A new low for SF?

murphaph

I was just watching UTVLive at 6 (09/08/05) and they revealed that SF had advised people not to go to the PSNI with information on the horrendous double-rape of a fifteen year old child. The spokeswoman from the Belfast Rape Crisis Centre was naturally sickened by this. I googled and could only find a mention on BBC NI's 'what the papers say', Here

'Moral bankruptcy'

The News Letter's editorial describes Sinn Fein's refusal to encourage the people of west Belfast to pass on information to the police about the horrendous rape as "pathetic, though true to form".

The paper calls the situation a reminder of Sinn Fein's "moral bankruptcy".

Is this a new low for SF? because I couldn't give a fcuking monkeys if you don't have confidence in the PSNI, this was the vile double-rape of a child and there can be no good reason for not going DIRECTLY to the police with any information you might have. :mad:

hill16

I think its a new low for you, using the rape of this child to get your anti Republican views across. :mad:

mike65

Ah dont fret, they'll send the lads round, who needs the rozzers eh?

Maybe they already know the attactkers are members/associates.

from iol

The rape shocked people in West Belfast and across Northern Ireland, especially as the attackers used their victim’s mobile phone to ring the girl’s mother and text her after the attack.

Mike.

oscarBravo

hill16 wrote:

I think its a new low for you, using the rape of this child to get your anti Republican views across. :mad:

Yup, that's much worse. :rolleyes:

murphaph

hill16 wrote:

I think its a new low for you, using the rape of this child to get your anti Republican views across. :mad:

I've no problem with republicans who act within the law. I have a big problem with rapists and others who break the law, and afaic SF's failure to encourage people to give whatever information they have to the police is disgusting. Your statement above is typical SF slight-of-hand, designed to throw people's attention from the key point.

hill16

Sorry I am not in Sinn Fein,I am only pointing out that some people will do anything to get one over on Republicans even using the rape of this child.And the Newsletter a Unionist paper is not the best source for what goes on in the Nationalist community.

murphaph

hill16 wrote:

Sorry I am not in Sinn Fein

No need to apologise for that!

hill16 wrote:

I am only pointing out that some people will do anything to get one over on Republicans even using the rape of this child.

I said SF, not republicans. SF don't have a monopoly on the term.

hill16 wrote:

And the Newsletter a Unionist paper is not the best source for what goes on in the Nationalist community.

Like I said, it was the only quote I could find on the net. The item came to my attention on UTVLive in an interview with the spokeswoman from the Rape Crisis Centre, a pretty apolitical association.

Anyway, if you've nothing to say about this thread (not me) then don't bother posting.

mike65

http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=63575&pt=n

Michael Browne, a Sinn Fein councillor accepted those who felt comfortable dealing with police should make contact with them.

He added: "Anyone without the confidence to deal directly with the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland) should make sure that what they know is placed in the public domain. It`s crucial these people are stopped."

So there you go.

Mike.

mycroft

hill16 wrote:

Sorry I am not in Sinn Fein,I am only pointing out that some people will do anything to get one over on Republicans even using the rape of this child.And the Newsletter a Unionist paper is not the best source for what goes on in the Nationalist community.

I'm sorry what? How is anyone using this "to get one over" on SF?

A girl has been raped. Raped. And SF publically announce

Anyone without the confidence to deal directly with the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland)

should do what?

Rather than "lets stop the bastards", it's some limp wristed if you don't feel confident with the PSNI don't go. In short SF use the opportunity of a rape to get a dig in at the PSNI. And you're sicken by

hill16 wrote:

I think its a new low for you, using the rape of this child to get your anti Republican views across.

Successful prosecutions on rape cases are down to an all time low, and SF are actively suggesting people not go to the police thereby reducing the potential success of any criminal case aganist the men.

This reminds me of this piece of doublethink by the INLA.

Davei141

I heard this on UTV aswell, i thought i was hearing things. How does anyone vote for these clowns.

hill16

Did Sinn Fein make a statement or publicly tell people "dont go to the PSNI about this rape".

murphaph

hill16 wrote:

Did Sinn Fein make a statement or publicly tell people "dont go to the PSNI about this rape".

