A new low for SF?

mycroft

McClane wrote:

Nothing changes the fact that the PSNI are the police. Nothing changed the fact that the RUC were the police when they went around committing crimes against Nationalists in the North. Nothing changed the fact that it was the army that murdered 14 people on bloody sunday. Nothing changed the fact that it was the leader of a country who ordered the killing of such and such million jews, nothing changes the fact that it was the police/armed forces who committed how many atrocities in the world throughout history.

1. Godwin's law.

2. What relevance is this. The PSNI have changed from the RUC, complaints aganist them are dropping and they have the best ombudsman in the western world to investigate complaints.

I am simply pointing out that a lot of people i know, friends for a long time have no respect for the PSNI as a police force. They grew up in fear of the police, their parents lived with a fully corrupt "protestant police for a protestant people" who treated them like the enemy.

And what does old fears about the RUC have to do with the PSNI?

I don't think that the fact that Republicans/Nationalists don't trust the police and won't go to them is something we can condemn because none of us have lived/grown up in a situation like that.

Some of us have. Some of us have family up there.

And another simple fact of the situation is that many Republicans don't consider Northern Ireland a legitimate state. It doesn't chage the fact that Northern Ireland exists and there is a police force called the PSNI there but it does change how these people would percieve anything or anyone who claims to represent such a state.

Oh thats alright then, be a dear and tell the wee girl that "while you condemn her rape, unfortunately you won't speak to the police so then men get locked up, because philosophicaly speaking you don't recognise this state and it's police force?" That'd be some comfort to her.

Its not up to Sinn Féin or the Republicans/Nationalists to earn the PSNI's trust, its up the PSNI to earn their trust. And i can't blame them at all for that considering what kind of force and what kind of police officers represented the RUC not so long ago.

Nifty, and do you know what the PSNI could do to cultivate that trust? Maybe lock up some unpleasant rapists.

Theres no political angle to this, I don't see why the police shouldn't be unfettered and allowed to go in and get their job done.

Whats that you say, they are being allowed? Well to a point. And their job isn't being made earlier by SF members suggesting there is an alternative to speaking to the police. How about SF shut their goddamn gobs, unless it's to say "If you know something go to the police, and lets see these bastards locked up"

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Davei141

Whatever the PSNI do they'll be condemned from one for being too light and another for being too heavy handed. The PSNI arent out to earn trust theyre out to do their job, which is hampered by 'people not comfortable' giving information which may lead to the arrest of 2 rapists. Just because they have 'no respect' is hardly a reason to NOT give information.

mcclane wrote:

And another simple fact of the situation is that many Republicans don't consider Northern Ireland a legitimate state. It doesn't chage the fact that Northern Ireland exists and there is a police force called the PSNI there but it does change how these people would percieve anything or anyone who claims to represent such a state.

Probably the weakest thing ive ever heard for not giving information on rapists.

mcclane wrote:

I don't think that the fact that Republicans/Nationalists don't trust the police and won't go to them is something we can condemn because none of us have lived/grown up in a situation like that.

Of course we can condemn people for with-holding information, the 'police are bad' is hardly a reason that will wash with any decent person.

mcclane wrote:

I am simply pointing out that a lot of people i know, friends for a long time have no respect for the PSNI as a police force. They grew up in fear of the police, their parents lived with a fully corrupt "protestant police for a protestant people" who treated them like the enemy.

I know alot of people who have no respect for the police, the day i defend them for refusing information on such a crime is the day hell will freeze over.

Mighty_Mouse

Sinn Fein supporters and nationalists in the north dont exactly feel comfortable going to the police. Something to do with 30 years of collusion. In these circumstances SF have told people there are other options for those with information such as local SF councillors and priests. I dont see a problem there. Its actally encouraging people to speak up.

SF dont support policing. Thats a political issue.

Correct me if I'm wrong but SF havent said "dont go". They just dont endorse the police. Why would they unless its a trusworthy organisation for all people to feel comfortable reporting such crimes in the future.

Davei141

SF dont support policing. Thats a political issue.

