How are southernern members of the PSNI perceived?

rsynnott

catholicireland wrote:

Ha! That Wilde quote (if true, i dont know), is complete nonsence, but not really surprising!

If by "is true, I don't know", you mean is it really a Wilde quote or just something I made up and affixed "Wilde" to, then yes, it is a Wilde quote. And I would argue that it is by no means nonsense. Patriotism; a blind belief in the virtues of ones country; is (a) silly and (b) frequently harmful

segaBOY

Earthman wrote:

The problem with that view/analysis though is that most people accept the PSNI in NI-Ergo wouldnt it be better to compromise and move away from the extreme analysis and onto the "gradualist" approach that we have now.
IE tough regulation of the force coupled with a gradual improvement of the catholic representation on it.
It will take time, but so will a united Ireland.

I believe if republicans were not betrayed by the Gerry Adams leadership I would begin to gradually accept some British involvement however the betrayal of veterans has led me to move to an extremist republican view, as I said before however I support Fianna Fáil (mainly because I believe they bettered us economically) so I won't be throwing on the balaclava of the Continuity IRA anytime soon.

When I say betrayed I believe Adams let the Northern Bank robbery just happen without warning the IRA what implications it would have, he let the IRA chief of staff handle the McCartney murder in a sloppy fashion, just waiting for them to destroy themselves and eventually give up the armed struggle in an embarrassing fashion-something which I, as an Irishman, am very ashamed of. An army which was meant to protect Irish citizens like myself was turned into a media joke.

FTA69

I don't expect you to have respect for anything or anyone. Just like anyone else. My expectations are limited to what people post. And bluntly calling all members of any given police force "pigs" in a post makes me think that the post isn't going to offer me anything worthwhile.

I didn't call all members of any given police force "pigs", I called members of the PSNI pigs.

Feel free to drop me a PM where someone calls all members of that particular grouping "scumbags" and I might point it out in a post.

Will do.

Rysnott,

Abuse of the police doing their job is perfectly acceptable, however...

I don't think a "job" that consists of forcing bigots down sensitive areas, harassing political activists that don't agree with you and planting bugs all over the place is one to be particularly proud of.

mycroft

segaBOY wrote:

When I say betrayed I believe Adams let the Northern Bank robbery just happen without warning the IRA what implications it would have, he let the IRA chief of staff handle the McCartney murder in a sloppy fashion, just waiting for them to destroy themselves and eventually give up the armed struggle in an embarrassing fashion-something which I, as an Irishman, am very ashamed of. An army which was meant to protect Irish citizens like myself was turned into a media joke.

When was the last time you or anyone you know need to called the IRA to protect themselves?

FTA69 wrote:

I didn't call all members of any given police force "pigs", I called members of the PSNI pigs.

Cute semantics. Calling an entire police force "pigs" was the thrust of Sceptre's point.

I don't think a "job" that consists of forcing bigots down sensitive areas, harassing political activists that don't agree with you and planting bugs all over the place is one to be particularly proud of.

And arresting murderers, rapists, and unionist thugs isn't?

You can cherry pick the issues you have with PSNI while ignoring some of the things they've done, and the things SF et all have hindered them doing.

segaBOY

mycroft wrote:

When was the last time you or anyone you know need to called the IRA to protect themselves?

They protected my community from drug dealers in 1996, they protected my fellow Irishmen and women by lying in wait against loyalist attack on nationalist areas, in truth, they had built up such a name for themselves loyalists could only dream of fighting a winning battle against the IRA and it's peoples it vowed to protect after the provos were formed in 1969

FTA69

You can cherry pick the issues you have with PSNI

Indeed I can, as many anti-Republicans do as well regarding the police. I still believe however, that they are not a trustworthy organisation worthy of support until the Patten reforms have been implemented in full. I'd love to know why they keep stalling the issue.

mycroft

segaBOY wrote:

They protected my community from drug dealers in 1996, they protected my fellow Irishmen and women by lying in wait against loyalist attack on nationalist areas, in truth, they had built up such a name for themselves loyalists could only dream of fighting a winning battle against the IRA and it's peoples it vowed to protect after the provos were formed in 1969

So that'd be a no then. Grand so.

