Anyone else sick of IT Career?

Zaph0d

Can someone give an example of a problem they have at work they feel they can't influence? in the last few years I rarely come across any frustration that is outside my control whereas, when I started out, my whole job seemed like this.

Civilian_Target

RicardoSmith wrote:

Thats true. But that guy was is a bit of an idealist. No dependants or financial obligations. It also doesn't account for being off work through injury or sickness.

Basically theres no future in it.

Isn't that the whole point of what he's saying. That there is no future, no rat race, no pension schemes. Hes just cycling...

RicardoSmith

Civilian_Target wrote:

Isn't that the whole point of what he's saying. That there is no future, no rat race, no pension schemes. Hes just cycling...

I thought it was being put forward as a realistic alternative. Whereas its the Disney ending to a story.

secret_squirrel

Zaph0d wrote:

You share the same goals as your boss- project success, so you need to agree how to get there.

You're making an assumption that is just not true with my department at the moment.

My goals are to offer the best service to the business I can with the resources I have available to me.

The Departments senior management have the following objectives (some actually stated - some inferred by me) :

Throttled the Project pipeline so it looked like we were undertasked. Now we are overtasked for the same reason. (inferred) Both cases strengthen the case for outsourcing.
Destroyed all the career paths in the department. (Stated) eg blocked horizontal moves.
Refused to reform the dept structure and procedures after losing half the workforce (200 down to <100) (inferred)
Told the whole department there was no future in IT in our company. (Stated)

Those are just 4 of the ways in which my senior management have demostrated utter contempt for their staff. And you wonder why I think soft skills are irrelevant in this situation?? I dont deny your point - I just think they dont apply to my personal situation.

bonkey

No offence ss, but if you're convinced that your managers are trying to set your department up for outsourcing, and are out to limit prospects....

what the hell are you staying there for????

Your department is not typical of IT. Its typical of departments which are going through a slow death, where corporate/union/whatever restrictions are forcing that to be drawn out, long and painful.

jc

boidey

I did tech for seven years and then quit. I had several reasons for quitting. Incompetent management, duplicitious backstabbing individuals that live under rocks..............lazy sods that try get up the ladder by highlighting or creating situations where others will look bad. When training new recruits I used to tell them that the best way to appear tall was to ensure their best mate was a pygmy..enough said
My main reason was to get some control back over my life. The threat of india, companies closing or cutting back, 911 etc all just raised the uncertainity factor just a bit too high for me. I put my reasons for leaving on paper, gave it to my bosses and left that same day (at their request!!) . So I burned my bridges and walked. Other than having a p/t job in a supermarket lined up I had nothing to look fwd to. P/t job turned to a fulltime position albeit I now work nights. (yeah I took a pay cut)
So 12 months later do I regret it? Not one bit. Folk that worked with b4 remark how much better I look, I have stopped smoking and the coffee intake has decreased. I get to spend more time with my family, as I am writin this my son is on my knee giving his commentary as 2 year olds do. I had always wanted to start my own business and working nights has allowed me to do so. I can't say its a success yet but thats my problem to fix.
I did learn quite a bit from working in tech, Technical excellence in isolation will ensure that you will go nowhere but round and round. After n years employers expect you to have either moved from tech to management or just to have moved!
Without the relevant communication skills or at least the ability to make noises at the right moments, techs wil just stay techs and eventually will get disillusioned, bitter, stressed and allround miserable buggers.
My former employers have decided to try a taste of india and my former colleagues are now waiting to see where the axe is going to fall. I have had a hard time resisting the temptation to phone up my fomer boss and say" heh, toldja ya were a bollix"

DublinWriter

I’ve been working in IT for the last 15 years and counting and like many here, I’m getting increasingly sick of it.

I got into it in the first place in the depressed late 80’s through a personal interest. Back then, being a ‘computer programmer’ held some sort of cache as well as looking like something that had a stable future.

Nowadays you might as well be the guy whos come to fix the photocopier.

IT is a profession you can’t afford to ‘drift’ in. I’ve seen plenty of guys, 30 and 40 plus, who started off programming in Cobol, RPG/400, 4GL, etc, and who are still working for the same company and doing the same thing to this day. They are now totally unemployable outside the company they work for because their skill-set is so Jurassic.

I went self-employed eight years ago and have never looked back since. For me this was an immediate solution to a career path that I wasn’t entirely happy with.

Contracting isn’t entirely for everyone, but it has worked for me. It was never about the money - primarily it’s given me independence over the usual bullsh*t politics that you see in any given company.

My personal experience is that IT Managers, CIO’s, etc, are largely incompetent, especially in Ireland.

I’ve worked with hundreds of IT people (techs, programmers, PMs, managers) in the last 15 years at all levels and I could count the ‘good guys’ on the fingers of one hand.

