Anyone else sick of IT Career?

Hobbes · 16-08-2005 6:19am

the_syco wrote:

I'm a geek. You'll see middle-management weenies doing their job. Thats the difference between all the weenies and the geeks. For the weenies, this is a job. To make lots of money. For the geeks, its about how much we enjoy it. How much we live for it. Its no longer a weekend hobby, its how we earn our income.

Thats what your manager tells you guys everyday I bet.

"Don't think of the money, your doing something great!"

Hobbes · 16-08-2005 6:26am

secret_squirrel wrote:

Which gets me onto my other bugbear - I dont believe non-IT management have any idea how to use IT most effectively. (Which is why outsourcing is so popular.) You very rarely get a non-HR manager at the senior HR level - the same should be true of IT.

Outsourcing is so popular because it saves* insane amounts of money. There are positives and negatives but I got a demo from a manager of what they factor into it when costing a normal engineer vs an outsourced one. It goes way beyond benefits and pay. They would even factor down the price of hardware used, electricity used, phone, stress of dealing with employee to keeping them happy. Etc.

Zaph0d.. Excellent piece.

* relative term. Should be insanely cheaper vs inhouse. Saving money is a questionable issue.

bonkey · 16-08-2005 8:08am

the_syco wrote:

I'm a geek. You'll see middle-management weenies doing their job. Thats the difference between all the weenies and the geeks. For the weenies, this is a job. To make lots of money. For the geeks, its about how much we enjoy it. How much we live for it. Its no longer a weekend hobby, its how we earn our income.

You seem to be implying that a geek is a programmer, and middle-management are all money-grabbing weenies.

What about money-grabbing weenies who aren't in middle-management? Or geeks who are?

Oh, and the difference between middle-management, and higher-management, is that a PC will take a week or two to be set up for the middle management people, but has to be done within 2 days for the higher-management. Thats the difference.

In your experience.

In the company I work for, the owner will ask that something on his machine be done when the techies can find time from doing their "real" job. Except, of course, when his need is ultra-urgent (like preparing a machien to give a presentation to get work for his programmers). Course...when programmers/managers need is ultra-urgent, his time is equally available to us.

Middle and Upper management do not have to conform to the models of incompetence that we'd like to shoehorn them into. And they very often don't.

As a (newly-appointed) middle-manager, one of my main jobs will be something my predecessor did a lot....making sure the developers in my office have what they need. This includes me making and fetching them coffee so they don't have to get up, me going out to the shops to buy the milk / sugar when it runs out, me offering to do the donkey-work on late projects, and so on. I'm gopher and manager rolled into one, and y'know what....I think thats exactly what I should be.

If anyone here hasn't read it...I'd heartily recommend getting a copy of Peopleware. If you're not a manager, convince your boss to read it too. Some of it is a bit too "corporate 'merica" for my taste, but *so* much of that book makes sense. One of the biggest points it makes is that a managers job is to remove obstacles from the developers path...not to dictate what that path should/must be.

jc

the_syco · 16-08-2005 2:38pm

iggyman wrote:

well if ya like computer maintenence so much why dont ya open your own small computer maintenence business...

Because I don't have enough money to have all the spare parts. It costs a sh|t load of money to always have the correct parts, thus why most companies don't have internal IT maintenance: its waaay cheaper to outsource it.

bonkey wrote:

You seem to be implying that a geek is a programmer, and middle-management are all money-grabbing weenies.

What about money-grabbing weenies who aren't in middle-management? Or geeks who are?

In your experience.

I'll accept I'm wrong, as I've only worked in a few IT places.

=-=

I'm a geek. This is what I want. I may regret it in a few years time, but I think its better than mopping the floors of a university, flipping burgers, peeling pots of carrots, cleaning up someone else's puke in a nightclub...

bonkey wrote:

If anyone here hasn't read it...I'd heartily recommend getting a copy of Peopleware. If you're not a manager, convince your boss to read it too.

May do that. Any idea how much is it? I take it I can it gt it in Waterstones, or Hodges & Figgis?

