How are southernern members of the PSNI perceived?

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

If you had seen the TV pictures and report at the time of the McCartney investigation rioting(UTV), it was stone throwing by kids under the age of 15 mostly. A priest calmed matters down.

Heavily armed riot squad afraid of kids ?

A brick in the head is a brick in the head, regardless of who or what age the person who throws it is.

MrPudding

murphaph wrote:

A brick in the head is a brick in the head, regardless of who or what age the person who throws it is.

Plus, it is more difficult to deal with rioting kids than adults. Kids rioting present a more politically sensitive problem than adults. In addition, kids are much easier to kill accidentally. If I had the choice I would choose rioting adults.

MrP

catholicireland

Because the population demographics have changd in the past 10 years with much inward migration. We have plenty of african doctors, plenty of asian nurses, so why not Gardai?

I dont see any reason why we should have "plenty" of foreign Gardai.

mycroft

gurramok wrote:

How common is rioting?...Do you reckon that its a regular occurrence and is not reported by the media...if so, can media be trusted as they do get their reports of rioting directly from PSNI, surely PSNI don't be misleading the public on the true level of rioting?
If you had seen the TV pictures and report at the time of the McCartney investigation rioting(UTV), it was stone throwing by kids under the age of 15 mostly. A priest calmed matters down.

Heavily armed riot squad afraid of kids ?

Two years ago, during rioting with "kids" a unionist kid was killed by a blast bomb, suggesting that the kind o rioting you get is atypical of the rioting in NI simply isn't true.

Regarding the UVF evictions, there is dispute as to who called who on the matter, it turns out it was isolated incident and lets hope it remains that way.
Your inkling on the matter is that those communties live in fear of paramilitaries and thats why they don't goto PSNI.
I differ in that opinion, a section of working class people of both sides do not trust the PSNI but the majority of the overall population on both sides deal with the PSNI on issues from domestic crime to even traffic offences.
Various surveys have been done by the PSNI themselves showing that there is a minority who don't trust the PSNI, it wouldn't have a bearing on the overall stats on level of crime as this minority is very low in number and resident in select areas.

And the fact that it took several months for witnesses to come forward in the McCartney murder, or even anyone to call the police as he lay dying in the street would beg to differ.

We've had countless threads of republicans justifying statements about telling people "to go to the police or some other authority figure" Only in NI would you get an elected government offical, suggesting the police was one "alternative" to speak to in an investigation, it demostrates the scale of the mindset that there are alternatives to the police.

Speculating that there would be a flood of recruits to PSNI from ROI..yes maybe. But the facts about salary and easiness of the PSNI job is real and tempting to lure them.

Yes, but you've no proof you've a drop in the ocean, and now are envisioning some bizarre situation, an alternative ballykissangel if you will.

Are you saying the PSNI are misleading the public on the reality of crime on the ground with their statistics?
Even the tourist authority claims that NI is a safe place to live and has second lowest crime level in europe.Discover Northern Ireland ...InvestNI.com say crime level in England&Wales is 34% higher than it is in NI. Are the Garda stats wrong?
Surely they can't be lying?

Gosh! The tourist authority! and the investment board you say! Well those are two organisations that don't have any reason to glid the lily to make NI seem more attractive, for, er, some reason........ :rolleyes:

gurramok

mycroft wrote:

Two years ago, during rioting with "kids" a unionist kid was killed by a blast bomb, suggesting that the kind o rioting you get is atypical of the rioting in NI simply isn't true.

Another once-off incident 2 years ago. How many riots are there per year then?..Not many I'd hazard a guess.

mycroft wrote:

And the fact that it took several months for witnesses to come forward in the McCartney murder, or even anyone to call the police as he lay dying in the street would beg to differ.

We've had countless threads of republicans justifying statements about telling people "to go to the police or some other authority figure" Only in NI would you get an elected government offical, suggesting the police was one "alternative" to speak to in an investigation, it demostrates the scale of the mindset that there are alternatives to the police.

Yes, from select areas, it does not tell the overall picture of how the public deal with PSNI.
From post #11, a poster who lived up there stated 'As has been mentioned in other threads it seems that only a small section of the population has a problem with them'

mycroft wrote:

Yes, but you've no proof you've a drop in the ocean, and now are envisioning some bizarre situation, an alternative ballykissangel if you will.