FTA69 wrote:

I'd love to know why they keep stalling the issue.

Hmmmmm gosh I wonder. Seen 29million lying around recently?

murphaph

FTA69 wrote:

I don't think a "job" that consists of forcing bigots down sensitive areas, harassing political activists that don't agree with you and planting bugs all over the place is one to be particularly proud of.

The less said about that republican (IRA styled) parade in Ballymena, the better

segaBOY

mycroft wrote:

So that'd be a no then. Grand so.

Just because my area is free of bigoted attacks (yeah Cork is a bit far down) doesn't mean fellow Irishmen and women need a force acting like the PIRA to protect them, get a history book, see Bombay Street

Hydroquinone

segaBOY wrote:

When I say betrayed I believe Adams let the Northern Bank robbery just happen without warning the IRA what implications it would have, he let the IRA chief of staff handle the McCartney murder in a sloppy fashion, just waiting for them to destroy themselves and eventually give up the armed struggle in an embarrassing fashion-something which I, as an Irishman, am very ashamed of. An army which was meant to protect Irish citizens like myself was turned into a media joke.

What? Adams could tell the IRA what to do? :eek:
And what? The IRA carried out that bank robbery? :eek:
And what eile? The IRA protects us citizens, does it? :eek: :eek:

Do me a favour.

Aside from the fact that no one on these boards is ever allowed to say that the IRA carried out that robbery, without being called on it and also that Gerry Adams was ever in the IRA, without being asked for verifiable proof, let alone on the board of directors of it; the feckin' Gards can't stop the gurriers round these parts from being gurriers, so unless you can give me the phone number of the IRA to get them to come and sort these aggravating little ****es out who vandalise my garage and slash the tyres on the cars down our road, for the craic, then kindly don't begin tell me that the IRA are doing anything at all whatsoever for me.
Even if they were still in operation. Which they aren't of course.

segaBOY

Hydroquinone wrote:

What? Adams could tell the IRA what to do? :eek:
And what? The IRA carried out that bank robbery? :eek:
And what eile? The IRA protects us citizens, does it? :eek: :eek:

Do me a favour.

Aside from the fact that no one on these boards is ever allowed to say that the IRA carried out that robbery, without being called on it and also that Gerry Adams was ever in the IRA, without being asked for verifiable proof, let alone on the board of directors of it; the feckin' Gards can't stop the gurriers round these parts from being gurriers, so unless you can give me the phone number of the IRA to get them to come and sort these aggravating little ****es out who vandalise my garage and slash the tyres on the cars down our road, for the craic, then kindly don't begin tell me that the IRA are doing anything at all whatsoever for me.
Even if they were still in operation. Which they aren't of course.

www.sinnfein.ie I think there is a phone number there


Seriously, don't play me for a fool, lets just presume they carried out the robbery and PRESUME Gerry Adams was a director, then I presumably believe he did betray republicans

mycroft

segaBOY wrote:

Just because my area is free of bigoted attacks (yeah Cork is a bit far down) doesn't mean fellow Irishmen and women need a force acting like the PIRA to protect them, get a history book, see Bombay Street

Yes a history book, and you'll discover that the loyalist pograms stopped nearly thirty years ago, I'm a little unclear now warrington, canary warf, guilford, birmingham, brighton, enniskillen ad nauseum, essentially be held up as justifed because thirty years ago there was mob violence.

Keep in mind the first RUC man was killed protecting nationalist communities from loyalist mobs.

Holding up events of the late 60s to justify the whole campaign is a weak defence.

segaBOY

mycroft wrote:

Yes a history book, and you'll discover that the loyalist pograms stopped nearly thirty years ago, I'm a little unclear now warrington, canary warf, guilford, birmingham, brighton, enniskillen ad nauseum, essentially be held up as justifed because thirty years ago there was mob violence.

Keep in mind the first RUC man was killed protecting nationalist communities from loyalist mobs.

Holding up events of the late 60s to justify the whole campaign is a weak defence.