Kernel32 · 16-08-2005 3:04pm

Personally I love the business, its treated me well. I've been plugging away for 9 years now. I would consider myself pretty technical but I became the software development manager this year where I work. I spend more time responding to email and on the phone than I do writing code. You have to evolve or you won't get anywhere in my opinion. A couple of years back I hit a career roadblock. I couldn't demand any more money, I was frustrated because I had the responsibility of a manager but not the authority. I tried some contracting, made some cash but it was souless.

Now I am a manager by day and I do consulting on the side for another company. My consulting gig is interesting. I was brought in to help out because the existing development team was so set in their ways, so heads down coding that they became useless. In the end they cleaned house, let go most of the developers and brought me and several others in as consultants and contractors. I get paid way more than those developers for my time but we are producing results. Don't become one of those developers.

Bonkey made some great points. Right now I am faced with doing performance reviews, its not as easy as it sounds. I also take some of the crappy work for myself so the other developers stay on track. I recently had to modify old crystal 8 reports for a foxpro application, horrible stuff. I did it because the developers would pi$$ and moan about it and they don't consider that there was a huge business value in updating them.

bonkey · 16-08-2005 6:40pm

the_syco wrote:

I'm a geek. This is what I want. I may regret it in a few years time, but I think its better than mopping the floors of a university, flipping burgers, peeling pots of carrots, cleaning up someone else's puke in a nightclub...

Don't get me wrong...I'm not knocking geeks...I still consider myself mostly one. It just that I don't work in a traditional geek job any more...I've moved into management because - frankly - coding was getting boring, and the niches I wanted to fit into would effectively have required that I work for a large corporate, or a large corporate consultancy...neither of which I was willing to do.

Any idea how much is it? I take it I can it gt it in Waterstones, or Hodges & Figgis?

No notion. I picked mine up on amazon.de some time back, and have bought so many books I tend not to remember prices. It may seem slightly overpriced (its a relatively thin book) but I still recommend it. So do Joel Spolsky (joelonsoftware.com) and Steve McConnell (Code Complete / Rapid Software Development) which are pretty good references in my book ...evne if both of them come out of Microsoft

jc

secret_squirrel · 16-08-2005 7:37pm

Hobbes wrote:

Outsourcing is so popular because it saves* insane amounts of money.

Massive over simplification. Yes it can save pots of money. If the management go into it with clear goals and objectives. If its done because they cant be bothered to spend their time and energy managing their IT depts properly then it can also blow up in their faces.

Personally I wouldnt hesitate to outsource pieces of an IT dept that are pretty much commodity items. However, I dont believe there is a substitute for an IT dept that is close to the business (thats my softskills coming into play Zaphod

)- most outsourcing failures are due to the outsourcing companies not responding flexibly enough to changing business environment or not having the business knowledge to do an effective job. Obviously this can happen with internal IT and often leads to outsourcing in the first place!

I do believe that outsource is sometimes used as a cover for inneffectual management of an IT dept.

I defy anyone who has worked for a big corporate not to find something relevant in a Dilbert strip. Yes I am aware how he is his own worst enemy thats part of the humour.

zaph0d wrote:

How would you describe the communication skills of a programmer who can't write a clear description in English of the feature set of a piece of software he has written? I've seen many programmers who either point blank refuse or procrastinate eternally or produce unreadable tripe when forced to write a document - let alone make a verbal presentation. How can you get anywhere when you can't even explain to your client the benefits of your labour?

Since I would describe the above skills as fundamental for any IT professional - I would have to agree thats incompetence. But thats not what you originally suggested. My basic assumption would be that there is a minimum level of soft skills necessary to perform in IT, and having more helps you excel. Hell my soft skills have got me where I am today. (yes I am aware of the irony of that last statement) Which is acting Manager in a dept that already has 1 manager (team lead really) to every 3 developers. (Long story not just the company's fault.)

I would strongly deny however, that softskills are a magic cure for severe problems at senior management level, which is what you seemed to be implying.