Well, it can happen, the incentive is there and its entirely legal.

mycroft wrote:

Gosh! The tourist authority! and the investment board you say! Well those are two organisations that don't have any reason to glid the lily to make NI seem more attractive, for, er, some reason........ :rolleyes:

[/QUOTE]
they get there stats from the PSNI. I quote official stats yet your opinion is of conjecture and 'your opinion'.
I repeat the question which you have not answered...
Are you saying the PSNI are misleading the public on the reality of crime on the ground with their statistics?

Flex

@Flex: You can call it (Free)Derry if you like but that title is usually reserved by nationalists & republicans for the city as opposed to the county, which is what we're talking about here. In any case, I thought I'd addressed the parity of esteem by writing (London)Derry, with both parts of the name given a capital letter. Surely this is acceptable to unionists and nationalists alike?

Sorry, but i wont accept the loyalist name on a technicality.

LondonDerry= Loyalist/Unionist
FreeDerry= Republican/Nationalist
Derry=Neither,ie.neutral

London(Derry) or Derry/Londonderry is the loyalist name and the neutral name combined.Not very equal.... its as biased as calling it (Free)Derry or Derry/Freederry. A suitable and fair compromise is either Freederry/Londonderry or Derry. I always call it Derry (city and county) because most people living there do so and its non-political.

rsynnott

Flex wrote:

Sorry, but i wont accept the loyalist name on a technicality.

LondonDerry= Loyalist/Unionist
FreeDerry= Republican/Nationalist
Derry=Neither,ie.neutral
.

I'm sure the various maniacs up there don't actually use StudlyCaps; I think you mean Londonderry, Freederry.

Londonderry is still the official name, no?

MrPudding

It is Londonderry in County Londonderry. The SF council managed to change the name of the council to "Derry City Council" but it is still Londonderry.

Personally I tend to call it Derry but adjust this depending on who I am talking to or what the circumstances are.

With regards to the PSNI being easy. The "normal" crime rate is NI is and historically has been low, this is true. That is great but there were other issues. I think the pay has been good historically due to the unique problems that officers had.

These people had to spend years looking under their cars every morning for bombs. They ran very serious risks that they or their families would be targetted my murdering scumbags.

Although, for the most part things are much safer now they are still not the same or as safe as down here.

When things kick off in the North they really kick off. Up there the smallest thing has a chance of just blowing up into a major incident.

In most police forces having a specialisation normally results in a higher salary. All officers in the North are riot and firearms trained. These are 2 separate specialisations in all other UK forces and also down here.

I have a lot of respect for the PSNI, Catholic or Protestant. I am happy that they more money than other police forces given that there are at a greater risk and have more specialisations that officers in other forces.

MrP

mycroft

gurramok wrote:

Another once-off incident 2 years ago. How many riots are there per year then?..Not many I'd hazard a guess.

You'd hazard a guess, splendid, meanwhile earlier this month police faced over threehundred armed men when they confronted loyalists over the feud.

Slugger o toole is reporting an increase in pipebomb attacks in Antrim this august,

But you'd "hazard a guess" that is calmer up there then here.

Yes, from select areas, it does not tell the overall picture of how the public deal with PSNI.
From post #11, a poster who lived up there stated 'As has been mentioned in other threads it seems that only a small section of the population has a problem with them'

And again the volume of unreported crime, the intimidation of witnesses, the unwilliness of elected officals to even attempt to try to endorse the police service paints a far more realistic picture of the situation.

Well, it can happen, the incentive is there and its entirely legal.

Wibble, what a flawless logic, you may suggest that entire UDA collective is going to go gay. Just because something might happen, with barely a scant shred of supporting evidence, is argument aganist allowing Irishpeople to join the PSNI is not too disimilar to the anti immirgration arguments of "where will it end, if it continues like this, we'll be foreigners in our own country in fifty years" argument.

they get there stats from the PSNI. I quote official stats yet your opinion is of conjecture and 'your opinion'.
I repeat the question which you have not answered...
Are you saying the PSNI are misleading the public on the reality of crime on the ground with their statistics?