I am not just using those events, I believe the moral and legal status of "Northern Ireland" should be one of a full 32 county Irish republic, I'll use that to justify the PIRA campaign, go raibh maith agat

mycroft

So at first;

segaBOY wrote:

An army which was meant to protect Irish citizens like myself

Now it's;

segaBOY wrote:

I believe the moral and legal status of "Northern Ireland" should be one of a full 32 county Irish republic, I'll use that to justify the PIRA campaign, go raibh maith agat

Considering more nationalists and catholics were killed by the IRA than by any other side in the conflict, it's nice to find you can find some pathetic little excuse for their deaths.

This is not to drift any further off topic than it has done.

Segaboy,whether you are Irish or Japanese,it doesnt matter with regards to being ashamed of what ever nationality you have.
You are but one of that nationality so speak for yourself and don't presume to be speaking for every Irishman/woman.

As regards the PIRA campaign,it did not carry the moral support of the Irish people.It amazes but does not surprise me some people cod themselves into thinking that it did.

Now if ye want to continue that topic - open another thread.

murphaph

Trying to drag this back OT.....
Here's a link to an article about policing perceptions in Belfast. It's not exactly what I was thinking about when I started this thread but there's an interesting quote from a community worker in a catholic area of west Belfast;

Mr McConville says: "If those people joining the police are middle-class Catholics, they don't represent the kids here. If you had young nationalists or republicans joining, that would be progress."

So now any old catholics joining up isn't good enough. It has to be republicans or nationalists and he also implied that you couldn't be republican/nationalist and a middle class catholic :rolleyes:

oscarBravo

segaBOY wrote:

...I support Fianna Fáil (mainly because I believe they bettered us economically)

...

A Dub In Glasgo wrote:

you would be amazed at how low some folk will go to get some money

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

I didn't call all members of any given police force "pigs", I called members of the PSNI pigs.

You effectively called all members of the PSNI pigs. It's hard to see how that position could be described as anything other than bigoted.

mycroft

oscarBravo wrote:

You effectively called all members of the PSNI pigs. It's hard to see how that position could be described as anything other than bigoted.

Now Oscarbravo. Loyalists and Unionists are bigoted, Republicans are expressing deep seeded grievances which force "regretable" attitudes, that if the other side conformed and tried to help resolve the issues, they're still not doing enough.

Its amazing, the IRA are fighting to "protect irishmen and bring about a united ireland" but once an Irishman become a member of the PSNI, when they hey, fair game, and you're a pig.

I don't doubt the PSNI and the Garda contain less than savoury characters, but the past three years have been for me a learning experience and I've walked away with a greater respect for certain members of the force than I thought I could ever give credit for. Meanwhile children like FTA69 are happy to call the entirity of the PSNI pigs, while attributing characteristics akin to the Fianna to the IRA, whenever a smug of ill repute hits the IRA we're "assured" these men where "dissents" or "acting in an unrepublican manner" or "had been forced to leave the IRA recently". While the actions of any PSNI member is used to smear the entire force.

Whats that you say, the PSNI is an accountable body? Well for starts you're right they are, with the finest police complaints commision in the western world. However as IRA/SF supporters keep bleating on, they're not terrorists, they're an army. They're an army alright, accept when they're expected to hold their own accountable to any remotely acceptable standard of an army.

If Irishmen, from the south, fancy joining one of the most difficult policing jobs in the western world good luck to them. The fact that more Irishmen, catholics, join the PSNI, and the 'RA sympathisers find an excuse to belittle people doing what SF demand (a police force more intune with cultural and religious demographics) just exposes their small minded bigotry and indifference and unwilliness to change.

gurramok

Those that join the PSNI from the republic should be ashamed of themselves.
The Gardai down here are crying out for quality recruits and these fellows couldn't be bothered to serve and protect their own country and jump ship to another jurisdiction.

If it's a lack of action that deters them to join the gards, they should try to get assigned to the numerous no-go areas of Dublin and other cities and let them see their quality in action against the scumbags/gurriers/skangers.
It ain't helping the peace process either, you'll end up having the PSNI full of southern brogues, hardly acceptable to the joe-soap loyalist on the street, it'll just alienate that section of the community which is not wanted at this time.

mycroft

gurramok wrote:

Those that join the PSNI from the republic should be ashamed of themselves.
The Gardai down here are crying out for quality recruits and these fellows couldn't be bothered to serve and protect their own country and jump ship to another jurisdiction.

