50% happy for Sinn Féin to enter coalition

rsynnott

DaveMcG wrote:

Nah, you should vote for SF because they're the only party who give a shit about getting a united Ireland.

This is the united Ireland that the majority of the citizens of NI don't want, yep?

DaveMcG wrote:

I hope you're not suggesting that Sinn Féin/IRA's cause is unjust(though I don't think you are)... I don't support the IRA cos all they do is hinder the movement, but their cause is very very just.

I don't think the cause is particularly just (the majority of the population of NI don't support it; remember democracy?), and the IRA certainly doesn't help it.

Dave!

I think the fact that the Unionists were actually PLACED in Ireland by the British during the Plantations kinda skews the whole thing... The British had no right here in the first place, so, why does this even have to be discussed? Other than the fact that there would be an all-out civil war in the North if they left, there is absolutely no reason for them to be there. It's a joke that we had to bargain them into only keeping 1/4 of our country just because we're too small to oust them by force.

rsynnott

DaveMcG wrote:

I think the fact that the Unionists were actually PLACED in Ireland by the British during the Plantations

You know, hundreds of years ago. It's a little-known fact that unionists don't reproduce, and live for millenia.

Dave!

Yes, hundreds of years ago, but beliefs and political persuasions are passed through families, in case you've failed to notice(hence why kids end up being brought to church)... If someone's father was killed by the IRA, the family might be somewhat peeved, and might pass on these feelings to their children, etc... It's obviously not to the same extent as it used to be, but in the 17th century, you didn't contradict your father's beliefs. Hence how there is still a large Unionist population in the North; because "hundreds of years ago", their ancestors were PUT there, and the people who actually OWNED the land were fucked out.

But way to argue, sarcasm sure is intelligent! :eek:

I think the fact that the Unionists were actually PLACED in Ireland by the British during the Plantations kinda skews the whole thing... The British had no right here in the first place, so, why does this even have to be discussed?

Ever hear of the right of conquest? looking back 700 years and trying to use our current laws/morals aren't going to get you anywhere. England's right to the plantations comes from the Irish inability to defend Ireland, and the irish lords accepting bribes from the English.

billy the squid

Theres only one opinion poll that matters, and that is the one that the whole country is invited to take part in every five years or so. and this recent "historic announcement" (the latest of many "historic announcements") will be forgotten like all the rest when it isnt followed up by action, whether it be the decommissioning of weapons or the condemnation of acts of violence.

DaveMcG wrote:

Nah, you should vote for SF because they're the only party who give a **** about getting a united Ireland.

correct, they are the only ones who give a **** about a united Ireland. the rest of us have moved on. A united Ireland would be a drain on our exchequor and would result in an increase in taxes. Personally I think the 26 counties is better off without the north, why , we dont have to pay for the running of it, and we dont have to put up with Nationalists and Unionists acting like children and bickering over who should be allowed to march down what road and when, when there are more serious things happening in their community like poverty, homelessness and drug abuse.

Hagar

Deleted User wrote:

Ever hear of the right of conquest? looking back 700 years and trying to use our current laws/morals aren't going to get you anywhere. England's right to the plantations comes from the Irish inability to defend Ireland, and the irish lords accepting bribes from the English.

Does that mean if we can take it back by force, any weapons we can lay our hands on, we can take it and keep it?

rsynnott

Hagar wrote:

Does that mean if we can take it back by force, any weapons we can lay our hands on, we can take it and keep it?

If you can keep it for a few hundred years... No-one will complain too much. That wouldn't of course, make it right, but after a few hundred years it's largely irrelevant.

LordSutch

DaveMcG wrote:

That's good news to me. I would never have voted for SF while they're still associated with a violent IRA, who do nothing but hinder the peace process and rob and kill their own people, but if they destroy their weapons, then I can consider voting for SF. They're not only party radical enough to get a united Ireland, but I won't be voting for them until I read into the rest of their policies. I have their most recent manifesto, haven't looked at it yet though.