I am well aware thats its very easy to develope a seige mentality against management, but I would also suggest that sometime just because you are paranoid doesnt meant that they arent out to get you.

scojones · 17-08-2005 10:24am

Civilian_Target wrote:

This story always makes me a bit jealous - this guy took the leap...
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/3/19/133129/548

That's a great article. It emphasises that no matter what, you have to work, so if you can, make sure you work in a job that you like. Working is hard enough, and working in a job that you do not like is torture.

Thanks alot for introducing me to kuro5hin.org too. Great site.

RicardoSmith · 17-08-2005 10:58pm

sjones wrote:

That's a great article. It emphasises that no matter what, you have to work, so if you can, make sure you work in a job that you like. Working is hard enough, and working in a job that you do not like is torture.

Thanks alot for introducing me to kuro5hin.org too. Great site.

Thats true. But that guy was is a bit of an idealist. No dependants or financial obligations. It also doesn't account for being off work through injury or sickness.

Basically theres no future in it.

Zaph0d · 21-08-2005 9:18pm

secret_squirrel wrote:

I would strongly deny however, that softskills are a magic cure for severe problems at senior management level, which is what you seemed to be implying.

I didn't mean to imply this.

I was claiming that a technical employee can cure his unhappiness and frustration with mismanagement using non-technical skills. He may not cure the management problems that led to his initial unhappiness. After all he can't hot swap his manager's brain.

If it's raining you can curse God and start to cry or you can plan to bring an umbrella the next time you go out. Managers are not gods and, if you have the right skills, can often be talked into changing their counter-productive business methods.

Giving up because the causes of your problems are external to you is easy but changes nothing.

You share the same goals as your boss- project success, so you need to agree how to get there.

Zaph0d · 21-08-2005 9:23pm

Can someone give an example of a problem they have at work they feel they can't influence? in the last few years I rarely come across any frustration that is outside my control whereas, when I started out, my whole job seemed like this.

Civilian_Target · 22-08-2005 9:50am

RicardoSmith wrote:

Thats true. But that guy was is a bit of an idealist. No dependants or financial obligations. It also doesn't account for being off work through injury or sickness.

Basically theres no future in it.

Isn't that the whole point of what he's saying. That there is no future, no rat race, no pension schemes. Hes just cycling...

RicardoSmith · 22-08-2005 7:04pm

Civilian_Target wrote:

Isn't that the whole point of what he's saying. That there is no future, no rat race, no pension schemes. Hes just cycling...

I thought it was being put forward as a realistic alternative. Whereas its the Disney ending to a story.

secret_squirrel · 22-08-2005 8:12pm

Zaph0d wrote:

You share the same goals as your boss- project success, so you need to agree how to get there.

You're making an assumption that is just not true with my department at the moment.

My goals are to offer the best service to the business I can with the resources I have available to me.

The Departments senior management have the following objectives (some actually stated - some inferred by me) :

Throttled the Project pipeline so it looked like we were undertasked. Now we are overtasked for the same reason. (inferred) Both cases strengthen the case for outsourcing.
Destroyed all the career paths in the department. (Stated) eg blocked horizontal moves.
Refused to reform the dept structure and procedures after losing half the workforce (200 down to <100) (inferred)
Told the whole department there was no future in IT in our company. (Stated)

Those are just 4 of the ways in which my senior management have demostrated utter contempt for their staff. And you wonder why I think soft skills are irrelevant in this situation?? I dont deny your point - I just think they dont apply to my personal situation.

bonkey · 23-08-2005 4:42am

No offence ss, but if you're convinced that your managers are trying to set your department up for outsourcing, and are out to limit prospects....

what the hell are you staying there for????

