50% happy for Sinn Féin to enter coalition

tomMK1

tomMK1 wrote:

born and bred in omagh, I now live in the south.

Ah I see

As for the unions - thats great. sit back, do nothing and then blame Sinn fein for having airy fairy ideas - in other words, someone will have to deal with the unions sooner or later, but thats a different story for another day.

and for another thread but it's a significant lobby group.

and yes, 3 billion BUT - im not a politician ... its not my job to save government money .. i was just pointing out that really, there ARE ways of saving money

I understand that, but surely SF should be explaining where it intends to finance its projects and not in general terms but specefically

(and more than likely raising it too) so this idea that SFs policys are utter crap - all said without any supporting evidence - sounds like sour grapes to me. oh SF might be getting somewhere, lets talk crap about them - thats what seems to be going on. too much giving out and not enough brain usage.

Again to be frank with you we are talking economic policies in this instance and you can be damn sure that any party would be scrutinised when it comes to people deciding whether to vote for them and thats proper order.
The only way to counter the accusations as to where the money would come from would be to show people the money( almost a bad film pun I know )

And as regards this board it's a general politics board and there are people here who will be uber critical and logically so of any parties policies.
Arent you glad that the discussion has moved(at least for now) onto bread and butter issues?

tomMK1

Earthman wrote:

and for another thread but it's a significant lobby group.

oh god i know....the whole 'have to be 3 years employed in an LA' to go permanent thing was doing my head in

And as regards this board it's a general politics board and there are people here who will be uber critical and logically so of any parties policies.

true

Arent you glad that the discussion has moved(at least for now) onto bread and butter issues?

haha! ... yeah, very true.

supersheep

gurramok wrote:

Yes they do. If you mentioned the bogside to any, they would probably think you are talking about some bog in Co. Laois!...that would be true for any Dub of any social class.
To answer supersheep's assertion about Cavan, rural SF voters are mostly traditionalists, urban ones are the mostly new voters who are mostly working class that would have voted Lab\FF in the past but are searching for something new on offer.

To answer your second question, why should I?..I didnt vote for them. Plenty in my estate did, they feel ignored by all parties that have being in govt..FF, FG, PD, Lab...Greens don't help since they align themselves with FG.

Maybe the older people are, but what about the youngsters signing "Up the 'ra!" and all that crap in my local 'dishcow' at three in the morning last Saturday night? They sure as hell aren't traditionalists, and they support SF because they are linked to the IRA, not cos they are marginalised... Now, that may be only for the country, but I doubt it...

Hagar

tomMK1 wrote:

where can the money come from?

Well they could always go back to their roots and rob the banks.
Those fúckers have been robbing us all for years.

daveirl

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rsynnott

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

And at that, will they do it, or is their socialist-esqe politics (which is inconsistant at the best of times in any case) simply a route to power? See a niche, jump in it?

Propocus

Going back to the original post - not surprised about the percentage really but then I guess most of these people haven't heard about the murder of Joseph Rafferty in D15..

That asides this won't make a difference to the "Me-Feiners" that are growing ever more abundant in this country unless of course SFIRA insist on raising taxes - then I am afraid they will be doomed at the ballot box since I think that the average voter is slightly more economically literate than the comrade that developed SFIRAs pseudo-Stalinist policies. (Who does Mary-Lou sit beside in
Europe again?......)

Dave!

That's good news to me. I would never have voted for SF while they're still associated with a violent IRA, who do nothing but hinder the peace process and rob and kill their own people, but if they destroy their weapons, then I can consider voting for SF. They're not only party radical enough to get a united Ireland, but I won't be voting for them until I read into the rest of their policies. I have their most recent manifesto, haven't looked at it yet though.

Sarsfield

On the original point, 50% not objecting to SF in government doesn't translate into anything real. I've no objection to the PDs being in government as they were democratically elected. But I wouldn't vote for them in a million years.

At to the PAYE thing, the SF 2005 pre-budget submission proposed a 50% income tax on earnings over €100K

http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/document/192/5

I supply this as information only. If SF ever gets into government I'll be heading straight for the airport along with a lot of others (and no, I don't earn anything close to 100K)

rsynnott

I actually think high tax for the very wealthy is a good idea. That said, I'd head for the UK; I don't want to live in a country run by terrorists.

supersheep

How about a country run by ex-terrorists?

rsynnott

supersheep wrote:

How about a country run by ex-terrorists?