I did my primary degree in IT at night in the early part of my career and I’m now doing an MSc part-time (IT as well, groan!) as I want to have lecturing as an alternate career path.

I’m also doing freelance writing in IT and non-IT subjects for a few publications.

My biggest advice to you would be to establish some life goals (5 year, 10 year, 15 year, etc) and do your best to achieve them. If you’re unhappy with IT then don’t just bitch about it, but get a ‘Plan B’ together.

If you want to stay in IT then look at getting some niche skills under your belt (ERP, DBA, Data Warehousing, GIS, etc) as VB programmers are a penny a dozen these days, and even cheaper in India.

...and don't even get me started about agencies!...

Hobbes

DublinWriter wrote:

IT is a profession you can’t afford to ‘drift’ in. I’ve seen plenty of guys, 30 and 40 plus, who started off programming in Cobol, RPG/400, 4GL, etc, and who are still working for the same company and doing the same thing to this day. They are now totally unemployable outside the company they work for because their skill-set is so Jurassic.

Actually those sort of jobs pay extremly well because there are so few people in that area and there are still jobs for this sort of things (it is not going away anytime soon). These would be 'niche skills'

New technologies (last 10 years) I agree with you though. The industry changes so much that you really need to keep on top of it. Anyone who is in University thinking "No more studying for me!" when they leave is in for a shock.

My biggest advice to you would be to establish some life goals (5 year, 10 year, 15 year, etc) and do your best to achieve them. If you’re unhappy with IT then don’t just bitch about it, but get a ‘Plan B’ together.

I would agree with this. If you have no plan you do tend to drift.

Zaph0d

secret_squirrel wrote:

<management are trying to outsource the department and demoralise staff>

At this point most people go into full-time CV preparation mode. You seem put out that your job is under threat and yet it doesn't sound like the kind of place you'd like to work. Either get ready to jump or decide to stay.

Outsourced employees are often happier with the new employer. If you don't believe that outsourcing is immoral or unjust then why not find out something about it and suggest ways to your boss that you can provide him with the IT needed to get the job done. He sounds like he's not doing very well.

Outsourcing often fails. Here's a well known book, if you're interested:http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0814404340

DublinWriter

Hobbes wrote:

Actually those sort of jobs pay extremly well because there are so few people in that area and there are still jobs for this sort of things (it is not going away anytime soon). These would be 'niche skills'

Not really. I know a couple of guys hitting 40 who have been working for an insurance company for 15+ years working with an obsure AS400 4GL.

As they are permanent employees, they are on 'regular' type programmer salary.

They keep banging on about 'learning VB', but they are effectively unemployable outside the context of their company and the tools it uses.

Even if you can get work in Cobol, RPG400 etc, etc, you'll be doing a lot of maintenance work on legacy systems, hardly the most exciting thing you could do in IT.

There's niche skills, and there's 'old' niche skills.

Hobbes

DublinWriter wrote:

Not really. I know a couple of guys hitting 40 who have been working for an insurance company for 15+ years working with an obsure AS400 4GL.

Its hardly obscure and a lot of major companies/corporations use mainframes. You will find the older the skill and more obscure the higher it pays as well (eg. Cobol). These sort of systems don't go away anytime soon.

4GL is also not a programming language. it is more a CASE type application.

Even if you can get work in Cobol, RPG400 etc, etc, you'll be doing a lot of maintenance work on legacy systems, hardly the most exciting thing you could do in IT.

Not everyone is in the field for excitement and people have varying levels of what they deem excitement.

DublinWriter

Hobbes wrote:

You will find the older the skill and more obscure the higher it pays as well (eg. Cobol). These sort of systems don't go away anytime soon.

Not if you've been working for the same company on a pay scale for the past 15 years.

Contract work can be lucrative in these areas, especially Cobol, although you won't see many (if any) new perm Cobol jobs around these days.

Hobbes wrote:

4GL is also not a programming language. it is more a CASE type application.

I beg to differ. Progress, Signon and Lansa are all examples of 4GL languages. CASE generally is a term used to describe a methodology.

Hobbes wrote:

Not everyone is in the field for excitement and people have varying levels of what they deem excitement.

That's true, but personally I don't live to work. Work satisfaction is important as well.

Mutant_Fruit

When you see people writing SQL "stored procedures" like (and this is what i've just seen in an application written by an ex-employee):

SELECT * FROM Desktop ORDER BY NAME ASC
	RETURN

.