Your department is not typical of IT. Its typical of departments which are going through a slow death, where corporate/union/whatever restrictions are forcing that to be drawn out, long and painful.

jc

boidey · 23-08-2005 7:24am

I did tech for seven years and then quit. I had several reasons for quitting. Incompetent management, duplicitious backstabbing individuals that live under rocks..............lazy sods that try get up the ladder by highlighting or creating situations where others will look bad. When training new recruits I used to tell them that the best way to appear tall was to ensure their best mate was a pygmy..enough said
My main reason was to get some control back over my life. The threat of india, companies closing or cutting back, 911 etc all just raised the uncertainity factor just a bit too high for me. I put my reasons for leaving on paper, gave it to my bosses and left that same day (at their request!!) . So I burned my bridges and walked. Other than having a p/t job in a supermarket lined up I had nothing to look fwd to. P/t job turned to a fulltime position albeit I now work nights. (yeah I took a pay cut)
So 12 months later do I regret it? Not one bit. Folk that worked with b4 remark how much better I look, I have stopped smoking and the coffee intake has decreased. I get to spend more time with my family, as I am writin this my son is on my knee giving his commentary as 2 year olds do. I had always wanted to start my own business and working nights has allowed me to do so. I can't say its a success yet but thats my problem to fix.
I did learn quite a bit from working in tech, Technical excellence in isolation will ensure that you will go nowhere but round and round. After n years employers expect you to have either moved from tech to management or just to have moved!
Without the relevant communication skills or at least the ability to make noises at the right moments, techs wil just stay techs and eventually will get disillusioned, bitter, stressed and allround miserable buggers.
My former employers have decided to try a taste of india and my former colleagues are now waiting to see where the axe is going to fall. I have had a hard time resisting the temptation to phone up my fomer boss and say" heh, toldja ya were a bollix"

DublinWriter · 23-08-2005 7:50am

I’ve been working in IT for the last 15 years and counting and like many here, I’m getting increasingly sick of it.

I got into it in the first place in the depressed late 80’s through a personal interest. Back then, being a ‘computer programmer’ held some sort of cache as well as looking like something that had a stable future.

Nowadays you might as well be the guy whos come to fix the photocopier.

IT is a profession you can’t afford to ‘drift’ in. I’ve seen plenty of guys, 30 and 40 plus, who started off programming in Cobol, RPG/400, 4GL, etc, and who are still working for the same company and doing the same thing to this day. They are now totally unemployable outside the company they work for because their skill-set is so Jurassic.

I went self-employed eight years ago and have never looked back since. For me this was an immediate solution to a career path that I wasn’t entirely happy with.

Contracting isn’t entirely for everyone, but it has worked for me. It was never about the money - primarily it’s given me independence over the usual bullsh*t politics that you see in any given company.

My personal experience is that IT Managers, CIO’s, etc, are largely incompetent, especially in Ireland.

I’ve worked with hundreds of IT people (techs, programmers, PMs, managers) in the last 15 years at all levels and I could count the ‘good guys’ on the fingers of one hand.

I did my primary degree in IT at night in the early part of my career and I’m now doing an MSc part-time (IT as well, groan!) as I want to have lecturing as an alternate career path.

I’m also doing freelance writing in IT and non-IT subjects for a few publications.

My biggest advice to you would be to establish some life goals (5 year, 10 year, 15 year, etc) and do your best to achieve them. If you’re unhappy with IT then don’t just bitch about it, but get a ‘Plan B’ together.

If you want to stay in IT then look at getting some niche skills under your belt (ERP, DBA, Data Warehousing, GIS, etc) as VB programmers are a penny a dozen these days, and even cheaper in India.

...and don't even get me started about agencies!...

Hobbes · 23-08-2005 8:38am

DublinWriter wrote:

IT is a profession you can’t afford to ‘drift’ in. I’ve seen plenty of guys, 30 and 40 plus, who started off programming in Cobol, RPG/400, 4GL, etc, and who are still working for the same company and doing the same thing to this day. They are now totally unemployable outside the company they work for because their skill-set is so Jurassic.

Actually those sort of jobs pay extremly well because there are so few people in that area and there are still jobs for this sort of things (it is not going away anytime soon). These would be 'niche skills'

New technologies (last 10 years) I agree with you though. The industry changes so much that you really need to keep on top of it. Anyone who is in University thinking "No more studying for me!" when they leave is in for a shock.

My biggest advice to you would be to establish some life goals (5 year, 10 year, 15 year, etc) and do your best to achieve them. If you’re unhappy with IT then don’t just bitch about it, but get a ‘Plan B’ together.