Oh, that's MUCH better, of course. And I'll believe the ex-terrorist bit when they haven't blown anyone up, shot anyone or intimidated anyone for, say, 15 years?

supersheep

Seeing as this country was FOUNDED by ex-terrorists, you probably should jump on the next flight out of the country, then... Actually, that's even worse than it being run by ex-terrorists - it's obviously based on crazy ex-terrorist principles which aren't very nice because they're terrorists.

rsynnott

supersheep wrote:

Seeing as this country was FOUNDED by ex-terrorists, you probably should jump on the next flight out of the country, then... Actually, that's even worse than it being run by ex-terrorists - it's obviously based on crazy ex-terrorist principles which aren't very nice because they're terrorists.

Well, it was a bit of a nightmare till quite recently, you know; the EU has helped sweep away most of the Church-imposed nonsense though.

supersheep

supersheep wrote:

Seeing as this country was FOUNDED by ex-terrorists, you probably should jump on the next flight out of the country, then... Actually, that's even worse than it being run by ex-terrorists - it's obviously based on crazy ex-terrorist principles which aren't very nice because they're terrorists.

Bad logic unless you want to go back to all of societies rules from then.
One of them would be short pants if your under 18.
And dont even think of being allowed to vote at 18 if you are a man or over 21 if you arent a householder and God forbid a woman under 30 full stop or over 30 who isnt a householder, the wife of a householder, an occupier of property with an annual rent of £5 or a graduate of British universities...

What went on in 1918 or the spanish inquisition isn't requisite for the standards of 2005.

supersheep

I'm just making the point that the extremists of today are the centrists of tomorrow. Fianna Fáil, in my opinion, were just as bad as Sinn Féin, what with their Civil War and taking the oath and everything - indeed, the parallels between the two parties are fairly striking...
So, maybe, Sinn Féin will turn out to be just another political party - actually, probably, as once they get the tiniest whiff of power, I'd say they'll do ANYTHING to get their hands on it, just like every other party.

rsynnott

So, I should vote SF, because they'll be just like FF in 50 years? What?

supersheep

I'm saying that it's a pretty stupid thing to run for the hills just because your country is run by a political party you don't like, and see as terrorists, seeing as they're going to turn out just like Fianna Fáil and the rest of our political parties in a few years.
Anyways, running is a coward's option. You don't like Sinn Féin, stay here, make their life hell. I know I'm not going to be sitting on my hands going "Yay" when they get into power.

supersheep

supersheep wrote:

I'm just making the point that the extremists of today are the centrists of tomorrow.

Which I'm saying is bad logic because you are cherry picking one value from the turn of the century(terrorism) and saying it's alright in the here and now because of that...you shouldnt cherry pick,you should take it all if you want to justify what most people would think wrong today but accepted nearly a 100 years ago for whatever reason.

Fianna Fáil, in my opinion, were just as bad as Sinn Féin, what with their Civil War and taking the oath and everything - indeed, the parallels between the two parties are fairly striking...

What?? SF today advocate boys up untill 18 walking around in short pants,women not voting till they are 30,voting based on house ownership/rent values do they? Thats news to me.
Those are just the small things,theres loads more.

So, maybe, Sinn Féin will turn out to be just another political party - actually, probably, as once they get the tiniest whiff of power, I'd say they'll do ANYTHING to get their hands on it, just like every other party.

Some would say they are like that already, which is why a term in power as part of a coalition might be no harm to them as people might soon find out that talk is cheap but action is expensive,

You've got to realise that this is 2005 and not the early 1900's , things have moved on big time.

Calina

supersheep wrote:

I'm saying that it's a pretty stupid thing to run for the hills just because your country is run by a political party you don't like, and see as terrorists, seeing as they're going to turn out just like Fianna Fáil and the rest of our political parties in a few years.
Anyways, running is a coward's option. You don't like Sinn Féin, stay here, make their life hell. I know I'm not going to be sitting on my hands going "Yay" when they get into power.