The problem I have with Sinn Fein/IRA is that they will never say No to the fact that 64% of the people of the North consider themselves British and as such these Northern Brits do not want the North to leave the UK! and we in the South have agreed to that (Belfast agreement) but The Shinners insist that they must leave the UK by all costs and become Irish (like it or not)!
May I suggest that until the Shinners get it into their heads that the Unionist/ Protestant/ British peoples of the North do not want to be coersed out of the UK, then I will always have a problem with Sinn Fein/IRA because they are constantly at the heart of friction and unrest on this Island.

rsynnott

Yes, their contept for democracy is worrying. No matter what basis the state was created on, it is a democratic state with a right to self-determination.

supersheep

rsynnott wrote:

If you can keep it for a few hundred years... No-one will complain too much. That wouldn't of course, make it right, but after a few hundred years it's largely irrelevant.

So, by that token, you obviously believe that the Unionist plantations were wrong, yes?

Hobbes

DaveMcG wrote:

Nah, you should vote for SF because they're the only party who give a shit about getting a united Ireland.

And that is a high priority why?

cal29

ArthurF wrote:

The problem I have with Sinn Fein/IRA is that they will never say No to the fact that 64% of the people of the North consider themselves British and as such these Northern Brits do not want the North to leave the UK! and we in the South have agreed to that (Belfast agreement) but The Shinners insist that they must leave the UK by all costs and become Irish (like it or not)!
May I suggest that until the Shinners get it into their heads that the Unionist/ Protestant/ British peoples of the North do not want to be coersed out of the UK, then I will always have a problem with Sinn Fein/IRA because they are constantly at the heart of friction and unrest on this Island.

Just because A majority of the people in the six counties want to be part of the UK at the moment does not mean that there is anything undemocratic about Sinn Fein wanting to change their views and campaigning for a United Ireland


One could equally argue that when will the Unionist get it in to their head that the majority of people in the 32 counties do not want to be British and want a United Ireland free from the UK


So in your Opinion SF should give up on a united Ireland because a majority in the Six counties ( and it is a shrinking majority) dont want a united Ireland despite the fact that the people who vote for them want it and the vast majority of the people of the 32 counties want it

Perhaps they should become a unionist party would you be happy then

As far as I can see SF have accepted that at the moment the majority of people in the 6 counties want to remain in the UK they have pledged to use exclusively peaceful means to change that position that is what democracy is all about

You accept the current position even though you fundamentaly disagree with it and work to change it

We dont all have to join FF because they win an election we accept that they have and we work to change it

cal29

rsynnott wrote:

Yes, their contept for democracy is worrying. No matter what basis the state was created on, it is a democratic state with a right to self-determination.

Explain please how is being for a United Ireland undemocratic are the SDLP who also claim to ber in favour of unity undemocratic

do you believe that SF should become Unionists

No matter what basis the state was created on ??

can I take it that if the Irish army invaded the North tomorrow and we had a free and fair democratic 32 county election to leinster house straight away that you would have no problems as it would be a democratic state with a right to self determination amd the basis on which this new state was founded would not matter

cal29

Hobbes wrote:

And that is a high priority why?

Because this is a Democracy and individual voters can choose what they believe the priorities should be This person believes unity should be a priority you are free to disagree.

President4Life

I don't want Marxist SF in government in this republic. But I do concede that there is a case that if we in the South are going to demand that the DUP shares power with SF, that our politicians should at least be willing to consider entering govt with SF if they change some of their more business-phobic policies including raising corporation tax. They should decommission first and end involvement in criminality of course. After all, if someone reporting FF involvement in a bank-robbery or drug-dealing imagine what the public reaction would be.

FTA69

Since when has Sinn Féin (or the IRA for that matter) been involved in drug-dealing?

President4Life

FTA69 wrote:

Since when has Sinn Féin (or the IRA for that matter) been involved in drug-dealing?

It has been alleged by some that they have in the past sub-contracted drug-dealing out to criminals.

Stabshauptmann

rsynnott wrote:

This is the united Ireland that the majority of the citizens of NI don't want, yep?


I don't think the cause is particularly just (the majority of the population of NI don't support it; remember democracy?), and the IRA certainly doesn't help it.

It doesnt matter that the majority of ppl in NI were happy with the status quo prior to the troubles. The blatent racism and discrimination by the state, and encouraged by the state in areas such as voting, employment, social housing, policing and eduction was appalling.

The pogroms of the late 60s which the establishment encouraged or at the very least allowed happen brought the IRA back from the dead. The average joe didnt just say on day, lets give a UI another crack - those finding themselves forced to leave there homes, attacked as they walked down the street or the victum of mob aggression as they peacefully protest sought an army to protect them.