I would agree with this. If you have no plan you do tend to drift.

Zaph0d · 23-08-2005 9:45am

secret_squirrel wrote:

<management are trying to outsource the department and demoralise staff>

At this point most people go into full-time CV preparation mode. You seem put out that your job is under threat and yet it doesn't sound like the kind of place you'd like to work. Either get ready to jump or decide to stay.

Outsourced employees are often happier with the new employer. If you don't believe that outsourcing is immoral or unjust then why not find out something about it and suggest ways to your boss that you can provide him with the IT needed to get the job done. He sounds like he's not doing very well.

Outsourcing often fails. Here's a well known book, if you're interested:http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0814404340

DublinWriter · 23-08-2005 10:17am

Hobbes wrote:

Actually those sort of jobs pay extremly well because there are so few people in that area and there are still jobs for this sort of things (it is not going away anytime soon). These would be 'niche skills'

Not really. I know a couple of guys hitting 40 who have been working for an insurance company for 15+ years working with an obsure AS400 4GL.

As they are permanent employees, they are on 'regular' type programmer salary.

They keep banging on about 'learning VB', but they are effectively unemployable outside the context of their company and the tools it uses.

Even if you can get work in Cobol, RPG400 etc, etc, you'll be doing a lot of maintenance work on legacy systems, hardly the most exciting thing you could do in IT.

There's niche skills, and there's 'old' niche skills.

Hobbes · 23-08-2005 10:45am

DublinWriter wrote:

Not really. I know a couple of guys hitting 40 who have been working for an insurance company for 15+ years working with an obsure AS400 4GL.

Its hardly obscure and a lot of major companies/corporations use mainframes. You will find the older the skill and more obscure the higher it pays as well (eg. Cobol). These sort of systems don't go away anytime soon.

4GL is also not a programming language. it is more a CASE type application.

Even if you can get work in Cobol, RPG400 etc, etc, you'll be doing a lot of maintenance work on legacy systems, hardly the most exciting thing you could do in IT.

Not everyone is in the field for excitement and people have varying levels of what they deem excitement.

DublinWriter · 23-08-2005 11:00am

Hobbes wrote:

You will find the older the skill and more obscure the higher it pays as well (eg. Cobol). These sort of systems don't go away anytime soon.

Not if you've been working for the same company on a pay scale for the past 15 years.

Contract work can be lucrative in these areas, especially Cobol, although you won't see many (if any) new perm Cobol jobs around these days.

Hobbes wrote:

4GL is also not a programming language. it is more a CASE type application.

I beg to differ. Progress, Signon and Lansa are all examples of 4GL languages. CASE generally is a term used to describe a methodology.

Hobbes wrote:

Not everyone is in the field for excitement and people have varying levels of what they deem excitement.

That's true, but personally I don't live to work. Work satisfaction is important as well.

Mutant_Fruit · 23-08-2005 11:28am

When you see people writing SQL "stored procedures" like (and this is what i've just seen in an application written by an ex-employee):

SELECT * FROM Desktop ORDER BY NAME ASC
	RETURN

.

And "stored procedures" being called in the following way:

string select = 
						"SELECT [Tag #], Name, Type, [Ship Date], [HW/SW Spec], " + 
						"Comments, b.[Assigned To], Quarantine, [Use] FROM Laptop AS a " + 
						"INNER JOIN Employees AS b " + 
						"ON a.[Assigned To] = b.[Internal Number]";

				//--------------------------------
				//	Make a connection between the DataSet and
				//	the underlying storage device. Execute the 
				//	stored procedure and fill the DataSet
				//--------------------------------	
				sqlDataAdapter = new SqlDataAdapter(select, makeConn);
				sqlDataAdapter.Fill(laptopDS, "Laptop");

you really wonder why you bother. Unfortunately, i've been landed with this mess of a program with one week to fix it up "any bugs that might be in it". Ideally i'd go for a total rewrite, but since its only for internal use, i think i'll just leave it as is with a warning note attached

Hobbes · 23-08-2005 12:18pm

DublinWriter wrote:

Not if you've been working for the same company on a pay scale for the past 15 years.