And the penny drops. Precisely the reason people are outraged, playing political football with a rape.

tomMK1

as far as Im aware SF dont support either the PSNI nor the Policing Board until the Patton report is implimented in full.

Hope ye's are having fun with the SF bashing.

Mighty_Mouse

Fcuking hell I can't believe some people think there is.

having a child, parent spouse murdered might put you off a little imo!

And the penny drops. Precisely the reason people are outraged, playing political football with a rape.

Are they? I dont think SF have launched a public campaign using this as a reason to implement changes in policing. That would be political football. It would be insensitive to the familys involve cos it would put them in unnecessary spotlight IMO. ((even tho it's a perfect example of why we need changes in policing even more so in the wake of the IRA's disbandment.))

In fact its the people in here who are trying to play political football with a childs rape. Implying that it alone is reason enough for replublicans to trust a police force which has explicitly and implicitly murdered them for 30 years.

SF on the other hand are encouraging those people who might be afraid to approach the police, to approach their community representatives.

tomMK1

tomMK1 wrote:

Hope ye's are having fun with the SF bashing.

I hope you are having fun with the sinn Féin defending...


In the meantime could I ask all contributers to address the topic and avoid the one line digs.

is_that_so

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

having a child, parent spouse murdered might put you off a little imo! No I dont think SF have used this as a reason to implement changes in policing. That would be political football.

In fact its the people in here who are trying to play political football with a childs rape. Implying that it alone is reason enough for republicans to trust a police force which has explicitly and implicitly murdered them for 30 years.

SF on the other hand are encouraging those people who might be afraid to approach the police, to approach their community representatives.

Maybe the case but do at least acknowledge that the man is completely inept.
A lot of the scrutiny Sinn Fein are coming under and will continue to come under is down to the fact that they are now a "democratic" entity. It happens for all parties and yet I don't see Labour or FG or FF supporters ranting when they are under the microscope.

This is the real world and one into which Sinn Fein will have to grow up and stop regurgitating "policy" . Common sense and a brain cell in this case suggest this was really not the thing to say.

Sinn Fein still have the luxury of never being in Government anywhere. Although with that quality of candidate god help us all.

And to those who "feel the hurt" remember that no-one has a monopoly on suffering.

At the risk of repeating myself Sinn Fein WILL be a part of policing boards and sooner than expected and they should behave accordingly.

McClane

What relevance is this. The PSNI have changed from the RUC, complaints aganist them are dropping and they have the best ombudsman in the western world to investigate complaints.

Why the Republicans/Nationalists don't trust the PSNI is a political issue. I'm not defending Sinn Féin or peoples views. I'm simply stating them. The fact of the matter is that a large proportion of Repuclicans/Nationalists don't trust the PSNI any more thenthe RUC. This is a political matter which has little to do with the argument.

Probably the weakest thing ive ever heard for not giving information on rapists.

According to the article they said to give them the information and they'd pass it on. Your making a mountain out of a molehill and i'm no fan of Sinn Féin but to see how a lot of people just jump on them and twist facts to condemn them is pathetic.

Of course we can condemn people for with-holding information, the 'police are bad' is hardly a reason that will wash with any decent person.

I'm sure a lot of Irishmen went and reported crimes to the Black and Tans.

Whether you personally or anyone else here thinks that the Republican/Nationalists position on the PSNI is wrong or right is not the issue. Its their decision, they have to live with them.

I know alot of people who have no respect for the police, the day i defend them for refusing information on such a crime is the day hell will freeze over.

1. No one ever said withhold the information. You and others have bent the statement made by Sinn Féin to suit yourselves.

2. Refusing to give information here or in England is a very different situation to being afraid/not trusting the police in a newly established state that until very recently was a sectarian state and the police a sectarian police force.

I'm not going to go on because i have no like for Sinn Féin (Or politics) and i'm finding myself defending them and i don't like that.

I'm just going to say this, A large population of the people in the North don't/can't trust the Police. Its like asking a black man to trust the KKK, a jew to trust the SS (Godwin was a loser). These are, of course extreme examples of the same thing.