No I'm saying you're trying to mislead us with your intrepretation of those stastics, using the incredibly weak "crimes per thousand" while downplaying the insidious and significant issue of unreported crimes thanks to paramilitaries, you take the word of "poster 11" to support that claim, now that is conjecture One needs only to look at the table of contents of your PSNI report to see the realities of policing in NI

Figure 7.1 Deaths Due to the Security Situation 1995/96 – 2004/05 44
Table 7.2 Deaths Due to the Security Situation 1995/96 – 2004/05 44
Figure 7.3 Shooting and Bombing Incidents 1995/96 – 2004/05 45
Table 7.4 Security-Related Incidents 1995/96 – 2004/05 45
Figure 7.5 Casualties as a Result of Paramilitary-style Shootings 1995/96 – 2004/05 46
Figure 7.6 Casualties as a Result of Paramilitary-style Assaults 1995/96 – 2004/05 46
Table 7.7 Casualties as a Result of Paramilitary-style Attacks 1995/96 – 2004/05 46
Table 7.8 Firearms, Ammunition and Explosives Finds 1995/96 – 2004/05 47
Table 7.9 Persons Charged with Terrorist and Serious Public Order Offences 1995/96 – 2004/05 47
Table 7.10 Parade Statistics 2004/05 47
Statistical Report - Contents
2

Table on page 12 is most illuminating showing a 30% rise in muder
And 2118 assaults on police officers, a rise of over 8% (your post 70 which includes a link to the garda website is a dead link, but a hunch tells me, that figure will be lower, I'd really like to see the statistics you claim are supported by that link btw)

I'm also moderately certain that the Garda's website listing won't have 25 charges of use of explosives aganist a person.

I'm also certain that the Garda website won't boast about the fall in explosives incidents down 30%, but at the same time I'm fairly certain they're not going to have 29 incidents involving incedenary devises.

Yes your link is most illuminating about the realities of policing North of the border.

murphaph

Gurramok, the PSNI don't drive around in smelly old armoured Land-Rovers for the craic!

gurramok

mycroft wrote:

You'd hazard a guess, splendid, meanwhile earlier this month police faced over threehundred armed men when they confronted loyalists over the feud.

There was no riot in that situation, it was a stand-off.

mycroft wrote:

Slugger o toole is reporting an increase in pipebomb attacks in Antrim this august,

But you'd "hazard a guess" that is calmer up there then here.

Petrol bomb attacks are not riots, they are single incidents in damage to property and assault on the person.
They are crime incidents.

mycroft wrote:

And again the volume of unreported crime, the intimidation of witnesses, the unwilliness of elected officals to even attempt to try to endorse the police service paints a far more realistic picture of the situation.

The unendorsement of the police by elected officials does not automatically mean that crime is rampant!!
Intimidation of witnesses occur in the south as well you know and yes on a high if not equal scale. (the scale is my opinion, look at the amount of unsolved murders in gangland that the gardai are struggling to get witnesses to testify)

mycroft wrote:

Wibble, what a flawless logic, you may suggest that entire UDA collective is going to go gay. Just because something might happen, with barely a scant shred of supporting evidence, is argument aganist allowing Irishpeople to join the PSNI is not too disimilar to the anti immirgration arguments of "where will it end, if it continues like this, we'll be foreigners in our own country in fifty years" argument.

How flawless?..There is no analogy in your gay argument.
PSNI recruitment from the south is happening at a small pace I beleive, the OP asked the question so maybe he is just curious ?
I have racist views now on immigration?..speculation of course

mycroft wrote:

No I'm saying you're trying to mislead us with your intrepretation of those stastics, using the incredibly weak "crimes per thousand" while downplaying the insidious and significant issue of unreported crimes thanks to paramilitaries, you take the word of "poster 11" to support that claim, now that is conjecture One needs only to look at the table of contents of your PSNI report to see the realities of policing in NI

How is the "crimes per thousand" that weak?...Thats the accepted statistic internationally on whether a country has a certain level of crime, crime rate/level to you and me. If you don't accept the stats which are collated on same level across the UK, surely the stats released by the Met etc are useless in your opinion ?
Poster #11 is an example on boards of just one person who is from there, I use the stats to back up my interpretation of the real situation.

mycroft wrote:

Table on page 12 is most illuminating showing a 30% rise in muder
And 2118 assaults on police officers, a rise of over 8% (your post 70 which includes a link to the garda website is a dead link, but a hunch tells me, that figure will be lower, I'd really like to see the statistics you claim are supported by that link btw)

Its lower in both jurisdictions regarding violent crime.
Link is not dead, its a pdf file from the garda website. Here's another one from the same site a few levels back Garda Annual Reports. Click for 2003, 2004 ain't out yet.
Download from the 'Crime Statistics Section' sublink to avoid the waffle and get the hard stats.

mycroft wrote:

I'm also moderately certain that the Garda's website listing won't have 25 charges of use of explosives aganist a person.