Well in that instance they have Job Security. Its not just pay scale that keeps people. It tends to be a case of swings and roundabouts with regards to contract/fulltime. Some people are not suited for one or the other. Doesn't mean that one is lesser then the other.

CASE generally is a term used to describe a methodology.

No, its used to describe software tools. There may be methodologies behind those but they wouldn't normally be referred to as CASE.

That's true, but personally I don't live to work. Work satisfaction is important as well.

Who says they "live to work" as well or don't have job satisfaction? Seems to be a common Contractor myth that people working full time are (a) not happy in the job and (b) not capable of the job they run.

DublinWriter · 23-08-2005 1:20pm

Hobbes wrote:

Who says they "live to work" as well or don't have job satisfaction? Seems to be a common Contractor myth that people working full time are (a) not happy in the job and (b) not capable of the job they run.

Note the use of the word 'personally' in my statement. "I 'personally' don't live to work."

And as an aside, most of the guys I mentioned are deseparately unhappy, one is retraining for a career in landscape gardening, another is counting the days to when he can retire at 54 and another is planning to quit entirely to become a house-dad.

I wouldn't say myself either that contractors hold a myth about just permanent IT people being largely incompetant.

On the whole I've found that the majority of people I've worked with in IT at all levels have been incompetant and shouldn't have been there in the first place.

The difference is that it's much harder to get away with being an incompetant contractor than it is to get away with being an incompetant permanent employee.

TowerMan · 23-08-2005 1:50pm

People do you think only people working in IT are unhappy in their job while everybody else is having the time of their lives at work!! There are very few jobs out there that people don’t find some aspect that they don’t enjoy; it’s a matter of fact. It’s a job!! But IT compared to a lot of industries has great diversity in job roles. You can be a developer, tech support.....etc. I not its not secure and very few people get filthy rich out of it but there is worse ways to make a living..

Hobbes · 23-08-2005 2:06pm

DublinWriter wrote:

I wouldn't say myself either that contractors hold a myth about just permanent IT people being largely incompetant.

On the whole I've found that the majority of people I've worked with in IT at all levels have been incompetant and shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Which is the myth. Contractors would normally be called into situations where there is a problem that needs to be resolved. In these instances unhappy workers or incompetance could be the cause or symptom of that problem.

However that does not mean that all IT is this way. For example where I work I don't know of anyone who is incompetant in their job. If they were they would of been let go long ago. As for happy, thats a different story and varies from group/department and differing levels.

It is very similar to a role in IS departments. If everything is running smoothly you don't see the IS guys (as they solve the problem before you see it), however people see this as IS guys being slackers because of this or downsizing/outsourcing as obviously you are not getting enough problems to warrent the team.

The difference is that it's much harder to get away with being an incompetant contractor than it is to get away with being an incompetant permanent employee.

I don't believe this is entirely true either. I would say harder to maintain steady work as a contractor.

Trojan · 23-08-2005 2:47pm

There is also the category of people who are capable of being extremely competent at their job, but who for some reason are not (depression due to bad management, zero upward movement possibilities, etc). These people can appear to be either incompetant or burned out, depending on the perspective of the viewer.

bonkey · 23-08-2005 2:51pm

Hobbes wrote:

No, its used to describe software tools. There may be methodologies behind those but they wouldn't normally be referred to as CASE.

<pedant>

CASE == Computer Aided Software Engineering.

It is an approach. A methodology. Given that it is Computer-Aided, it requires tools on teh computer which assist. These are CASE Tools

4GL is a language classification, being short-hand for "fourth generation language" - a buzzword which lost all meaning and relevance sometime in the early 90s.
</pedant>

jc

DublinWriter · 23-08-2005 2:59pm

Hobbes wrote:

I don't believe this is entirely true either. I would say harder to maintain steady work as a contractor.

You're comparing apples with oranges. I originally said it was harder to get away with being an incompetant contractor than it is get away with being a incompetant permie.