UTV said they refused to comment when asked for a statement or an interview today. Unsurprising really, even they know this stinks to high heaven.

flogen

Pretty stupid, even if SF was right to have no confidence in the PSNI, the fact is that any information on the rape is better in their hands than kept private.
It's pretty disgusting when political parties in the north use something as abhorent as a rape to get their unrelated opinions across, I'm not saying SF are right or wrong to distrust the PSNI, but for god sake, you'd think they'd be big enough to put their differences aside for such a case.

hill16

I know people who live near were this rape took place.They told me that since the IRA statement the local hoods have been running amok knowing damn well that any action taken against them could result in slowing down the peace process.I am not saying this rape is a direct result of local hoods thinking they can get away with anything,but I think you will see a huge increase in serious crime in Nationalist areas.

mycroft

hill16 wrote:

I know people who live near were this rape took place.They told me that since the IRA statement the local hoods have been running amok knowing damn well that any action taken against them could result in slowing down the peace process.I am not saying this rape is a direct result of local hoods thinking they can get away with anything,but I think you will see a huge increase in serious crime in Nationalist areas.

I know someone who lives here Adams and apparently he regularly enjoys dressing up as frank-en-furter from the rocky horror picture show. Ancedotal "evidence" isn't proof.

How about SF supporting the policing board and letting the police do their job.

is_that_so

hill16 wrote:

I know people who live near were this rape took place.They told me that since the IRA statement the local hoods have been running amok knowing damn well that any action taken against them could result in slowing down the peace process.I am not saying this rape is a direct result of local hoods thinking they can get away with anything,but I think you will see a huge increase in serious crime in Nationalist areas.

No disputing that. Still a fairly heartless comment, that he thought he even had to say it. Ultimately they will be part of the policing boards and a good way to demonstrate that level of maturity is by the absence of inane policy statements.
IMHO it is indicative of the dearth of talent that lies below the top level of the party.

supersheep

Mycroft, I like the way you quote selectively from the councillor's words. He said if you feel comfortable with the PSNI, go to them. If not, tell someone, to make sure it gets to the PSNI.
Like it or not, some people don't like the PSNI, or accept it. This way, at least they find out who did it.
But if SF did say "Don't go to the PSNI"... then I have no respect for them.

oscarBravo

supersheep wrote:

Like it or not, some people don't like the PSNI, or accept it.

Like it or not, the PSNI is the police force in Northern Ireland. Whether you like that, or accept it, doesn't change the fact that the PSNI are the only organisation with both the capability and the authority to bring these animals to justice. A refusal to co-operate fully with them in a case like this is utterly unforgivable and reprehensible.

murphaph

I'm reminded of German and British troops playing football with each other on xmas day. Sure, they were slaughtering each other the rest of the time but they made an exception for xmas day. SF can't seem to swallow their pride and make the exception for this case and it's pretty sad really. The people they represent surely don't agree with this stance? It was a 15 year old girl and no matter what they think of the PSNI, their constituents have daughters, sisters and mothers and it could have been one of them or could be next. I very much doubt the majority of nationalists agree with SF's stance and if they do then to hell with them.

MrPudding

hill16 wrote:

........but I think you will see a huge increase in serious crime in Nationalist areas.

Yes, this is a big problem. Now that the IRA cannot police these areas there is a serious problem with policing those with criminal tendancies.

We need something to fill the gap. We need a group to keep an eye on the trouble makers. They should be able to arrest people when they do something illegal. They should be able to investigate illegal activity. They should be controlled by the governent and be accountable to someone outside of their own organisation. What could we call them? Well they should be a force to be reckoned with, we could call them "The force." Hmmm, that doesn't really tell us what they do. "The force of arresting and investigation." A bit too long maybe. I suppose you could call arresting people and investigation "policing." Ok, this mightwork, we could call them "The Police Force." Hmmm, not bad but maybe it is more of a service. After all they are providing a service. Yep, that's it, "The Police Service." Actually if this works other places may do the same thing, we will need a way to distinguish them from others, hmmm tricky. I think there is only one Northern Ireland in the world, so, I suppose we could call it "The Police Service of Northern Ireland." Yes that is it. I think it might just catch on.