I'm also certain that the Garda website won't boast about the fall in explosives incidents down 30%, but at the same time I'm fairly certain they're not going to have 29 incidents involving incedenary devises.

Was there 25 attacks against people using explosives in ROI ?..don't think so.
They are all in the report, part 37...details a range of offences regarding possession of explosives, making of explosives, causing an explosion, firearms, offences against the state etc
I don't see the relevance about it, this section is always going to have lower stats than in NI, its included in the overall picture of total crime in both jursdictions.

mycroft wrote:

Yes your link is most illuminating about the realities of policing North of the border.

Your opinion again.
The stats show it is an easier place to police.

murphaph wrote:

Gurramok, the PSNI don't drive around in smelly old armoured Land-Rovers for the craic!

Old ? yes..There was a thing called 'The troubles' hence those land rovers.
They all don't go around in land rovers, i've seen a good few cops up there travelling in normal police cars and bikes.

Speaking of which, a good few gardai down here do use Ford vans with grills on their windows.
Would it be to protect them from riotous behaviour?....surely not!

mycroft

gurramok wrote:

There was no riot in that situation, it was a stand-off.

Semantic quibbling. Where and when on this Isle have Garda faced an armed mob on that scale?

Petrol bomb attacks are not riots, they are single incidents in damage to property and assault on the person.
They are crime incidents.

And again semantic quibbling, how many petrol bomb attacks occur in the south? Remember we're discussing which force has it "easier" Not whether a petrol bomb assault is a crime or a definition of a riot, if its a common occurance that PSNI officers must deal with, I imagine it wouldn't make their job easier.

The unendorsement of the police by elected officials does not automatically mean that crime is rampant!!

But it's indictivite of a mentally that demostrates how commonplace it is for certain sections of NI to refuse to deal with the police.

How flawless?..There is no analogy in your gay argument.
PSNI recruitment from the south is happening at a small pace I beleive, the OP asked the question so maybe he is just curious ?
I have racist views now on immigration?..speculation of course

Analogies do fly far above you. The argument that if we allow a trickle to flow the floodgates will open, is one used by anti immigration campaigners, who claim that by 2050 we will be in a minority. You claim that if we allow this to continue, all the PSNI will be southerners. It's speicious reasoning.

How is the "crimes per thousand" that weak?...Thats the accepted statistic internationally on whether a country has a certain level of crime, crime rate/level to you and me. If you don't accept the stats which are collated on same level across the UK, surely the stats released by the Met etc are useless in your opinion ?

They're irrelevant when you're arguing that these stastics prove that policing in NI is a less demanding job than policing down south.

However your stastistics ignore types of crime. I submit that it is blatently obvious that the investigation and policing of certain types of crimes are easier, less stressful, and less demanding, ie shoftlifting, and avoiding parking tickets are criminal acts and must be prosecuted, as are murders, shooting and violent assaults, but the work in policing/investigating the later the latter group is far more demanding. So therefore holding up the crimes per captia as proof positive that policing NI is a far easier job isn't an accurate or fair means of establishing this.

Take this stastistic, the number of assaults on police officers in NI is 2118, in 2004, while in southern Ireland in 2003, it was 240. That means (and this is even ignoring the relative size differences in the force) a PSNI officer is over 8 times more likely to be injuried or assaulted in the line of duty.

I don't think we need to argue that being injuried or attacked is demanding stressful and dangerous, so the above is not so much a strong rebuttal, but more of a complete crippling of your suggestion that policing in NI is less demanding than policing in southern Ireland.

Was there 25 attacks against people using explosives in ROI ?..don't think so.
They are all in the report, part 37...details a range of offences regarding possession of explosives, making of explosives, causing an explosion, firearms, offences against the state etc
I don't see the relevance about it, this section is always going to have lower stats than in NI, its included in the overall picture of total crime in both jursdictions.

Your opinion again.
The stats show it is an easier place to police.

And again, the statistics on an incredibly primitive model would show that its an easier place to police, but as you yourself admit,

details a range of offences regarding possession of explosives, making of explosives, causing an explosion, firearms, offences against the state etc
I don't see the relevance about it, this section is always going to have lower stats than in NI, its

A list of demanding and dangerous offences, that are automatically going to make a policeman's job harder.