I haven't had a day without client work in the last eight years, and I hope it continues *touch wood*.

secret_squirrel · 23-08-2005 8:13pm

bonkey wrote:

No offence ss, but if you're convinced that your managers are trying to set your department up for outsourcing, and are out to limit prospects....

what the hell are you staying there for????

Your department is not typical of IT. Its typical of departments which are going through a slow death, where corporate/union/whatever restrictions are forcing that to be drawn out, long and painful.

jc

You're pretty much spot on there - and I am in exit mode - however we are currently having dangled over our heads a huge voluntary redundancy package which makes it difficult to leave whilst this is still potentially on the table.

Thanks for putting up with my rants folks

This isnt the normal me.

I would seriously consider working for the outsourcing company - but unfortunately 60% of the dept dont want it. When you look at their current salaries, and benefits and position in life (ie family types) then you can see why they want to stay put. Any management are using those of us who want to go as a lever against those who want to stay. Nice eh?

I must admit though - I do find it frustrating that we have some of the best technical people I have ever worked with but they are not being utilized in a way to maximise the benefit to the company and the senior managers think that an outsourcing company with no industry experience is going to do a better job that a committed management team would.

To give you another example of the calibre of our senior management team - one of the most respected and skill senior managers in the organisation was forced out to be replaced by out ex IT director so they could get the ex-IT guy out of the way before the outsourcing project exploded in their faces.
The guy walked into a massively high profile role with our major competitor 2 days after leaving. Needless to say our major competitor beats us hands down come results time.

Anyhow enough of my ranting. Good points made by all concerned.

run_Forrest_run · 24-08-2005 7:32am

Wow! When I originally started this thread I didn't anticipate such interest...but thanks all for your input...some great stories/advice indeed...well I am still in the IT industry and maybe too lazy to actually get off my backside and get qualified to try something else...or maybe it's a matter of ' the grass is always greener on the other side'...who knows! But for now it's back to the code editor as there is a really annoying bug in this feckin code..

Hobbes · 24-08-2005 8:22am

bonkey wrote:

<pedant>

CASE == Computer Aided Software Engineering.

I stand corrected. Apologies to Dublinwriter/Bonkey.

I haven't had a day without client work in the last eight years, and I hope it continues *touch wood*.

eep. I hope you didn't read what I posted as personally against you. :eek:

ando · 24-08-2005 8:35am

I'm in IT for 4 years now. I've had enough and last year I decided to go for the fire brigade. I'm currently in the Aux Fire service and will be qualified in September, which I am hoping will help in the recruitment stage for the DFB. If the Garda recruit before the fire brigade I'll be going for that instead. I have friends in both jobs and the way they describe their job, it seems a lot more stimulating than what I'm doing now.
When I started in IT, I was all up for getting qualifications and experience, but now any motivation for me to get further IT qualifications has evaporated completely. While my area in IT is somewhat satisfying, I'm getting tired of the same bull. IT is something to fall back on

scojones · 24-08-2005 8:49am

ando wrote:

IT is something to fall back on

Not if you don't keep up to speed with it.

clearz · 24-08-2005 9:43am

Sounds to me that this is just more fallout from the dot-com boom in the late 90's when most ppl went into IT at the prospect of making a quick buck without a shread of intrest in computers. After the boom was over and the country was saturated in IT staff that had no real passion for it this had to be expected.
Between this and the lack of new graduates finnishing college with degrees in IT those of us that really loves what we are doing and went into IT for all the right reasons I think the future is $$$rosy$$$

Macbeth · 24-08-2005 4:45pm

The IT industry is twin sisters with the world of cut-throat business. After all, products produced by the IT industry feed almost exclusively into the business world. The Business world want things like yesteryear, and the marketing departments or whoever bids for projects in the world of IT bend over arseways to accommodate. CAVEAT!!!! lots of IT companies recruit on the pretence of long term with all the big salaries, bonus, company pension this blah that blah, but only really want people to fill a gap with cheap labour, then when they've got what they want they call you in for the review which starts off with..."Come in ...take a seat. Now we've been reviewing the ...project...worked very hard...deployed with great success...REDUNDANT...sorry...clear your desk...ermmm security watch (s)he doesn't sabotage the server...". Its a big con...sorry we're all surplus to requirements...chocolate teapots

wes · 24-08-2005 4:53pm

I will be starting my first proper IT job next week and while there is some great advice on this thread. I think I will stop reading this thread now lol.

bonkey · 24-08-2005 5:20pm

Macbeth wrote:

Its a big con...sorry we're all surplus to requirements...

