Priests-Dying out?

LadyJ

Hey all.
Was just thinking the other day how you rarely see any young priests in Ireland. Is anyone even entering the priesthood these days? It seems to me that there will probably be a severe shortage of nuns and priests within about 20 years or so.
What does everyone think? Is anyone here thinking of taking vows or know anybody who is? Just curious.

netwhizkid

Celibacy isn't hereditary you know, Let priests marry and express human love and emotions and you will see people becoming priests again. Anyway why would anyone want to join or be part of a 2,000yr old lie.

Ania

Anyway why would anyone want to join or be part of a 2,000yr old lie.

What lie are you talking about?
If you mean the priesthood, you are wrong with *2000years* because the first Christian priests were married and the very first Christian priest was even a woman and there was even a female pope.

netwhizkid

we don't see the catholic faith being very tolerant of women or their needs nowadays though. do we ? everything that is even suggested is now shot down them. An example is the deacon of St. Patricks cathedral in New York caught having an affair with his secretary, the man was only human, like if i was in his situation too, i'd fall for the same woman. Basically priests are men and thus should be allowed marry. The only new priests now are either gay or have been gilted in love so many times that this is their only escape.

Ania

The only new priests now are either gay or have been gilted in love so many times that this is their only escape.

Nonsense!
And if you are right... so what?

netwhizkid

Ania wrote:

so what?

This is not just a so what issue, if the Catholic Church was interested in staying in touch with modern society and young people in general it would be more relaxed on issues like contraception, it's attitudes towards young people and issues like priests getting married. Young people today in Ireland anyway want to.

Enjoy life to its fullest, who knows what lies after it if anything. Becoming part of the church quite simply could not fit in with anypart of that especially for men. For most non-gay men life without a woman is quite simply uncomprehensible, and sometimes it is hell with them too I could almost guarantee that if the church allowed priests to marry and have girlfriends (not while married obviously) vocations in the priesthood would double if not trible.

solice

I kind of agree with you to an extent. But organised religion is not formed around what people want, people are formed areound their religion if you know what i mean. The catholic church shouldnt have to change its beliefs to become more desirable, it could alter its stance on something, for example saying that "condoms are wrong but we accept that they are a good for preventing the spread of STIs but we believe that having one monogamus (my spelling is terrible) relationship would be better" would be good and not going against their beliefs.

To the OP, i live in Maynooth at the moment and there are a few young priests around the place. I havent seen any Irish ones though. The all seem to be of African or South American descent. So i assume that we are going to be receiving missions in a couple of years to fill in the shortages.
Was in mellifont abbey in Meath at the weekend, there was 3 yung priests there, all seemed to be Irish but i couldnt be sure.

Ania

For most non-gay men life without a woman is quite simply uncomprehensible

Hmmm... Robinson Crusoe might disagree!

Talliesin

For most non-gay men life without a woman is quite simply uncomprehensible

Would likely be about the same as life without a man for most gay men.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

neuro-praxis

An article on the slight increase in applicants for the priesthood recently.

UU

It's a shame the Church don't allow priestesses(women priests) and sexual relationships for priests. Maybe they should have a look at the Protestants and even the Jews for example. I find it funny that rabbis are allowed to marry and women can become rabbis(more in Reform Judaism than Orthodox) and I've always considered Jews to be quite old-fashioned but it looks like the Catholic Church has beaten them. Homosexual marriages are even allowed in Reform Judaism! Who ever knew?

catholicireland

Anyway why would anyone want to join or be part of a 2,000yr old lie.

Thats your own opinion. Dont state it as a fact. If your so anti-Church why are you on a Christianity board? Do you say the same for every religion?

Hey all.
Was just thinking the other day how you rarely see any young priests in Ireland. Is anyone even entering the priesthood these days? It seems to me that there will probably be a severe shortage of nuns and priests within about 20 years or so.
What does everyone think? Is anyone here thinking of taking vows or know anybody who is? Just curious.

I know a guy in his 20's who's joining the priesthood so theres one. I dont think you have to worry too much LadyZ

the_syco

12 more priests went to priest school this year (in Maynooth).

netwhizkid

catholicireland wrote:

Thats your own opinion. Dont state it as a fact. If your so anti-Church why are you on a Christianity board? Do you say the same for every religion?