And "stored procedures" being called in the following way:

string select = 
						"SELECT [Tag #], Name, Type, [Ship Date], [HW/SW Spec], " + 
						"Comments, b.[Assigned To], Quarantine, [Use] FROM Laptop AS a " + 
						"INNER JOIN Employees AS b " + 
						"ON a.[Assigned To] = b.[Internal Number]";

				//--------------------------------
				//	Make a connection between the DataSet and
				//	the underlying storage device. Execute the 
				//	stored procedure and fill the DataSet
				//--------------------------------	
				sqlDataAdapter = new SqlDataAdapter(select, makeConn);
				sqlDataAdapter.Fill(laptopDS, "Laptop");

you really wonder why you bother. Unfortunately, i've been landed with this mess of a program with one week to fix it up "any bugs that might be in it". Ideally i'd go for a total rewrite, but since its only for internal use, i think i'll just leave it as is with a warning note attached

Hobbes

DublinWriter wrote:

Not if you've been working for the same company on a pay scale for the past 15 years.

Well in that instance they have Job Security. Its not just pay scale that keeps people. It tends to be a case of swings and roundabouts with regards to contract/fulltime. Some people are not suited for one or the other. Doesn't mean that one is lesser then the other.

CASE generally is a term used to describe a methodology.

No, its used to describe software tools. There may be methodologies behind those but they wouldn't normally be referred to as CASE.

That's true, but personally I don't live to work. Work satisfaction is important as well.

Who says they "live to work" as well or don't have job satisfaction? Seems to be a common Contractor myth that people working full time are (a) not happy in the job and (b) not capable of the job they run.

DublinWriter

Hobbes wrote:

Who says they "live to work" as well or don't have job satisfaction? Seems to be a common Contractor myth that people working full time are (a) not happy in the job and (b) not capable of the job they run.

Note the use of the word 'personally' in my statement. "I 'personally' don't live to work."

And as an aside, most of the guys I mentioned are deseparately unhappy, one is retraining for a career in landscape gardening, another is counting the days to when he can retire at 54 and another is planning to quit entirely to become a house-dad.

I wouldn't say myself either that contractors hold a myth about just permanent IT people being largely incompetant.

On the whole I've found that the majority of people I've worked with in IT at all levels have been incompetant and shouldn't have been there in the first place.

The difference is that it's much harder to get away with being an incompetant contractor than it is to get away with being an incompetant permanent employee.

TowerMan

People do you think only people working in IT are unhappy in their job while everybody else is having the time of their lives at work!! There are very few jobs out there that people don’t find some aspect that they don’t enjoy; it’s a matter of fact. It’s a job!! But IT compared to a lot of industries has great diversity in job roles. You can be a developer, tech support.....etc. I not its not secure and very few people get filthy rich out of it but there is worse ways to make a living..

Hobbes

DublinWriter wrote:

I wouldn't say myself either that contractors hold a myth about just permanent IT people being largely incompetant.

On the whole I've found that the majority of people I've worked with in IT at all levels have been incompetant and shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Which is the myth. Contractors would normally be called into situations where there is a problem that needs to be resolved. In these instances unhappy workers or incompetance could be the cause or symptom of that problem.

However that does not mean that all IT is this way. For example where I work I don't know of anyone who is incompetant in their job. If they were they would of been let go long ago. As for happy, thats a different story and varies from group/department and differing levels.

It is very similar to a role in IS departments. If everything is running smoothly you don't see the IS guys (as they solve the problem before you see it), however people see this as IS guys being slackers because of this or downsizing/outsourcing as obviously you are not getting enough problems to warrent the team.

The difference is that it's much harder to get away with being an incompetant contractor than it is to get away with being an incompetant permanent employee.

I don't believe this is entirely true either. I would say harder to maintain steady work as a contractor.

Trojan

There is also the category of people who are capable of being extremely competent at their job, but who for some reason are not (depression due to bad management, zero upward movement possibilities, etc). These people can appear to be either incompetant or burned out, depending on the perspective of the viewer.

bonkey

Hobbes wrote:

No, its used to describe software tools. There may be methodologies behind those but they wouldn't normally be referred to as CASE.

<pedant>

CASE == Computer Aided Software Engineering.

It is an approach. A methodology. Given that it is Computer-Aided, it requires tools on teh computer which assist. These are CASE Tools

4GL is a language classification, being short-hand for "fourth generation language" - a buzzword which lost all meaning and relevance sometime in the early 90s.
</pedant>

jc

DublinWriter

Hobbes wrote:

I don't believe this is entirely true either. I would say harder to maintain steady work as a contractor.

You're comparing apples with oranges. I originally said it was harder to get away with being an incompetant contractor than it is get away with being a incompetant permie.

I haven't had a day without client work in the last eight years, and I hope it continues *touch wood*.

secret_squirrel

bonkey wrote:

No offence ss, but if you're convinced that your managers are trying to set your department up for outsourcing, and are out to limit prospects....

what the hell are you staying there for????