Whether or not you or i agree or disagree with their stance on the PSNI is not the question. They don't trust them and don't feel comfortable going to them so theres nothing wrong with going to someone else to relay the information. Up to very recently the IRA was their police force.

tomMK1

Earthman wrote:

I hope you are having fun with the sinn Féin defending...


In the meantime could I ask all contributers to address the topic and avoid the one line digs.

I was not defending rather simply stating the fact the Sinn Fein wont follow the PSNI or the policing board until th epatton report is implimented.

At least Im sticking to facts.

Mighty_Mouse

At the risk of repeating myself Sinn Fein WILL be a part of policing boards and sooner than expected .

I agree

and they should behave accordingly

an old unionist mindset. Republicans will be part of democratic institutions because they have a democratic right to be , not because anyone does or does not "let them". At the moment SF refusal to join the police board is throught their own choice. Not through exclusion. We would all hope the days of excluding democratically elected members of goverment from representing their consituents is gone.

By the way. When SF do agree to join the police authority it will be will the full expectation that they can achieve change. That they will be in a position to achieve change. Thats the difference between joining in the next few months and 5 years ago!!!

stevenmu

A poster claims that

SF had advised people not to go to the PSNI with information on the horrendous double-rape of a fifteen year old child

and then immediatly afterwards provides a quote describing it as

Sinn Fein's refusal to encourage the people of west Belfast to pass on information to the police

. How many people read this before jumping in with their preconcieved anti-SF propaganda ? Do people not see the difference here ? To me there's a huge difference between trying to cover up a horrible crime, which is what the OP and others are accusing them of, and just staying out of something that's none of their business. Do people expect Fianna Fail to get involved everytime there's a rape in the republic ? Why the hell would they, that's what police forces are for. People keep demanding SF stick to democratic means but guess what, in a true democracy, political parties don't interfere with criminal investigations !

mycroft

McClane wrote:

Why the Republicans/Nationalists don't trust the PSNI is a political issue. I'm not defending Sinn Féin or peoples views. I'm simply stating them. The fact of the matter is that a large proportion of Repuclicans/Nationalists don't trust the PSNI any more thenthe RUC. This is a political matter which has little to do with the argument.

yes it does, how exactly are the police going to gain their trust if SF run around trying to undermind their authority

According to the article they said to give them the information and they'd pass it on. Your making a mountain out of a molehill and i'm no fan of Sinn Féin

:rolleyes:

but to see how a lot of people just jump on them and twist facts to condemn them is pathetic.

And again convictions on rape cases are down to an all time low, how are the police supposed to react to second hand potentiall out dated info, and how gain they use it to garner a conviction.

Catch yourself on.

I'm sure a lot of Irishmen went and reported crimes to the Black and Tans.

Whether you personally or anyone else here thinks that the Republican/Nationalists position on the PSNI is wrong or right is not the issue. Its their decision, they have to live with them.

And that girl has to live with the fact that she's been raped.

I'm just going to say this, A large population of the people in the North don't/can't trust the Police. Its like asking a black man to trust the KKK, a jew to trust the SS (Godwin was a loser). These are, of course extreme examples of the same thing.

No they're not care to provide an example of the PSNI lynching someone, or rounding them up and putting them in concentration camps.

Whether or not you or i agree or disagree with their stance on the PSNI is not the question. They don't trust them and don't feel comfortable going to them so theres nothing wrong with going to someone else to relay the information. Up to very recently the IRA was their police force.

Ah well thanks okay then

is_that_so

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

an old unionist mindset.

My comments on expectations is merely expressing the mindset that there are expectations of people in public positions. The man in question clearly does not meet those standards given that he was incapable of commenting sensitively without spouting party policy.

Hydroquinone

stevenmu wrote:

People keep demanding SF stick to democratic means but guess what, in a true democracy, political parties don't interfere with criminal investigations !

If SF had kept their beaks shut about this particular criminal investigation, no one could accuse them of playing fast and loose with democratic means, though, could they?
In this case, they vastly overstepped the mark of what is expected of a purely political party, so, yes, I agree with you.

murphaph

I have to say, I thought this thread would die a quick death. I naively assumed that nobody would agree that SF were right to open their big mouths on this.