I am not exactly anti-church i was trying to point out the hideous mistakes that the Catholic Church are making. I am very sceptical myself, btw i wasn't stating my opinions as fact or anything for that matter. However can you state as fact that everything that supposdly happened 2,000yrs did actually happen. I am not anti-church like even if the whole thing is a lie and whatever. It is giving people everywhere a sense of belonging and meaning and of course hope to all those whose life well isn't worth tuppence of the eternal paradise they can look forward to. I would just like the church to be more modern, more open and transparent.

Excelsior

What you would like the church to be counts for nothing since you are not in it. Do you often write letters to the IFA or to the Irish Jigsaw Club telling them how you would like them to change?

It can only give them a sense of meaning if it is true, Netwhizkid. For it to mean something it has to be something.

You didn't state an opinion about the Roman Catholic church being a 2000 year old lie. The sentence reads as a declaration of what you consider to be fact. It isn't. There is a huge amount of substantial evidence and thought behind Chrisitianity as you can read if you browse some of the topics on this forum.

Netwhizkid, just soften the attitude a little so as to be more in line with the charter. People will listen to you more readily if you take a calmer approach.

catholicireland

I would just like the church to be more modern, more open and transparent.

Oh right, so if it meets all the new liberal checkpoints on your list then it will not be a lie?? Come on, your not makeing sense.

Anyway why would anyone want to join or be part of a 2,000yr old lie.

nobodythere

Deliberate celibacy makes human go crazy crazy!!!
And so they turn to children...

UU

netwhizkid wrote:

I would just like the church to be more modern, more open and transparent.

So would I, netwhizkid! That's one of the reasons why I'm not Catholic anymore - they make out that homosexuality is evil, and to a certain extent there are a lot of lies within it, such as some clergymen and nuns acting as though they're so holy when you look at cases of child harassment, (even though it isn't a large percentage). I'm not anti-Catholic and I'm not discriminating against the faith but it's not exactly the perfect religion, there is none. There are abuses within Protestantism, Islam, Judaism, etc. too as we're humans at the end of the day and no human is perfect.

I think the Church should try and be a bit more liberal, and open as it would do the religion good. They should certainly allow priests to marry and women to be priests.

P.S. I also think that all state schools should be muti-denominational as in France.

solice

http://www.siglamag.com/blog/2005/08/28/gay-men-need-not-apply/

how true this is i dont know. It will prob reduce the number of people going to seminary even more though
so much for love the sinner and not the sin and all that lark. Typical way of squirming out of a problem, find a scapegoat and call them peadophiles

NeilJ

Can someone please tell me where in the bible it says Priests can't marry and where it says women can't become Priests?? They don't have to change their minds on a lot of issues, but if they want to keep going they are going to have to get rid of a lot of the rules they have made up over the years i.e. celibacy (sp?) etc.

Neil

AndyWarhol

NeilJ wrote:

Can someone please tell me where in the bible it says Priests can't marry and where it says women can't become Priests?? They don't have to change their minds on a lot of issues, but if they want to keep going they are going to have to get rid of a lot of the rules they have made up over the years i.e. celibacy (sp?) etc.

Neil

The Church doesn't 'have' to do anything and is not affected by popular opinion. The Church is not a democracy. Pope Benedict has recently announced that he is going to re-engage in talks with the Pious X breakaways; a sign, I hope, that things are not going to change much. I see this move as a reminder that the Church is grounded in solid foundations.

solice

AndyWarhol wrote:

I see this move as a reminder that the Church is grounded in solid foundations.

Of discrimination, scape goats, blood and war. But that is just my opinion. I do agree that the church shouldnt have to change its beliefs in order to warm to someone

catholicireland

Deliberate celibacy makes human go crazy crazy!!!
And so they turn to children...

So if that was correct, every Catholic priest in the world is a peadophile!
Your jokes are not funny im afraid. :rolleyes:

That's one of the reasons why I'm not Catholic anymore - they make out that homosexuality is evil,

They say its a sin, not evil. I would have to agree with them.

http://www.siglamag.com/blog/2005/0...need-not-apply/

I dont see the problem. I dont want a gay man as my local parish priest to be honest.

Of discrimination, scape goats, blood and war. But that is just my opinion. I do agree that the church shouldnt have to change its beliefs in order to warm to someone

Some people are very strange. :rolleyes: The church is about love of Jesus Christ.

solice

catholicireland wrote:

I dont see the problem. I dont want a gay man as my local parish priest to be honest.

What you want is irrelevant! If a gay man wants to become a priest and dedicate his life to god then tough! Grow up

catholicireland

What you want is irrelevant! If a gay man wants to become a priest and dedicate his life to god then tough! Grow up

Im afraid its not irrelevant. Gay men are banned from being priests so my opinion is the one of the Church and your opinion is the one that is irrelevent im afraid.