I think we'd all agree that extremism is a bad thing. Personally, I view the over simplification some ppl employ as a form of extremism. But thats not something I expect everyone to agree with. But it has to be pointe out that the IRA had its largest membership and support in 1972. After sunnigdale it went a bit down hill. For the majority of nationalists who supported the IRA, support didnt centre around a desire to see a united Ireland. The IRA were seen as defenders.

How good a job they did is debateable. How defence could be linked to offence is debateable. Everything is debatable and as a wiser man than me said, truth depends on where you're standing.

But ti stay on topic. I think SF spouts some socialist nonesense because they think it will win votes. FF noticed this and started to do the same. FF are by no means socialist. One would easily confuse Ogra FF for young SF. Its all whiskey, the dubliners, tricolours and free public transport for everyone.

SF are a political party. They want power. They will say and do anything to get it. Many ppl have shown cases of their hypocracy. So what? Principals dont win elections. I think SF brought more home from the US than money

Stabshauptmann

I thought the allegations were that they tax the drugs trade. TBH they dont have the power to stop it, not anymore anyway.

I believe the son of a prominant local IRA man sells cocaine in my area. But I know the brother and son of a local FF councilor sells hash.

My point, there are ppl from all backrounds who have connections to drugs, but iirc no SF or IRA member has been convicted for drug ofences and the IRA has a record (maybe its for show / once again we can debate if this was "just" or not...) for taking out drug dealers. Also the RUC/PSNI/Gardaí have never accused the IRA of being involved in drugs

Nuttzz

I just cant believe that people think that loyalists will accept a united Ireland, the nationalists fought against British rule while they were in the minority, when the loyalists are in the minority do you not think they will fight Dublin rule in a united Ireland?

Are we willing to invest the money to expand our defence forces and police to fill the vacuum of the British army leaving and replacing the psni? The left have a fit every time the army buys news equipment as it is (for example the armoured cars they bought to use on UN missions).

Do you want to see Irish soldiers being killed on sandy row for some fanciful united Ireland dream? I don't......

Stabshauptmann

Having SF in a coallition on monday wont lead to a UI on tuesday.

The fuel for the IRA was the maltreatment of catholics by the state. I doubt our government would be so stupid as to bring in such racist and oppressive legislation if there were a UI.

But what would happen if there were to be a UI is totally off topic to SF forming part of a coallition in the RoI since only a majority of voters in NI can change the fact that NI is part of the UK

President4Life

Nuttzz wrote:

I just cant believe that people think that loyalists will accept a united Ireland, the nationalists fought against British rule while they were in the minority, when the loyalists are in the minority do you not think they will fight Dublin rule in a united Ireland?

Are we willing to invest the money to expand our defence forces and police to fill the vacuum of the British army leaving and replacing the psni? The left have a fit every time the army buys news equipment as it is (for example the armoured cars they bought to use on UN missions).

Do you want to see Irish soldiers being killed on sandy row for some fanciful united Ireland dream? I don't......

Protestant and Catholic votes have to be equal before the law. If a majority in NI vote for a UI then it must happen. For the Brits to use their army to force NI to stay in the UK against its will would be an unacceptable outrage that would lead to far greater terrorism than just implementing the result of a referendum.

Polls consistently show at least 73% of Protestants in NI would accept a UI if a majority there voted for it, and it is not the case by any means that the remaining 27% are all differing in this view. A Neanderthal minority of the Unionists may insist on refusing to accept democracy, but they will just have to be dragged into the 2?th century. Democracy must not yield to Unionist terrorism. Anyway, the IRA were trying to get a UI - something that all the main Southern parties claim to support. The main parties in the UK have accepted that a UI will happen if a majority in NI vote for it, so the context is different. What would the point of Loyalist terrorism be in a UI, considering that the UK, and certainly the UK taxpayer, would not wan't them no more having already extricated themselves from NI, which the British people rightly consider a foreign country?

lynchiered

Nuttzz wrote:

I just cant believe that people think that loyalists will accept a united Ireland, the nationalists fought against British rule while they were in the minority, when the loyalists are in the minority do you not think they will fight Dublin rule in a united Ireland?