You're admiting that there will always (nice positive attitude) more violent crime in NI, the exact crimes that is always going to make policing a more dangerous demanding, and "less easy job"

gurramok

mycroft wrote:

Semantic quibbling. Where and when on this Isle have Garda faced an armed mob on that scale?

Dunsink Lane, Dublin late last year. The Garda Public Order Unit were there for a couple of days while a couple hundred thugs rained all sorts of dangerous objects at them including petrol bombs. (i was there watching behind Garda lines, it was a frightening experience)
This event is a once-off similar to other riots in NI.

mycroft wrote:

And again semantic quibbling, how many petrol bomb attacks occur in the south? Remember we're discussing which force has it "easier" Not whether a petrol bomb assault is a crime or a definition of a riot, if its a common occurance that PSNI officers must deal with, I imagine it wouldn't make their job easier.
But it's indictivite of a mentally that demostrates how commonplace it is for certain sections of NI to refuse to deal with the police.

I point out that petrol bomb attacks happen to civilians, not just police. Thet are part of the overall crime picture.
As i pointed out earlier, distrust of police does not breed crime.
If we were discussing the situation from maybe 10 years ago where there were no ceasefires, yes NI was a harder place to police but its moved on alot since then to a normaised society with lower crime.

mycroft wrote:

Analogies do fly far above you. The argument that if we allow a trickle to flow the floodgates will open, is one used by anti immigration campaigners, who claim that by 2050 we will be in a minority. You claim that if we allow this to continue, all the PSNI will be southerners. It's speicious reasoning.

It can happen still, we ain't a million miles from NI unlike overseas immigrants. We share similar culture and language, hardly difficult for a prospective immigrant from ROI to NI to join any branch of the services there where there is huge incentive

mycroft wrote:

However your stastistics ignore types of crime. I submit that it is blatently obvious that the investigation and policing of certain types of crimes are easier, less stressful, and less demanding, ie shoftlifting, and avoiding parking tickets are criminal acts and must be prosecuted, as are murders, shooting and violent assaults, but the work in policing/investigating the later the latter group is far more demanding. So therefore holding up the crimes per captia as proof positive that policing NI is a far easier job isn't an accurate or fair means of establishing this.

The Garda down here when investigating the latter have to deal with the same attributes of violent crime as found in NI except the bitter hatred in a few small select areas. Gardai do struggle with lack of co-operation from witnesses in many murders in last 10 years(at least 60 murders unsolved if i remember correctly), similar situation up in NI hence same stress level on each police officer.

mycroft wrote:

Take this stastistic, the number of assaults on police officers in NI is 2118, in 2004, while in southern Ireland in 2003, it was 240. That means (and this is even ignoring the relative size differences in the force) a PSNI officer is over 8 times more likely to be injuried or assaulted in the line of duty.

I don't think we need to argue that being injuried or attacked is demanding stressful and dangerous, so the above is not so much a strong rebuttal, but more of a complete crippling of your suggestion that policing in NI is less demanding than policing in southern Ireland.

Yes, a police officer is more likely to get assaulted in NI, hence the reasoning for better protection than an unarmed Garda.
These assaults are still part of the overall crime stats which give a picture of low crime level.

mycroft wrote:

And again, the statistics on an incredibly primitive model would show that its an easier place to police, but as you yourself admit,

A list of demanding and dangerous offences, that are automatically going to make a policeman's job harder.

You're admiting that there will always (nice positive attitude) more violent crime in NI, the exact crimes that is always going to make policing a more dangerous demanding, and "less easy job"

I'm stating the obvious, there is a volatile political situation there. There is a largely peaceful situation now. If the ceasefires break down and attacks resume, crime would go up and would probably surpass ROI level. But we are talking about now and not if and when in the past/future.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the crime level as i have pointed out that I get my info from the stats released by both police forces and clearly you don't believe them as a true reflection on the crime rate.

mycroft

gurramok wrote:

Dunsink Lane, Dublin late last year. The Garda Public Order Unit were there for a couple of days while a couple hundred thugs rained all sorts of dangerous objects at them including petrol bombs. (i was there watching behind Garda lines, it was a frightening experience)
This event is a once-off similar to other riots in NI.

There was incredibly limited violence as compared to can and has occured in NI.

I point out that petrol bomb attacks happen to civilians, not just police. Thet are part of the overall crime picture.

Exactly not limited to police, you're suggesting that policing southern ireland is a harder job, than policing an environment when dealing with improvised explosive and incendary devices is common occurance.

As i pointed out earlier, distrust of police does not breed crime.