Yes, well if I'm going to vote for them I'd rather wait until they were just like Fianna Fail in 50 years time rather than start now when they're still somewhat ambivalent about guerilla warfare.

rsynnott

supersheep wrote:

I'm saying that it's a pretty stupid thing to run for the hills just because your country is run by a political party you don't like, and see as terrorists, seeing as they're going to turn out just like Fianna Fáil and the rest of our political parties in a few years.
Anyways, running is a coward's option. You don't like Sinn Féin, stay here, make their life hell. I know I'm not going to be sitting on my hands going "Yay" when they get into power.

Nah, considering the way they treat dissenters in the north, I'd feel happier in a democratic country.

donkeyrobot

how do they treat dissenters in the north. sinn fein that is?

donkeyrobot

anyway ... look at the state of the country at the minute. A bunch of monkeys would make a better job of it

Hagar

Could somebody please give a clear definition of a "terrorist".

It seems to mean anybody who wants to upset the status quo by means of arms.

Considering most states have risen out of conflict surely almost every government in existance now was at one stage a "terrorist organisation" in that it overthrew the status quo by means of arms. The respectability came later.

rsynnott

The ones who persistantly terrorise and kill innocent people while there is a legitimate peaceful political negotiation ongoing, to be honest. Or where the cause is completely unjust, but that's quite unusual.

supersheep

Earthman wrote:

Which I'm saying is bad logic because you are cherry picking one value from the turn of the century(terrorism) and saying it's alright in the here and now because of that...you shouldnt cherry pick,you should take it all if you want to justify what most people would think wrong today but accepted nearly a 100 years ago for whatever reason.

I missed the part where I said it was all right. What I am saying is that legitimate political parties have often sprung from terrorist movements - like Fianna Fáil. So it's not exactly fair to say that political wing of a potentially ex-terrorist organisation must be evil bad people when they get into power.

Earthman wrote:

What?? SF today advocate boys up untill 18 walking around in short pants,women not voting till they are 30,voting based on house ownership/rent values do they? Thats news to me.
Those are just the small things,theres loads more.

I was talking more along the lines of starting an armed conflict, killing loads of Irish people, and then a few years later, turning around and saying, oh yeah, remember those things we went to war over? They're not that important, we'll be taking our seats in parliament now...

supersheep

rsynnott wrote:

Nah, considering the way they treat dissenters in the north, I'd feel happier in a democratic country.

If they are voted into power, it's a democratic country. Unless they pass An Actáil Enablachta or start shooting opposition party members, the election of Sinn Féin in a democratic election is not going to suddenly make Ireland undemocratic.

rsynnott

supersheep wrote:

start shooting opposition party members

They'd NEVER EVER shoot innocent people who don't agree with them!

supersheep wrote:

I missed the part where I said it was all right. What I am saying is that legitimate political parties have often sprung from terrorist movements - like Fianna Fáil. So it's not exactly fair to say that political wing of a potentially ex-terrorist organisation must be evil bad people when they get into power.

And for a number of decades after they got into power, many of them were evil bad people. Some, in fact, still are, though on unrelated reasons. And the terrorists back then had a far more legitimate case for their terrorism than the various incarnations of the IRA do in the last couple of decades.

supersheep

rsynnott wrote:

They'd NEVER EVER shoot innocent people who don't agree with them!

OK, when they get into power and start doing that and trying to erode our democratic freedoms, then yes, you can say that it isn't a democracy. Til then, though, it still is.

rsynnott wrote:

And for a number of decades after they got into power, many of them were evil bad people. Some, in fact, still are, though on unrelated reasons. And the terrorists back then had a far more legitimate case for their terrorism than the various incarnations of the IRA do in the last couple of decades.

Both groups were fighting for freedom from the British. Anyways, the legitimacy of a cause is a matter of opinion. I'll agree with you on the bad people - and quite honestly I believe the people back then were worse than those now. Especially Dev.

Dave!

rsynnott wrote:

So, I should vote SF, because they'll be just like FF in 50 years? What?

Nah, you should vote for SF because they're the only party who give a shit about getting a united Ireland.

rsynnott wrote:

The ones who persistantly terrorise and kill innocent people while there is a legitimate peaceful political negotiation ongoing, to be honest. Or where the cause is completely unjust, but that's quite unusual.

I hope you're not suggesting that Sinn Féin/IRA's cause is unjust(though I don't think you are)... I don't support the IRA cos all they do is hinder the movement, but their cause is very very just.