Sapien

catholicireland wrote:

Im afraid its not irrelevant. Gay men are banned from being priests so my opinion is the one of the Church and your opinion is the one that is irrelevent im afraid.

Is this true? Are celibate gay men not permitted to be priests?

UU

catholicireland wrote:

Im afraid its not irrelevant. Gay men are banned from being priests so my opinion is the one of the Church and your opinion is the one that is irrelevent im afraid.

You may think our opinions are irrelevent but I think they're very relevent in modern society. You're entitled to your opinions but at this stage in my life I want nothing to do with my old faith and have given up on a conservative, higher-archey church that says you must believe in "this" and you must not believe in "that" and "such and such" is a sin and then contradicts many issues and those become hypocrits(and it's not the only religion). I'm glad I became Unitarian Universalist as now I feel free. Anyway, if I was homosexual and Catholic, I wouldn't want to become a priest into a religion that is hostile towards me because of my sexuality. Sure there are many priests who are gay already . . .

catholicireland wrote:

Some people are very strange. The church is about love of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, I've also come to that conclusion too - a church body full of old priests who claim themselves to be so holy when many are just the same as any ordinary person, don't marry and procreate and ban woman from entering the priesthood. I'm sure it's about the love of Christ but I'd love if Christ would come back down and give the church a wake up call to today's changing society!

I don't meen to sound offensive and anti-Catholic which I am not. In fact I believe every religion of the world has something unique to offer but I just think for their own sake, that the church should try to become more in touch with modern times and more accepting of different people and that's very much my own opinion. Thank you.

LadyJ

Sapien wrote:

Is this true? Are celibate gay men not permitted to be priests?

Good point. What difference does it make if you're gay or straight as long as you're celibate?
It's not like priests don't have desires. Whether gay or straight it shouldn't matter as long as they don't act on it. In fact,being a catholic priest might as well be a form of sexuality all on it's own considering you lie with neither man or woman.

Cathy

catholicireland, I was under the impression that the church doesn't consider homosexuals "bad", unless they're actively homosexual. If they're celibate, I thought it wasn't a problem.
If a priest is celibate, as they're supposed to be, then what difference does it make if they're gay or straight?

UU

catholicireland wrote:

Im afraid its not irrelevant. Gay men are banned from being priests so my opinion is the one of the Church and your opinion is the one that is irrelevent im afraid.

Catholicireland, if priests are supposed to be celibate then why are gay ones exluded from entering priesthood as heterosexual ones aren't allowed to have a sexual relationship anyway and if a priest is caught having a relationship with a female, he is in serious trouble. Sapien, LadyJ and Cathy all made very good (and obvious) points and I thank them for pointing them out to me.

And what is the real reason why priests have to be celibate anyway other than the church's financial reasons. I mean they're only human and God obviously intended for humans to have sexual relationships - straight and gay. How can priests possibly join two people in matrimony, discourage divorce and give marriage conselling if they don't understand relationships fully and can't experience it! Please reply as I would really like to know. Thank you.

Excelsior

Only the Roman Catholic church has the concept of enforced celibacy for its ordained ministers. Other Christian traditions have voluntary celibacy or no policy.

Cardinal John Henry Newman, father of a mini Catholic revival, a superb pastor, essentially the founder of UCD and arguably the finest Catholic theologian of the 1800s was a celibate homosexual.

Henri Nouwen, Havard professor, world acclaimed author and minister to adults with special needs was a celibate homosexual.

These are just the two most prominent examples of a proud and noble tradition within Roman Catholicism- straight and gay are entitled to be ordained since it isn't being gay that is wrong, but homosexual acts. (Homosexual acts by the way, are no more sinful than heterosexual acts outside of marriage).

Catholicireland, you really shouldn't have to be corrected on your own doctrine by a Prod like me.

robindch

> Only the Roman Catholic church has the concept of
> enforced celibacy for its ordained ministers. Other
> Christian traditions have voluntary celibacy or no policy.

Not quite right.

I was going to try and summarize some of the interesting and varied customs + rules which govern some of the species of christianity here, but there are too many, what with the Protestant, Orthodox, Maronite, Copt, Nestorian, Melchite (etc, etc), traditions; the mutual differences being frequently minor and picky. This page gives a reasonable summary of the customs which attach to some of the churches.