The point you've lost in all this quibbling, is distrust in the police, indicitative of a society where crime is not reported so therefore your statistics display a warped version of events.

If we were discussing the situation from maybe 10 years ago where there were no ceasefires, yes NI was a harder place to police but its moved on alot since then to a normaised society with lower crime.

And again the high degree of police injury and incidents of assault on police would suggest otherwise.

It can happen still, we ain't a million miles from NI unlike overseas immigrants. We share similar culture and language, hardly difficult for a prospective immigrant from ROI to NI to join any branch of the services there where there is huge incentive

You're still in the land of "ifs" and "maybes".

The Garda down here when investigating the latter have to deal with the same attributes of violent crime as found in NI except the bitter hatred in a few small select areas. Gardai do struggle with lack of co-operation from witnesses in many murders in last 10 years(at least 60 murders unsolved if i remember correctly), similar situation up in NI hence same stress level on each police officer.

Ah for the last few pages you've been saying it's "easier" now it's similar. While I don't dispute theres been a balancing, I think the statistics re the amount of violent crime, assault on police officers, firearms and explosive offences, being far more common in the north, mean that the stress and demands on PSNI officers are far greater, and not as you claim an "easier" job.

Yes, a police officer is more likely to get assaulted in NI, hence the reasoning for better protection than an unarmed Garda.
These assaults are still part of the overall crime stats which give a picture of low crime level.

And again, quibbling. You'll that despite the better protection that they have for decades they're still being assaulted and attacked in far greater numbers than the Gardai, suggesting one hand that they no longer need armoured range rovers, and then on the other hand suggesting measures such as that makes their job easier is a complete paradox. Body armour is no shield for the emotional trauma and stress of being attacked.

I'm stating the obvious, there is a volatile political situation there. There is a largely peaceful situation now. If the ceasefires break down and attacks resume, crime would go up and would probably surpass ROI level. But we are talking about now and not if and when in the past/future.

Again this blows my mind, you admit the level of violence is greater, the situation is volatile, they have the need for better protection, but then hold the flimiest of primititive statistics which "proves" they're on easy street compared to the garda down here.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the crime level as i have pointed out that I get my info from the stats released by both police forces and clearly you don't believe them as a true reflection on the crime rate.

And as I pointed out, the incredibly simplisitic stastistic and overly simplistic conclusion you've drawn from it, cannot be used to draw an accurate picture of the stress and strain each police service is under.

gurramok

mycroft wrote:

There was incredibly limited violence as compared to can and has occured in NI.

Still a riot is a riot and causes incredible destruction and fear.
NI does have probably more riots than ROI, these are once-offs around the twelfth, a higher degree than the south but they are part of the overall crime picture which says that crime is lower in NI than ROI.

mycroft wrote:

Exactly not limited to police, you're suggesting that policing southern ireland is a harder job, than policing an environment when dealing with improvised explosive and incendary devices is common occurance.
The point you've lost in all this quibbling, is distrust in the police, indicitative of a society where crime is not reported so therefore your statistics display a warped version of events.
And again the high degree of police injury and incidents of assault on police would suggest otherwise.
You're still in the land of "ifs" and "maybes".

To sum up on these, there is distrust in police as well in the south and unreported crime due to fear.
I quote the PSNI stats, you are therefore saying the PSNI release warped stats.

mycroft wrote:

Ah for the last few pages you've been saying it's "easier" now it's similar. While I don't dispute theres been a balancing, I think the statistics re the amount of violent crime, assault on police officers, firearms and explosive offences, being far more common in the north, mean that the stress and demands on PSNI officers are far greater, and not as you claim an "easier" job.

Its the army who defuse explosive devices, the police don't have a monopoly on attacks on their members, everyone , civilian and police suffer in those violence stats.
I've been saying various aspects of crime can be lower/same/higher for different degrees of crime, the overall picture of crime according to PSNI stats is that it is lower in NI.

mycroft wrote:

And again, quibbling. You'll that despite the better protection that they have for decades they're still being assaulted and attacked in far greater numbers than the Gardai, suggesting one hand that they no longer need armoured range rovers, and then on the other hand suggesting measures such as that makes their job easier is a complete paradox. Body armour is no shield for the emotional trauma and stress of being attacked.

Again this blows my mind, you admit the level of violence is greater, the situation is volatile, they have the need for better protection, but then hold the flimiest of primititive statistics which "proves" they're on easy street compared to the garda down here.