MrP

[Edit] Sorry folks, silly me. Someone just told me there already is a proper police service in NI. Funny enough it is actaully called the Police Service of Northern Ireland, so I suppose I was on the right line.

supersheep

oscarBravo wrote:

Like it or not, the PSNI is the police force in Northern Ireland. Whether you like that, or accept it, doesn't change the fact that the PSNI are the only organisation with both the capability and the authority to bring these animals to justice. A refusal to co-operate fully with them in a case like this is utterly unforgivable and reprehensible.

That's true, but some people will not agree. They will find themselves unable to go to the police force, for whatever reason. And, to me, what the councillor was saying was, "Tell us if you can't tell them, and WE'LL tell the PSNI..."
Oh, and thanks, MrP - that made me giggle!

murphaph

supersheep wrote:

They will find themselves unable to go to the police force, for whatever reason.

Through some sort of paralysis or just good ol' fashioned Norn Iron beligerance? There's no fcuking limp-d!ck excuse that's good enough for not going to the police with info on this heinous crime. Fcuking hell I can't believe some people think there is.

supersheep

Well, some people do. Not me, but I can see why others might. And what difference does it make if the police find out anyways?

Davei141

Even if people do, thats totally irrellevant. The fact is a councellor shouldnt be saying stuff like that. He should be saying 'please help the police catch these people' if he starts going on about '...if your comfortable' its just hindering the investigation.

supersheep wrote:

And what difference does it make if the police find out anyways?

They want to run an investigation not a circus. And chinese whispers is hardly going to help it.

murphaph wrote:

Through some sort of paralysis or just good ol' fashioned Norn Iron beligerance? There's no fcuking limp-d!ck excuse that's good enough for not going to the police with info on this heinous crime. Fcuking hell I can't believe some people think there is.

Yeah its rediculous, the E-Fit they had was very specific i cant believe somebody hasnt given them up. 'I didnt come forward because i dont like the police...' If it was anywhere else people would be calling them just as bad.

mycroft

supersheep wrote:

Mycroft, I like the way you quote selectively from the councillor's words. He said if you feel comfortable with the PSNI, go to them. If not, tell someone, to make sure it gets to the PSNI.
Like it or not, some people don't like the PSNI, or accept it. This way, at least they find out who did it.
But if SF did say "Don't go to the PSNI"... then I have no respect for them.

No i picked the most pertinant section the quote. Suggesting that if know something "but don't feel comfortable to speak to the PSNI" to put it in the public domain, suggests and implies theres an alternative to the PSNI and the legitmate police service of NI.

Rape cases are incredibly difficult to prosecute, by saying this he's helping ensure these men get off scot free.

McClane

Not a shinner but a lot of peoples statements here are very ignorant.

Someone said like it or not the PSNI is the police yadda yadda yadda.

Theres very simple facts that a lot of people here don't seem to grasp. The PSNI are no more respected then the RUC were. To a lot of people they are no more a police force then the UVF are. I know quite a few people up North and most of them would be Nationalist but not very Republican. They wouldn't support the RA at all in the "war" and most vote SDLP (Or not at all, or independant) but the same people wouldn't go near the PSNI for anything. I know that the majority of the Republican people would never go near them either and would turn to their local RA/Whoever for protection etc.

Of course this is changing and hopefully the PSNI can gain the trust of everyone (Or hatred of everyone equally, that could work too). But at the moment i can't condemn Republicans/Nationalists who feel they can't go to the PSNI regardless of whatever the Crime was.

Needless to say though, i think the SF statement is being exaggerated/taken badly by people who just want to give out about them and for all their mistakes and the things that SF has done, i don't think this is a necessarily bad one.

oscarBravo

supersheep wrote:

That's true, but some people will not agree. They will find themselves unable to go to the police force, for whatever reason.