If you look back to the OP you'll notice he says his mates have applied for both and are willing to accept either.

Some of the entry requirements to the Garda are farcial.

A number of years ago, a very unscruplous barrister informed me, that if you were guilty bang to rights guilty. But were on bail, and didn't fancy going to prison. Demand the trial be conducted through irish.

Because of our constitution any citizen has the right to have their trial conducted through irish (I'm going somewhere okay)

Because all garda and court officals and legal professionals should be able to speak fulent irish the trial should go ahead, but if a crucial slip up occurs in translation a mistrial can easily take place.

Now heres my point.

Despite our blossoming multicultural population we have (as of 2003) one traveller cop and one black cop. We face the situation the british faced in the seventies, with the puny amount of racial minorities in the force.

My greater point comes next.

If it's a lack of action that deters them to join the gards, they should try to get assigned to the numerous no-go areas of Dublin and other cities and let them see their quality in action against the scumbags/gurriers/skangers.

Thats an assumption. I sincerely doubt theres someone who looks at straband, or the drumcree riots with the firearms, blast bombs, nail bombs, and thinks to themselves "i fancy some of that"

In much the same way, people don't really fancy travelling to a dubious area, to face a hostile population.

These guys want to be cops, and the impression I get the north is their second choice, the level of violence and intimidation they face would not be appealing to anyone, esp since you're suggesting they're offered an alternative an reject it.

It ain't helping the peace process either, you'll end up having the PSNI full of southern brogues, hardly acceptable to the joe-soap loyalist on the street, it'll just alienate that section of the community which is not wanted at this time.

So you think joe soap loyalist is going to accept a bobby from the markets just as easily?

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

Those that join the PSNI from the republic should be ashamed of themselves.
The Gardai down here are crying out for quality recruits and these fellows couldn't be bothered to serve and protect their own country and jump ship to another jurisdiction.

Hmmmm, actually I think you'll find the Garda have their pick of recruits. Most people that go for initial aptitude testing will not be offered an interview.

As for being ashmed of themselves for performing a job abroad that they could perform here, that is plain stupid because that means nobody should leave Ireland to work in any sector where they could find work in Ireland. Ever heard of the EU and the free movement of peoples? Oh I forgot, SF and their ilk are an inward looking shower of c*nts who'd happily take us back to dancing at the crossroads, safe in the knowledge that Dev was looking down from heaven with fondness. :rolleyes:

mycroft

murphaph wrote:

Hmmmm, actually I think you'll find the Garda have their pick of recruits. Most people that go for initial aptitude testing will not be offered an interview.

As for being ashmed of themselves for performing a job abroad that they could perform here, that is plain stupid because that means nobody should leave Ireland to work in any sector where they could find work in Ireland. Ever heard of the EU and the free movement of peoples? Oh I forgot, SF and their ilk are an inward looking shower of c*nts who'd happily take us back to dancing at the crossroads, safe in the knowledge that Dev was looking down from heaven with fondness. :rolleyes:

Exactly, these ilk keep bleating about a "united ireland" but whenever an example of this occurs, southerns willing and eager to join the PSNI, they start muttering about "traitors and turncounts". Just because this vision of a united doesn't conform to the standard masturbation fantasy of the SF leadership's version of reunification (I dunno, Adams being confirmed taoiseach for life, on the hill of tara by the restless ghosts of O'Connell, Tone, and Grattan, who depart, finally at peace. Meanwhile the jubliant crowds are entertained by the national orchestra of Ireland perform their version "a nation once again", a global number one, for the 16th week running, as big screens, play Paisleys the rest of the DUP and their supporters doing a modern day flight of the earls, from belfast, while celtic win the treble for the third year running) anyway this is eposed as irishmen being traitors, when it's a reality of the praticalities of a potential unitied ireland, and just because it doesn't suit their idealised version of events, it and sourthern psni members are sneered at.

gurramok

mycroft wrote:

Some of the entry requirements to the Garda are farcial.

