What culture does this degrade?

gregos

This is a post I put in the Limerick forum. It describes things I've witnessed in the last week. The mod locked the post, accusing me of stereotyping. Now, I haven't described any characteristic of any group of people, just things I've personally seen in the last week. My overly defensive intro is to avoid any suggestion that I was identifying a particular group or culture, and the behaviours I describe don't seem to me to belong to any particular culture, but you can't be too careful with the disclaimers these days.

This is what the mod said:

"I wonder which group of people you are stereotyping here

Locked

If you dont like my policy against degrading other peoples cultures then take it to feedback."

This is the post he didn't like:

"From now on, all my posts are going to be equal-opportunity, non-judgmental, fibre-rich, low-fat, non-discriminatory outpourings of niceness to everybody. And in saying everybody, I don't want you to think that I'm being in any way disrespectful to any minorities of any kind. Ever. OK? I don't know who the people are that do these things. They're definitely not from any particular grouping within our society. They could be your family or mine. But I just wanted to say what wonderful human beings they are, and how much I admire them:

People who burn rolls of copper wire, sending huge clouds of toxic smoke into the open air.

People who park in large groups at the side of the main road and leave mounds of rubbish behind them.

People who race sulkies side-by-side on the Childers Road.

People who drive quad-bikes at high speed along the Plassey bank where others are walking.

People who allow their horses to wander around housing estates that residents are trying to keep safe for their children."



As I said, these are things I personally witnessed in the last week, not something from my imagination. So, who is doing the stereotyping here, me or the Mod?

billy the squid

maybe its the group you were referring to in the thread i locked two days ago

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=285158

I did not like your termenology in the first thread, nor Downtime's and I felt your thread was trouble when i seen it.

oh and the thread that is being referred to in post one is linked below
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=286254

greglo23

Tinker is not a derogatory word when used in the right sense. it originally comes from the old irish name of tinceiri or tinsmiths which was honorably practised by the travelling people in years gone by.

gregos

greglo23 wrote:

Tinker is not a derogatory word when used in the right sense. it originally comes from the old irish name of tinceiri or tinsmiths which was honorably practised by the travelling people in years gone by.

That's exactly what I wanted to point out, but I wasn't permitted. The full point I wanted to develop was this: various euphemisms have been introduced over the years, and all have come to be seen as derogatory. I can remember a government-backed TV campaign to persuade Irish people to use the word "itinerant" instead of "tinker". Today, if you call somebody an itinerant, you're considered to abuse them. The same thing is currently happening to the Travellers' own preferred word "Pavee", as in Pavee Point. Pavee is now used almost as an expletive. Therefore, the point I wanted to make, (but wasn't allowed to), is this: it doesn't matter what word is used for Travellers. All names will eventually become terms of abuse and have to be replaced by new euphemisms, because people are definitely prejudiced against them.

Furthermore, Travellers don't help their own case when they engage in practices such as those described in my second banned post, where I described the behaviour observed among settled and travelling people alike.

billy the squid wrote:

maybe its the group you were referring to in the thread i locked two days ago

This is what I asked in that post:- In what way is the word "tinker" derogatory? What does it mean?

Billy, if you read it carefully, you'll see that it doesn't refer to any group, but to the meaning of a word.

All of this could have been discussed were it not for your knee-jerk banning response.

billy the squid

Firstly, I was not happy with , and am still not happy with the word "tinker" being used. Other people in that thread, not only myself, were not happy with the word being used.

Secondly, threads of this nature, throughout my time on boards, have ended up being 35 pages long and very hostile. your thread was also locked to prevent this from happening. The first thread, started by cornbb, was heading in this direction.

I stand by my decisions to lock these two threads.

gregos

OK, Billy. As you have failed to address the rational points I made to you here in the Feedback forum, I conclude that you are relying on the old football defence: "it's my ball and you can't have it!"

By the way, since you're concerned about threads becoming hostile, are you saying there's no room to discuss the type of behaviour I described in my thread?

billy the squid

My problem was, and still is the use of certain terms in a number of posts. that is why the first thread was locked. your thread was written in a way to both designed to start trouble that is why that was locked.

The way I see it, is that your overly - PC post, was in response to me locking a thread containing the term "Tinker" in it, a term which I, and other people in the first thread consider to be offensive.

If you want to discuss issues relating to anti-social behaviour, whether it be traveller, settled person, then by all means do, but will not leave terms like "Tinker" " Pikey" "knacker" go unanswered. hence the reason the first thread was locked..

bonkey

I don't know who the people are that do these things. They're definitely not from any particular grouping within our society. They could be your family or mine.

So...they're not part of our society, you don't know who they are, they could be any of us....but you're referring to tinkers.

If its not derogatory, its confused at least. How can you not know who these people are, and yet be referring to a specific cultural group - a cultural group that you go on to claim is not part of our society???

You went to offer your low opinion of these people and made it damn clear who you're referring about. Claiming you don't know who they are is nothing but deliberate disingenuity at best, and downright intellectual dishonesty at worst.

jc

gregos

bonkey wrote:

So...they're not part of our society

Where did I say this? These are my words: "They could be your family or mine." How much more inclusive would you like me to be?

bonkey wrote:

. . .yet be referring to a specific cultural group

Where did I refer to a specific cultural group?

Is it your position that settled people don't do the things I described, and that therefore you assume I must be talking about travellers?

billy the squid wrote:

will not leave terms like "Tinker" " Pikey" "knacker" go unanswered.