Speak for yourself

No'ones ultimately indensible, but that doesn't make everyone surplus to requirements.

jc

Cake Fiend · 24-08-2005 7:46pm

clearz wrote:

Sounds to me that this is just more fallout from the dot-com boom in the late 90's when most ppl went into IT at the prospect of making a quick buck without a shread of intrest in computers. After the boom was over and the country was saturated in IT staff that had no real passion for it this had to be expected.

Spot on. If certain posters on this thread find it so easy to up and leave the whole IT industry behind, maybe they didn't have the passion for it in the first place. I'm only 5 or so years in IT professionally, but already I find it hard to entertain the idea of downing tools for another profession - if I were to leave a particular branch of IT due to frustration or whatever, it would have to be to another branch of IT. The notion of toddling off to the gardaí, dentistry, business, whatever seems alien to me.

Zaph0d · 24-08-2005 8:07pm

clearz wrote:

Sounds to me that this is just more fallout from the dot-com boom in the late 90's when most ppl went into IT at the prospect of making a quick buck without a shread of intrest in computers.

There are also plenty of people in IT who love their work but hate their jobs.

clearz · 25-08-2005 11:55am

Zaph0d wrote:

There are also plenty of people in IT who love their work but hate their jobs.

Oh I know there is. And I see a lot of hope on the horizon for us. When the people that hate the work all quit their jobs to become firemen, binmen or whatever else tickles their fancy there will be a lot more IT jobs for us to choose from.

Zaph0d · 25-08-2005 1:18pm

When people leave IT it does increase the number of jobs available and the rates of pay but that's not what people are complaining about in this thread. They are having difficulty with management and other people issues at work.

bonkey · 25-08-2005 1:24pm

Sure...but you can always change job without changing industry if your problem is that you hate your job and love your work.

If you're not willing to do that, then its a case that you don't like your job, but there are benefits to it which are more important to you than liking it.....in which case you can try and change things and/or just accept that they're unlikeable as they are.

jc

Evil Phil · 25-08-2005 1:34pm

I've been contracting for 2 years now (9 years in the industry) and the one thing I hate when starting a new project or contract is the person who assumes that the majority of people in I.T. are incompetent, useless or are just there for the quick buck and have no *real* interest. These people are very difficult to work with.

I'm moving more and more into a analyst/dev roles and away from pure dev work. There's a lot more career paths available and am currently having a huge rethink of my professional life. I've retrained into .Net over the last year and really don't want to have to do it again when the next big shift comes. Hopefully I'll have moved into a role where those skills aren't so important.

secret_squirrel · 25-08-2005 8:04pm

bonkey wrote:

Sure...but you can always change job without changing industry if your problem is that you hate your job and love your work.

If you're not willing to do that, then its a case that you don't like your job, but there are benefits to it which are more important to you than liking it.....in which case you can try and change things and/or just accept that they're unlikeable as they are.

jc

Great words - really gets to the point. Sums up my situation.

I think those of us who feel passion for our job are the ones who find it hard to treat it as just a job - and therefore get most frustrated when dealing with muppetry from Management and our less dedicated colleagues.

DublinWriter · 25-08-2005 9:52pm

ando wrote:

I'm in IT for 4 years now. I've had enough and last year I decided to go for the fire brigade. I'm currently in the Aux Fire service and will be qualified in September, which I am hoping will help in the recruitment stage for the DFB. If the Garda recruit before the fire brigade I'll be going for that instead.

At least with the Guards you'll still also have the option of doing IT within the Guards.