MrPudding

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

having a child, parent spouse murdered might put you off a little imo!

So are you saying that everyone that distrust the PSNI has has a child, parent or spouse murdered by them? I don't think so.

A lot of really bad stuff has happened in the north. What I love about threads like this is the SF supporters are telling everyone we need to forget the past and move on. You know, forget about the lads blowing up pubs and killing kids and what have you. Yet at the same time point blank refusing to put the RUC in the past.

I admit that the PSNI needs to earn the trust of some of the population in the North. At the same time some of the population needs to earn the trust of the PSNI. There are a lot of good people in the PSNI, I would even go so far as to say there were a lot of good people in the RUC and many of them got a really raw deal from sections of the NI population.

MrP

tomMK1

MrPudding wrote:

What I love about threads like this is the SF supporters are telling everyone we need to forget the past and move on. You know, forget about the lads blowing up pubs and killing kids and what have you. Yet at the same time point blank refusing to put the RUC in the past.

but the RUC/PSNI is still the same .. the IRA have promised to disarm and do legal things. if the time came where something was done about the PSNI and the policing issue in general, then I'd gladly forget about the RUC.

mycroft

tomMK1 wrote:

but the RUC/PSNI is still the same .. the IRA have promised to disarm and do legal things. if the time came where something was done about the PSNI and the policing issue in general, then I'd gladly forget about the RUC.

Prove evidence etc, there several examples of how the PSNI has changed from the RUC, your rebuttal could be summed up as "Nuh uh"

hill16

The RUC special branch is still intact,ohh sorry I meant the PSNI.

monument

Michael Browne, a Sinn Fein councillor accepted those who felt comfortable dealing with police should make contact with them.

He added: "Anyone without the confidence to deal directly with the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland) should make sure that what they know is placed in the public domain. It`s crucial these people are stopped."

- UTV

I'm I missing something here?

He saying there are other outlets to go to....

tomMK1 wrote:

but the RUC/PSNI is still the same ..

mycroft wrote:

Prove evidence etc, there several examples of how the PSNI has changed from the RUC, your rebuttal could be summed up as "Nuh uh"

None of which matters in this case. What the 'RUC', or 'PSNI', or the police, or what ever you want to call them are really like doesn't matter in this case.

The fact is there a large amount of people who simply don't trust the police, or can't be seen going to the police (because it could be seen as being about another matter etc), or whatever.

So here we have a Sinn Fein councillor saying it's ok to go to the police, but if you don't want to just get the infromation out there some how.

Sinn Fein councillor - "be carefull while crossing the road"
Sunday Indo Inc - 'PSNI rubish at policing the roads - SF'

hill16

As I said at the start of this post,some people will use anything to get thier anti Republican view across even the rape of a child.The fact is Sinn Fein did not tell people not to go to Police about this case.

Flex

I think this is really just a SF bashing thread. From the statement quoted by mike65 at post 8...

Michael Browne, a Sinn Fein councillor accepted those who felt comfortable dealing with police should make contact with them.

He added: "Anyone without the confidence to deal directly with the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland) should make sure that what they know is placed in the public domain. It`s crucial these people are stopped."

...I think that its fairly clear what SF were saying was "If you feel comfortable then go to the police and give evidence and help them catch these people. If not, then make sure they get the information some how,ie. pass it onto a local representative or priest or something, who will give it to the PSNI"

The simple fact is some nationalists/republicans simply dont trust the PSNI.Its not simply that they dont like the PSNI. So, SF are providing people who feel like that an alternative. If you dont trust the PSNI or whatever, and dont want to go to them, then make sure the information you have is made known to them or relayed to them somehow(ie. placed in the public domain), rather than doing nothing. If i had to hazard a guess, Id say they are trying to help this investigation.