Your department is not typical of IT. Its typical of departments which are going through a slow death, where corporate/union/whatever restrictions are forcing that to be drawn out, long and painful.

jc

You're pretty much spot on there - and I am in exit mode - however we are currently having dangled over our heads a huge voluntary redundancy package which makes it difficult to leave whilst this is still potentially on the table.

Thanks for putting up with my rants folks This isnt the normal me.

I would seriously consider working for the outsourcing company - but unfortunately 60% of the dept dont want it. When you look at their current salaries, and benefits and position in life (ie family types) then you can see why they want to stay put. Any management are using those of us who want to go as a lever against those who want to stay. Nice eh?

I must admit though - I do find it frustrating that we have some of the best technical people I have ever worked with but they are not being utilized in a way to maximise the benefit to the company and the senior managers think that an outsourcing company with no industry experience is going to do a better job that a committed management team would.

To give you another example of the calibre of our senior management team - one of the most respected and skill senior managers in the organisation was forced out to be replaced by out ex IT director so they could get the ex-IT guy out of the way before the outsourcing project exploded in their faces.
The guy walked into a massively high profile role with our major competitor 2 days after leaving. Needless to say our major competitor beats us hands down come results time.

Anyhow enough of my ranting. Good points made by all concerned.

run_Forrest_run

Wow! When I originally started this thread I didn't anticipate such interest...but thanks all for your input...some great stories/advice indeed...well I am still in the IT industry and maybe too lazy to actually get off my backside and get qualified to try something else...or maybe it's a matter of ' the grass is always greener on the other side'...who knows! But for now it's back to the code editor as there is a really annoying bug in this feckin code..

Hobbes

bonkey wrote:

<pedant>

CASE == Computer Aided Software Engineering.

I stand corrected. Apologies to Dublinwriter/Bonkey.

I haven't had a day without client work in the last eight years, and I hope it continues *touch wood*.

eep. I hope you didn't read what I posted as personally against you. :eek:

ando

I'm in IT for 4 years now. I've had enough and last year I decided to go for the fire brigade. I'm currently in the Aux Fire service and will be qualified in September, which I am hoping will help in the recruitment stage for the DFB. If the Garda recruit before the fire brigade I'll be going for that instead. I have friends in both jobs and the way they describe their job, it seems a lot more stimulating than what I'm doing now.
When I started in IT, I was all up for getting qualifications and experience, but now any motivation for me to get further IT qualifications has evaporated completely. While my area in IT is somewhat satisfying, I'm getting tired of the same bull. IT is something to fall back on

scojones

ando wrote:

IT is something to fall back on

Not if you don't keep up to speed with it.

clearz

Sounds to me that this is just more fallout from the dot-com boom in the late 90's when most ppl went into IT at the prospect of making a quick buck without a shread of intrest in computers. After the boom was over and the country was saturated in IT staff that had no real passion for it this had to be expected.
Between this and the lack of new graduates finnishing college with degrees in IT those of us that really loves what we are doing and went into IT for all the right reasons I think the future is $$$rosy$$$

Macbeth

The IT industry is twin sisters with the world of cut-throat business. After all, products produced by the IT industry feed almost exclusively into the business world. The Business world want things like yesteryear, and the marketing departments or whoever bids for projects in the world of IT bend over arseways to accommodate. CAVEAT!!!! lots of IT companies recruit on the pretence of long term with all the big salaries, bonus, company pension this blah that blah, but only really want people to fill a gap with cheap labour, then when they've got what they want they call you in for the review which starts off with..."Come in ...take a seat. Now we've been reviewing the ...project...worked very hard...deployed with great success...REDUNDANT...sorry...clear your desk...ermmm security watch (s)he doesn't sabotage the server...". Its a big con...sorry we're all surplus to requirements...chocolate teapots

wes

I will be starting my first proper IT job next week and while there is some great advice on this thread. I think I will stop reading this thread now lol.

bonkey

Macbeth wrote:

Its a big con...sorry we're all surplus to requirements...

Speak for yourself

No'ones ultimately indensible, but that doesn't make everyone surplus to requirements.

jc

Cake Fiend

clearz wrote:

Sounds to me that this is just more fallout from the dot-com boom in the late 90's when most ppl went into IT at the prospect of making a quick buck without a shread of intrest in computers. After the boom was over and the country was saturated in IT staff that had no real passion for it this had to be expected.

Spot on. If certain posters on this thread find it so easy to up and leave the whole IT industry behind, maybe they didn't have the passion for it in the first place. I'm only 5 or so years in IT professionally, but already I find it hard to entertain the idea of downing tools for another profession - if I were to leave a particular branch of IT due to frustration or whatever, it would have to be to another branch of IT. The notion of toddling off to the gardaí, dentistry, business, whatever seems alien to me.