How do feel about the word "Pavee"? Is that permitted?

billy the squid

just a question though, if your post was not about travellers, then why should you feel the need to ask if the word "pavee" is ok to use?

as for your answer, I dont mind the use of the word "pavee" as it is currently used by travellers to describe themselves.

I dont claim to be the best moderator on boards.ie, there are better mods than me. however I believe that I was right in locking those threads. If an administrator disagrees, then fair enough, otherwisse, i am done with this issue.

gregos

billy the squid wrote:

just a question though, if your post was not about travellers, then why should you feel the ened to ask if the word "pavee" is ok to use?

The reason is that I saw how rapid the reaction was to any hint of criticism of travellers. Therefore, believe it or not, as my posts are generally designed to bring out debate on important issues, I don't want to have them locked.

If I were to repost, without an introduction, simply listing the behaviours and asking people what they thought, I think you might lock the thread again. That suggests to me that in your own mind, these behaviours are unique to travellers. Which they are not.

billy the squid

The reason is that I saw how rapid the reaction was to any hint of criticism of travellers.

so you do admit the reason you started the second thread was not the desire to start a debate, but to make some sort of point that the moderator is "pro-traveller"

The thread was locked because of the use of the word "Tinker" but it is nice to finally see that a desire to start a discussion was not the real reason you started the second thread.

if you want to criticise travellers by all means do, but do no use words that can be deemed offensive. please get it into your head that the offensive terms were what got the first thread locked.

DeVore

N|gger comes from the Niger River (afaik). Its still pretty offensive is you call someone a "filthy n/gger!". You are of course simply referring to the unwashed state of a man from the Niger valley. But you aren't really. And you'll find those sort of "M'Lud, we was only using proper english" arguments will not wash here, we take a far more realistic view here.

If you want to open up a full and frank discussion of the traveller communities interaction with the settled community from your pov, feel free but don't think for a moment that some smart arsed, *wink* *wink*, post is going to get passed the mods or the admins.

DeV.

gregos

It's actually a corruption of "negro", which means black. That is precisely the point I have been trying to make: it's the intent behind a word that is offensive, which is why one euphemism becomes replaced by another.

Likewise "tinker", the meaning of which has already been explained.

As for smart-assed wink wink posts, I take it then that you haven't been to Limerick recently, where you can see people from all sections of the community doing the things I described in my post. If you'd like to visit, I can show you around. Perhaps that's the problem: does nobody here believe that settled people do these things?

Boston

DeVore wrote:

N|gger comes from the Niger River (afaik). Its still pretty offensive is you call someone a "filthy n/gger!". You are of course simply referring to the unwashed state of a man from the Niger valley. But you aren't really. And you'll find those sort of "M'Lud, we was only using proper english" arguments will not wash here, we take a far more realistic view here.

If you want to open up a full and frank discussion of the traveller communities interaction with the settled community from your pov, feel free but don't think for a moment that some smart arsed, *wink* *wink*, post is going to get passed the mods or the admins.

DeV.

What about, "it's ok cause gamers say it all the time" arguements you've used in the past.

billy the squid

gregos wrote:

It's actually a corruption of "negro", which means black. That is precisely the point I have been trying to make: it's the intent behind a word that is offensive, which is why one euphemism becomes replaced by another.

Likewise "tinker", the meaning of which has already been explained.

As for smart-assed wink wink posts, I take it then that you haven't been to Limerick recently, where you can see people from all sections of the community doing the things I described in my post. If you'd like to visit, I can show you around. Perhaps that's the problem: does nobody here believe that settled people do these things?

i dont know many settled people who do this

People who park in large groups at the side of the main road

your words gregos, not mine.

gregos

billy the squid wrote:

i dont know many settled people who do this

[QUOTE=gregos People who park in large groups at the side of the main road

your words gregos, not mine.

The most recent example I can think of is this. A very large group of people moved into the area occupied by the old Oaklands premises, camped there for about three weeks, and left yesterday, leaving behind a lot of rubbish. Like everybody else in Limerick, I guessed that those people were Travellers, but as I don't know a single one of them, I can't say that for sure. If you're saying that this particular type of behaviour is confined to Travellers, fair enough. Does that mean you think it's acceptable?

Do you also think that wandering horses, quad-bikes, racing sulkies etc are all unique to the Traveller culture? I'm pretty sure most of the people who do these things are from the settled sections of our society.

billy the squid

The most recent example I can think of is this. A very large group of people moved into the area occupied by the old Oaklands premises, camped there for about three weeks, and left yesterday, leaving behind a lot of rubbish. Like everybody else in Limerick, I guessed that those people were Travellers but as I don't know a single one of them, I can't say that for sure

I'm sorry,but if you felt so strongly about this issue, you would have started a new thread which abided with my comments in this thread by now. you havent so like every other moderator who has posted in this thread, I am guessing that you are trolling and am going to stop replying to these posts.

you know well why the first thread was locked

and you know well why your thread was locked.

It is gratifying to know that you were referring to travellers all along though.

and before you ask, your post was not locked because it was about travellers, it was locked because it was stereotypingi in a dishonest manner.

Bodka

billy the squid wrote:

maybe its the group you were referring to in the thread i locked two days ago

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=285158

I did not like your termenology in the first thread, nor Downtime's and I felt your thread was trouble when i seen it.

oh and the thread that is being referred to in post one is linked below
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=286254

billy the damp squib