Are we willing to invest the money to expand our defence forces and police to fill the vacuum of the British army leaving and replacing the psni? The left have a fit every time the army buys news equipment as it is (for example the armoured cars they bought to use on UN missions).

Do you want to see Irish soldiers being killed on sandy row for some fanciful united Ireland dream? I don't......

Well if you look at the benefit loyalists will gain from a united Ireland you will soon change your mind. ie Better health system, Education system, Trainsport, fisherys, all of these services will be implamented on a 32 bases, given a people a better service. Plus who are the most likely party for the DUP or the UUP to go into coalition in the south??? Fianna Gail!! They could be in goverment for god sack!!! Its all Good!!. Bring of Unity lets Make Partition History

rsynnott

lynchiered wrote:

Well if you look at the benefit loyalists will gain from a united Ireland you will soon change your mind. ie Better health system, Education system, Trainsport,

Do you live on a different planet?

President4Life wrote:

Protestant and Catholic votes have to be equal before the law. If a majority in NI vote for a UI then it must happen. For the Brits to use their army to force NI to stay in the UK against its will would be an unacceptable outrage that would lead to far greater terrorism than just implementing the result of a referendum.

Certainly, assuming that such a referendum is held, that MORE THAN 50% of the population vote for it (unlikely to impossible) and that Ireland (ROI) accepts them. The first two are virtually impossible, the last is dubious.

President4Life

rsynnott wrote:

Do you live on a different planet?



Certainly, assuming that such a referendum is held, that MORE THAN 50% of the population vote for it (unlikely to impossible) and that Ireland (ROI) accepts them. The first two are virtually impossible, the last is dubious.

Do you mean over 50% of those who vote? A simple majority in a referendum will suffice. In an age where terrorism is universally condemned, we should not pander to potential Unionist terrorism. Democracy must rule and Neanderthals must be brought to heel if they try to prevent that. It is not dubious that a majority in the South would support a UI, provided immigrants don't outnumber us down here by then, that is. Polls always show an overall majority of the Irish people want a UI.

rsynnott

President4Life wrote:

Do you mean over 50% of those who vote? A simple majority in a referendum will suffice. In an age where terrorism is universally condemned, we should not pander to potential Unionist terrorism. Democracy must rule and Neanderthals must be brought to heel if they try to prevent that. It is not dubious that a majority in the South would support a UI, provided immigrants don't outnumber us down here by then, that is. Polls always show an overall majority of the Irish people want a UI.

The government may not want the trouble, though. It would be frighteningly expensive, and we'd be left with Unionist terrorism, as you say, plus lots of trouble from out-of-a-vocation IRA criminals. In any case, it seems highly improbable that NI would vote to join.

supersheep

supersheep wrote:

rsynnott wrote:

If you can keep it for a few hundred years... No-one will complain too much. That wouldn't of course, make it right, but after a few hundred years it's largely irrelevant.

So, by that token, you obviously believe that the Unionist plantations were wrong, yes?

<gentle cough> I guess you missed this...

rsynnott

supersheep wrote:

<gentle cough> I guess you missed this...

Hmm? Yes, of course they were wrong; invasion for national gain is never acceptable. But that WAS quite a long time ago...

President4Life

rsynnott wrote:

The government may not want the trouble, though. It would be frighteningly expensive, and we'd be left with Unionist terrorism, as you say, plus lots of trouble from out-of-a-vocation IRA criminals. In any case, it seems highly improbable that NI would vote to join.

Improbable now yes. But not indefinitely. It could well happen if Nationalists were in the future to comprise the great majority of the population. Maybe it will be 20, 50 or even 100 years but I believe it will happen provided we do not allow non-Irish people to outnumber us and erode the element of Irish national identity that feels an affinity with Northern nationalism.

Hmm? Yes, of course they were wrong; invasion for national gain is never acceptable. But that WAS quite a long time ago...
.................
If you can keep it for a few hundred years... No-one will complain too much. That wouldn't of course, make it right, but after a few hundred years it's largely irrelevant.

Yes and it was a hell of a long time ago from 1169 and 1922 when we got our independence. Obviously the Irish people did not feel then that the fact Britain had ruled us for 724 years made it somehow "okay" due to the length of time since the invasion. Then partition does not deserve to be considered "right" either.