apartheid
hi8mself and harney look like tweedle dum & tweedle dumber
never criticizes loyalist guns
constantly trying to shovel old pre-famine legislation
looks like an aborted fetus


just wondering when he's going to join the BNP, DUP or UKIP ?

And your point is, caller?

Mike.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

murphaph

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Couldn't agree more. Why on earth would we get as upset with Loyalist scumbags in another country as republican scumbags in our own. Thankfully we can keep the Loyalist gangs out by simply maintaining partition, which, whether SF like or not, is up to us, not them. It'll be decades (if ever) before patition is history.

I'm a lot more worried about the murderers of Mr Rafferty (10 mins walk from my home and being attributed to SF/IRA) than I am about what goes on in the UK. Daithi Doolan & Co can fool some of the people, some of the time......

Ajnag

I'm sorry lad's but you don't seem to get me, While Ira criminality is unjustifiable, the loyalists are also common denominator to the entire problem, You may wish to try and divide it into 2 countrys, but their criminal activitys dosnt respect borders anymore then the Ira's. They are co-protagonist's of the problem and I would find it hypocritical for us not to apply the same pressure and vitriol to their activitys now that the Ira have desisted.

Also I don't understand the sudden lack of empathy for victims of violence up north, In fact I find it somewhat hypocritical considering that up until recently the majority down south were roaring in protest at the events up north and now all of a sudden we don't give a toss.

As I said sauce for the goose.

Sponge Bob

murphaph wrote:

Thankfully we can keep the Loyalist gangs out by simply maintaining partition,

Just like I can be absolutely sure of keeping the sun out of my eyes as long as my head is fixed well up my arse.

We cannot keep the chav scum out , there is no physical border there is there and no security either.

murphaph

Sponge Bob wrote:

We cannot keep the chav scum out , there is no physical border there is there and no security either.

I accept your point, I should have been clearer-we can make sure we don't have to police the Loyalist drug gangs by maintaining partition.

biko

murphaph & Sponge Bob

There is no need for a physical border. The only time Loyalists would feel it necessary to cross into the Free State is when the are OO marches, for instance in Rossnowlagh, DL.

Partition or not, Staters can freely cross into NI today but no-one does. Why? Because they are scared because of propaganda out by the British media about what a dangerous place Belfast is when in fact it is not!

NI has one of the lowest crime rates among industrialised countries. One report based on the International Crime Victim Survey said: "The ICVS allows an overall measure of victimisation which is the percentage of people victimised once or more in the previous year by any of the eleven crimes covered by the survey. This prevalence measure is a simple but robust indicator of overall proneness to crime.
The countries fall into three bands.
Above 24% (victim of any crime in 1999): Australia, England and Wales, the Netherlands and Sweden
20%-24%: Canada, Scotland, Denmark, Poland, Belgium, France, and USA
Under 20%: Finland, Catalonia (Spain), Switzerland, Portugal, Japan and Northern Ireland.

From the results of the ICVS it seems that Japan is the only industrialised country safer than Northern Ireland.

Sponge Bob

biko wrote:

murphaph & Sponge Bob

There is no need for a physical border. The only time Loyalists would feel it necessary to cross into the Free State is when the are OO marches, for instance in Rossnowlagh, DL.

Biko , point accepted about general crime in the North but your idea of when a loyalist may 'feel it necessary' ...as you quaintly put it ... to come south is frankly risible

The LVF (when still the mid ulster UVF) were associating with Dublin crims over 10 years ago.

Loyalist criminal gangs will come south whenever they feel like, as they have been doing for years, and I will go north just as easily but I won't seen be driving around south antrim around the 12th

Murphapp thinks that we don't have to deal with the scum becuase of this border thing but we do.

Then again the Lancashire constabulary has to deal with weaponry in its jurisdiction that is connected with the continuity IRA in Limerick , equal scumbaggery

murphaph

Sponge Bob wrote:

Murphapp thinks that we don't have to deal with the scum becuase of this border thing but we do.

Actually I said if the border remains then the PSNI will have to deal with them. Sure, some will stray south to do deals but your assertion that we have to police them now is ridiculous-we have some criminals coming over from Britain sometimes but we don't police them over there and more importantly we don't have to pay for their policing. Loyalist drug dealing gangs are centred on Belfast and it's environs. Let the PSNI deal with them up there.

Kilsally

I think you would find it quite surprising the number of "Loyalists" that routinely go South on a day-today basis for business, for cheaper fuel, let alone holidays and such. And the number of cars up here with Southern number plates has noticably increased in recent years. The media only reports the "highlights". Mundane mediocre day to day life in Northern Ireland is no different than the rest of Ireland and the UK. The vast, vast majority of people get on well..peacefully...as good neighbours. I`m an Orangeman living in a largely Nationalist area and I`ve never seen a riot and our parades occur quite peacefully and in fact are funded by the local council which is 60 or 70% Nationalist.