In addition to a tendency to ignore non-celibate priests in many African countries, the RC church does, more formally, permit marriage of priests in the Uniate church, present in the west of Ukraine -- the transfer of the then-current Orthodox customs and priestly privilege apparently having been one of the bargaining chips during the negotiations for the shift of allegiance.

Strange (or, perhaps not) (a) that this factoid concerning the Uniate church is missing from the Catholic page above, despite it mentioning the Nestorians, a far smaller and less important group; (b) the RC church seems to be more interested in growing, than in sticking to the letter of its own "moral" pronouncements concerning its priesthood; (c) that the christian priesthood has been required to be celibate for less than half of the history of the christian churches (see the same article again).

Excelsior

Sorry Robin and thanks for the clarification. With 37,000 denominations out there I guess I was generalising unwisely.

In Ireland, only one susbstantial tradition enforces celibacy and that is Roman Catholicism.

Asiaprod

Correct me if I am wrong but did not the catholic church in Spain just ordain A former Anglican cleric who is married?


AP News
MADRID, Spain - A former Anglican cleric who is married has been ordained a Catholic priest — a first for the church in Spain.

Zimbabwe-born Evans David Gliwitzki, 64, was ordained in the town of La Laguna on the island of Tenerife by Bishop Felipe Fernandez, the bishop’s office said Monday on its Web site.

The office said the ordination had the full support of the late Pope John Paul II and Spain’s Roman Catholic Church. It said it was an exceptional case and did not in any way signal a departure from the Catholic Church’s insistence that its priests be celibate.

robindch

> Correct me if I am wrong but did not the catholic church
> in Spain just ordain A former Anglican cleric who is married?

Yes, that's right -- a slightly longer article appeared on the BBC website at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4172162.stm.

As above, the RC church is more interested in adding bodyweight than in sticking to the letter of its own moral pronouncements.

BTW, readers may wish to compare and contrast Mr Ratzinger's pronouncements the previous day, with the actions of his bishops the next:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4170204.stm

patzer117

Getting back to priests dying out i personally can see every reason why. I'm not concerned about the church being out of touch and having to alter its doctrine, I'm concerned that priests are out of touch and are killing off the religion.

I'll give you an example of my local sermon a short ago - the priest decided it would be a good time to talk about appropriate behavioural practises at funerals, with the idea of making the next funeral you were at 'better'. He asked for people to be considerate to the church and to leave all personal things from the dead person behind and that a picture should suffice.

A few weeks later I was at a funeral of my great aunt and (while the priest wasn't the same), the celebrant gave a sermon on recognising the challenges of religion and important passages in the bible about it. Not once did he mention anything about my great aunt.

Now i'm no religious freak, nor am i thinking about becoming a priest, but there were many gathered for both sermons and frankly they were both unfathomably boring and inconcievably inappropriate. The examples shown are not unusual for me and many ridiculous sermons are given every month in my parish. If the church wants more volunteers then they have to do a better job of making themselves look good, making themselves interesting and making vocations more attractive than blabbering on irrelevantly in monotone for 15 minutes to a congregation of dying old folks and sleeping kids.

I hope things will improve

patzer

Excelsior

Pop down to your local Presbyterian church if you want a good sermon.

Seriously though, I think you've put your finger on one of the major challenges facing the Catholic church. Even though I stopped being a Catholic a decade ago and stopped going to mass in my parish 7 years ago, I still get the chance to go to mass quite often around the place.

And typically, the sermons are one of either two things:
a) Obscure moralism that has no relevance to people's lives
or
b) New-agey type messages to appease a hostile crowd along the lines of "sure aren't we all going in the same direction".

The problem is that neither of those roads lead to Christianity. And neither of them are helpful to the congregation. And just simply from the priest's perspective, they're hard roads to make interesting. And as you've said yourself, they don't inspire you to get more involved in your faith.

And so what we see in the Roman Catholic church isn't a society that has moved on from such "fairy tales" and "myths". Irish society needs the Gospel as much now as ever. But instead we see a Roman Catholic church who is starving its membership of anything true or substantial to think about and apply to their lives and to worship. And so the membership is wasting away before our eyes.

robindch

> back to priests dying out i personally can see every reason why.

Ratzinger's forthcoming announcements of God's most recently updated wishes for His employees isn't going to do much to help to reverse the accelerating slide into oblivion:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4276912.stm

The census, as ever, makes fascinating reading -- in this instance, Volume 6 on Occupations (http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/vol6_entire.pdf), which shows that there's been a 40% drop in religious workers between 1996 and 2002. It will be interesting to see, from next year's census, if this massive rate of loss will be sustained.