Very true, but the PSNI does have that 50/50 requirement based on religion and would just as hard to join when they are reducing their numbers to suit peacetime roles.

mycroft wrote:

Thats an assumption. I sincerely doubt theres someone who looks at straband, or the drumcree riots with the firearms, blast bombs, nail bombs, and thinks to themselves "i fancy some of that"

These events are once-off and controlled by riot police with army backup not the ordinary constable.
General crime which I once heard on BBC News NI is much lower on average in NI than anywhere in either the UK or the ROI.

mycroft wrote:

In much the same way, people don't really fancy travelling to a dubious area, to face a hostile population.

PSNI are heavily armed unlike the Gardai hence their job is much easier to handle any threat from a criminal.

mycroft wrote:

These guys want to be cops, and the impression I get the north is their second choice, the level of violence and intimidation they face would not be appealing to anyone, esp since you're suggesting they're offered an alternative an reject it.

The impression I get is that they do it for better money and less hassle on the job.

mycroft wrote:

So you think joe soap loyalist is going to accept a bobby from the markets just as easily?

Well, the Belfast accent would help, the joe-soap loyalist wouldn't have a clue whether the officer was from a nationalist/unionist background unless the officer tells him!...hence giving the impression that the officer is 'local'
A southern brogue would be marked and confrontational as alien to a loyalist, hardly many southern loyalists with thick Kerry accents!

murphaph wrote:

Hmmmm, actually I think you'll find the Garda have their pick of recruits. Most people that go for initial aptitude testing will not be offered an interview.

As for being ashmed of themselves for performing a job abroad that they could perform here, that is plain stupid because that means nobody should leave Ireland to work in any sector where they could find work in Ireland. Ever heard of the EU and the free movement of peoples? Oh I forgot, SF and their ilk are an inward looking shower of c*nts who'd happily take us back to dancing at the crossroads, safe in the knowledge that Dev was looking down from heaven with fondness.

Yes, free movement of people to the PSNI should be a special exemption to the free moevement of people as it has a 50/50 rule but sadly its not, same would be the case if the PSNI was full of English/Mongolian officers, shouldn't the local police be sourced locally from the communities they are resident like in rest of UK/ROI?

Does it help that the 'Catholic' percentage of recruitment is from outside NI rather than inside NI?...IMHO..no!

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

Yes, free movement of people to the PSNI should be a special exemption to the free moevement of people as it has a 50/50 rule but sadly its not, same would be the case if the PSNI was full of English/Mongolian officers, shouldn't the local police be sourced locally from the communities they are resident like in rest of UK/ROI?

Wrong! Officers in all UK police forces can be and are recruited from anywhere in the UK, every country in the Commonwealth and Ireland. The PSNI is no different to for example, West Yorkshire Constabulary! Lots of Irish in the Met, for example. Not sure what An Garda Siochana's rules are wrt citizenship requirements of potential members.

gurramok

Are you saying that to join any UK police force, your Irish citizenship is not a factor unlike if you had non-UK/Irish citizenship?...
If its the case, its hardly fair to any EU recruit no mind a Mongolian considering Ireland is a soverign nation like any EU potential member !...

Its hardly a case for free movement of people in EU that they are barred for not being Irish/British to join any UK police force.
Its hardly fair in employment rights is it?...think I forecast a case in EU law in the future on that rule!

rsynnott

This is presumably because of the huge ball of special cases that is NI; its citizens have a sort of dual citizenship.

mycroft

gurramok wrote:

Very true, but the PSNI does have that 50/50 requirement based on religion and would just as hard to join when they are reducing their numbers to suit peacetime roles.

So? You've had evidence from both posters and the BBC saying they (republicans) don't trust the members from their side of the conflict joining, so why don't they accept members of said religious group from down south, joining. Seriously whats your point?

These events are once-off and controlled by riot police with army backup not the ordinary constable.
General crime which I once heard on BBC News NI is much lower on average in NI than anywhere in either the UK or the ROI.

I'm sorry what? Do you have anything to substantiate the above. The degree of black market activity in the north is staggering.