If that's the case, then they are effectively implicit in this heinous crime. There should be no political principle, no personal grudge, no lingering suspicion more important than justice for this unfortunate victim.

McClane

McClane wrote:

Of course this is changing and hopefully the PSNI can gain the trust of everyone (Or hatred of everyone equally, that could work too). But at the moment i can't condemn Republicans/Nationalists who feel they can't go to the PSNI regardless of whatever the Crime was.

Takes time,it's not helped by the non encouragement of Republicans to join under the 50:50 recruitment system.
It is helped by the effect Nuala o Loan is having on the propensity for bad apples.

Needless to say though, i think the SF statement is being exaggerated/taken badly by people who just want to give out about them and for all their mistakes and the things that SF has done, i don't think this is a necessarily bad one.

I'd agree to an extent.
SF should have said nothing at all on this issue.Whoever authorised a statement like what was said in relation to this was being as stupid as whoever authorised the columbia interviews.
They had no tact.

What they said didnt approve of rape,it didnt even approve of it by default,it didnt approve of this heinous crime by default.
What they said however was indicative of a wreckless lack of both thought and tact though in my view.
Somebody didn't have the cop on to realise the ramifications of applying SF policy to informing the police on an issue like this.

Now that was some slip up on their part TBH, they should have known better, much better.

oscarBravo

McClane wrote:

Not a shinner but a lot of peoples statements here are very ignorant.

Someone said like it or not the PSNI is the police yadda yadda yadda.

I said that, so I'll take it you're calling my statement ignorant.

McClane wrote:

Theres very simple facts that a lot of people here don't seem to grasp. The PSNI are no more respected then the RUC were. To a lot of people they are no more a police force then the UVF are.

I'm aware of that. I'm aware of the reasons for that. I'm also aware that it doesn't change the fact that they are the police. The existence or otherwise of a police force is not a subjective thing. It's not a matter of individual preference whether or not the police have the mandate and authority to investigate crimes. The PSNI are the police, and it is their job to investigate this disgusting crime, and there is a public duty on all citizens to support them in that task, whether they feel like it or not.

McClane wrote:

Of course this is changing and hopefully the PSNI can gain the trust of everyone

How exactly is that supposed to happen when elected representatives haven't the common decency to support them against the kind of despicable animals who committed this crime?

McClane wrote:

But at the moment i can't condemn Republicans/Nationalists who feel they can't go to the PSNI regardless of whatever the Crime was.

I most certainly can, and will, and do.

murphaph

I certainly agree that it would have been better if SF said nothing rather than say what they said.

McClane

it doesn't change the fact that they are the police. The existence or otherwise of a police force is not a subjective thing. It's not a matter of individual preference whether or not the police have the mandate and authority to investigate crimes

Nothing changes the fact that the PSNI are the police. Nothing changed the fact that the RUC were the police when they went around committing crimes against Nationalists in the North. Nothing changed the fact that it was the army that murdered 14 people on bloody sunday. Nothing changed the fact that it was the leader of a country who ordered the killing of such and such million jews, nothing changes the fact that it was the police/armed forces who committed how many atrocities in the world throughout history.
Thats not the point, no ones denying they are the police.

I am simply pointing out that a lot of people i know, friends for a long time have no respect for the PSNI as a police force. They grew up in fear of the police, their parents lived with a fully corrupt "protestant police for a protestant people" who treated them like the enemy.

I don't think that the fact that Republicans/Nationalists don't trust the police and won't go to them is something we can condemn because none of us have lived/grown up in a situation like that.

And another simple fact of the situation is that many Republicans don't consider Northern Ireland a legitimate state. It doesn't chage the fact that Northern Ireland exists and there is a police force called the PSNI there but it does change how these people would percieve anything or anyone who claims to represent such a state.

How exactly is that supposed to happen when elected representatives haven't the common decency to support them against the kind of despicable animals who committed this crime?

Its not up to Sinn Féin or the Republicans/Nationalists to earn the PSNI's trust, its up the PSNI to earn their trust. And i can't blame them at all for that considering what kind of force and what kind of police officers represented the RUC not so long ago.