If it was a case that they were saying "We dont recognise the PSNI's authority, dont go to them, make no effort to assist them", then they should be completely condemned outright, and anyway standing up for them should be ashamed of themselves. BUT, thats not the case here. They are trying to help the investigation. Im no fan of SF, but people are simply misinterpreting the facts (on purpose or for whatever reason)to bash SF, when theyre actually trying to do some good.

mycroft

Flex wrote:

The simple fact is some nationalists/republicans simply dont trust the PSNI.Its not simply that they dont like the PSNI. So, SF are providing people who feel like that an alternative. If you dont trust the PSNI or whatever, and dont want to go to them, then make sure the information you have is made known to them or relayed to them somehow(ie. placed in the public domain), rather than doing nothing. If i had to hazard a guess, Id say they are trying to help this investigation.

And again, how does this information "enter the public domain" a vague description at best, and adding an extra link in the chain to the police increases the likelyhood of misinformation, and delays which could prevent the investigation for making an arrest or garnering a conviction.

SF are the ones who turned this into a political football, by adding that little dig re the "public domain, and the suggestion that for whatever reason people should/or don't trust the PSNI"

The only response should be, "This was an non political, non sectarian henious crime, anyone who knows anything is urged by SF to go to the police"

Comments like the ones made by SF reinforce people's negative reputation of the PSNI.

oscarBravo

monument wrote:

I'm I missing something here?

Evidently.

monument wrote:

He saying there are other outlets to go to....

Yeah, you could tell your dog. That'll help secure a conviction.

monument wrote:

The fact is there a large amount of people who simply don't trust the police...

Don't trust them to investigate a rape? If you don't trust the police to investigate a crime, who do you trust? Your friendly neighbourhood vigilantes? That'll really advance the cause of peace and justice in Northern Ireland.

monument wrote:

or can't be seen going to the police (because it could be seen as being about another matter etc), or whatever.

Ah, now we get to the nub of the issue: it's not so much that Joe doesn't trust the police, as that Joe better not be seen to trust the police if he knows what's good for him.

monument wrote:

So here we have a Sinn Fein councillor saying it's ok to go to the police, but if you don't want to just get the infromation out there some how.

What any respectable politician would say is: go to the police.

oscarBravo

Flex wrote:

The simple fact is some nationalists/republicans simply dont trust the PSNI.Its not simply that they dont like the PSNI. So, SF are providing people who feel like that an alternative.

The problem is that SF are effectively saying "it's OK not to trust the police".

stevenmu

Hydroquinone wrote:

If SF had kept their beaks shut about this particular criminal investigation, no one could accuse them of playing fast and loose with democratic means, though, could they?
In this case, they vastly overstepped the mark of what is expected of a purely political party, so, yes, I agree with you.

To be honest I haven't heard yet exactly how this mess got started. All I've seen is reports that they didn't try to encourage people to come forward, so in that sense they did try to keep their beaks shut, and still landed in it anyway.


Does anyone know if any prominent unionists have come forward and called on people to go to the police ? (especially before this became an issue)

is_that_so

stevenmu wrote:

Does anyone know if any prominent unionists have come forward and called on people to go to the police ? (especially before this became an issue)

They shouldn't have to. In the same way Sinn Fein should have left it alone and not waved policy at it. I'd be well put out if some dimwit councillor was doing my thinking for me.

Mighty_Mouse

Yeah, you could tell your dog. That'll help secure a conviction

Thats not what was said and you know it. There are people who will not approach the police under any circumstances. I dont see the problem in providing an outlet for this otherwise missing information

Don't trust them to investigate a rape?

Dont trust them..............fullstop. Again its the same members of the same police force that wathed Robert Hamill be kicked to death. http://justice.club24.co.uk/testimony.html
The same police force that was implicit in numerous murders throughout the north. Are you seriously expecting republicans in the north to come forward to this force with confessions. Remember that only a short time ago the policy for republicans was the less the police knew about your family the better. The more the knew about who you were and where you lived the more likely a visit from the UVF, LVF, Red Hand Defenders would be. Try taking reality into account before trying to comment on the situation up north.

it's not so much that Joe doesn't trust the police, as that Joe better not be seen to trust the police if he knows what's good for him.

See above. Do you honestly believe your version over the one I have offered?

What any respectable politician would say is: go to the police.

see below:

Michael Browne, a Sinn Fein councillor accepted those who felt comfortable dealing with police should make contact with them