Your missing one word here..Potential.
NI has a potential to have greater infliction of violence than ROI hence the body armour for some PSNI officers, but now NI does not experience the greater total crime level according to PSNI stats.
Alot of officers do not go around in Land Rovers and covered from head to toe in body armour, this can be seen on a visit to NI anytime.
The sooner the shackles of body armour afflicting the minority of officers are gone the better.

mycroft wrote:

And as I pointed out, the incredibly simplisitic stastistic and overly simplistic conclusion you've drawn from it, cannot be used to draw an accurate picture of the stress and strain each police service is under.

Both police forces have stress and strain, as there is a lower level of crime in NI, the stress and strain must be lower per head of officer.

mycroft

gurramok wrote:

Still a riot is a riot and causes incredible destruction and fear.
NI does have probably more riots than ROI, these are once-offs around the twelfth, a higher degree than the south but they are part of the overall crime picture which says that crime is lower in NI than ROI.

The level of double think here is just fantastic, you refer to a riot causing incredible destruction and fear, and then claim that Nth Irish police are under less stress, despite the fact they pretty much have

A) have a month of rioting every year, aside from casual and sporadic riots that pop up from time to time.

more than 8 times the level of injuries and assaults recorded than officers down south.

By your own logic and admission a police officer in NI is more than 8 times more likely to be put in a suitation of "fear and destruction" but yet you still claim, they've got it easier than their colleagues down south.

To sum up on these, there is distrust in police as well in the south and unreported crime due to fear.
I quote the PSNI stats, you are therefore saying the PSNI release warped stats.

And once again, you've taken the two stats and come to a warped conclusion. I don't disagree with the statistics, I just disagree with your incredible primitive assertions of what these statistics prove. By your own admission a police officer in NI is more likely to encounter violence fear and destruction, yet, you claim these statistics which don't break down the type of crime, prove they have it easier up north.

Its the army who defuse explosive devices, the police don't have a monopoly on attacks on their members, everyone , civilian and police suffer in those violence stats.

Again over simplifiing the situation a police officer in NI is more than likely to encounter the stress and danger of explosives than his counterpart down south.

I've been saying various aspects of crime can be lower/same/higher for different degrees of crime, the overall picture of crime according to PSNI stats is that it is lower in NI.

yes but you're blithely ignoring that certain types of crime are more dangerous, and stressful for Police, so using a blanket statisitic on crime rates isn't going to give an accurate assesment over which force has a more demanding job.

Your missing one word here..Potential.
NI has a potential to have greater infliction of violence than ROI hence the body armour for some PSNI officers, but now NI does not experience the greater total crime level according to PSNI stats.

And again you're glibly ignoring the fact that police officers in NI come face to face with violence (not potential violence actual violence) 8 times more often then their colleagues down south. If you continue to ignore this fact, I'm going to use your own model, and break down, the number of assaults among the garda, and the number of assaults on members of the PSNI, based on their force size, and you'll find a PSNI officer is more than 10-12 times more likely to be assaulted or injuried in the line of duty than a Gardai.

Are you really going to quibble with arguments that claim the PSNI have it easier then?

Alot of officers do not go around in Land Rovers and covered from head to toe in body armour, this can be seen on a visit to NI anytime.
The sooner the shackles of body armour afflicting the minority of officers are gone the better.

The shackles of body armour. Classic. With assault rates aganist officers so high you think they want to get rid of the armour?

Both police forces have stress and strain, as there is a lower level of crime in NI, the stress and strain must be lower per head of officer.

And the level of assault and injury among PSNI officers, more than changes that. Seriously, you're living in some dreamland that because they're wearing bulletproof vests, and have less parking tickets to chase, they're living the life of reilly as it were.

murphaph

Given the latest rounds of violence against PSNI officers (including multiple attempts at murder with bombs and bullets), do those who believe policing is easier in NI still hold onto those views?

Cork

murphaph wrote:

Given the latest rounds of violence against PSNI officers (including multiple attempts at murder with bombs and bullets), do those who believe policing is easier in NI still hold onto those views?

When you have "political leaders" like Paisley & Adams - politics is like pulling teeth.

When you have a society like NI - policing is going to be difficult.

The Official Unionists & SDLP had a middle ground but people decided to vote for partys like the DUP & SF.

How are southernern members of the PSNI perceived?

I have no problem with them. Many in NI are employed in the public sector. Many nationalists and unionists.