Not to mention such simple things as this. When the PSNI first went to pick up the accused in the Mc Cartney murder, the police had to go in in full riot gear just to pick up the witnesses. Why? Because entering into that area of belfast they faced immediate and violent organised riots, to pick up witnesses.

Not to mention policing a part of ireland where they'll let two men bleed on the street for an hour, and the only reason robert and his mate were taken to hosipital was a passing police car saw them?

PSNI are heavily armed unlike the Gardai hence their job is much easier to handle any threat from a criminal.

Oh yeah, delusional much? Riots during July for the past ten years have included, blast, nail, and acid bombs. Not to mention the quanity of firearms roaming the north.

The rules for the use of live ammunition, by the PSNI, have been strengthen and more strigent requirements and a more serious investigation over the use of PSNI's use of live ammo was one of the first roles Nual Ni Luan was to clarify the rules of engagement for the PSNI to use live ammo, beyond any other force in the western world.

Then theres sporadic use of firearms in the south. or the fact that at any major riot in ireland since the embassy protests over the death of bobby sands haven't included any improvised explosives.

Less than five years ago, during the worst of the riots over the orange order, over a hundred police were injuried over the course of one marching season, the suggestion that, the PSNI are coasting down easy street is just laughable.

Compare the level of violence and injury of police in the south in public protest (may days) and in the line of duty (aside from Mc Cabe pretty much every garda who's lost their live in the line of duty has been in traffic accidents, for nigh on a decade), to the level of violence and danger the average PSNI officer faces in july is just pathetic.

The impression I get is that they do it for better money and less hassle on the job.

And this impression is based on?

Well, the Belfast accent would help, the joe-soap loyalist wouldn't have a clue whether the officer was from a nationalist/unionist background unless the officer tells him!...hence giving the impression that the officer is 'local'
A southern brogue would be marked and confrontational as alien to a loyalist, hardly many southern loyalists with thick Kerry accents!

Yeah I'm figuring the average unionists won't figure out the background of officers O'Shea, Mc Cartney, O'Brien, and O'Reilly if they've got belfast accents. Oh they'll have no idea where they're from and what community they were born into. :rolleyes:

Yes, free movement of people to the PSNI should be a special exemption to the free moevement of people as it has a 50/50 rule but sadly its not, same would be the case if the PSNI was full of English/Mongolian officers, shouldn't the local police be sourced locally from the communities they are resident like in rest of UK/ROI?

So what, you're suggesting conscription?

Does it help that the 'Catholic' percentage of recruitment is from outside NI rather than inside NI?...IMHO..no!

Two questions. Why? Not? They're catholic. Are they less catholic because the bishop of Armagh didn't confirm 'em?

Victor

murphaph wrote:

Wrong! Officers in all UK police forces can be and are recruited from anywhere in the UK, every country in the Commonwealth and Ireland. The PSNI is no different to for example, West Yorkshire Constabulary! Lots of Irish in the Met, for example. Not sure what An Garda Siochana's rules are wrt citizenship requirements of potential members.

I think its largely down to the Irish language rules. Anyone could be a member, but few have the language. There is talk of changing this, specifily where they need people with foreign language fluency / cultural proficiency.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

Are you saying that to join any UK police force, your Irish citizenship is not a factor unlike if you had non-UK/Irish citizenship?...

Er, yes I am saying that (I think?).

gurramok wrote:

If its the case, its hardly fair to any EU recruit no mind a Mongolian considering Ireland is a soverign nation like any EU potential member !...

Sovereign we are, but we still have a 'special relationship' with the United Kingdom. We as irish nationals are allowed to vote in Parliamentary elections in the UK, we have the free travel area, we can join the British Army/Royal Navy/Royal Air Force (though some jobs are restricted to british citizens, born in the UK). SO that'll probably really annoy the shinners on this board but like it or not we have a special relationship with the UK and it's because we were part of it in living memory!

gurramok wrote:

Its hardly a case for free movement of people in EU that they are barred for not being Irish/British to join any UK police force.
Its hardly fair in employment rights is it?...think I forecast a case in EU law in the future on that rule!

Nice attempt at diversion but you're still wrong.