Dublin V Tyrone ... Live

Waylander

Kaimera, Mighty Mouse and Culchie are all neuturals providing unbiased opinions Lemlin. They managed to give Dublin some credit for the part they played in a fantastic match. Whelo fell out of the game in the second half, none has argued that, but it took Tyrone a long time and a half time rejig to get this right. Pillar Caffrey did not have the luxury of a half time break to sort these issues out.

Yet again I will ask you how come it is acceptable for a fan from any other county to be optimistic, and talk their team up, but it is not acceptable for a Dublin fan, in fact if a Dublin fan talks there team up, it can pretty much be guarunteed you will take exception to the comment.

You have been saying that Dublin will be found out every match since Meath now. It must really bother you to see they are still in. Hopefully we can take Tyrone in the replay, I think it will be another close match, very hard to call.

Lemlin

You have been saying that Dublin will be found out every match since Meath now. It must really bother you to see they are still in. Hopefully we can take Tyrone in the replay, I think it will be another close match, very hard to call.

If you read my past comments, I have never played Dublin down in their previous matches. I have always said that their matches would be tight (as they were) but I have always said they had every chance of winning. If you notice, I also said that the Tyrone game would be tight but scrappy.

Yet again I will ask you how come it is acceptable for a fan from any other county to be optimistic, and talk their team up, but it is not acceptable for a Dublin fan, in fact if a Dublin fan talks there team up, it can pretty much be guarunteed you will take exception to the comment.

When have I ever gave out to a supporter for being optimistic? Yep, I jumped down the throat of an individual who chose two players from the county who he was obviously choosing from a biased opinion on another thread.

Kaimera, Mighty Mouse and Culchie are all neuturals providing unbiased opinions Lemlin. They managed to give Dublin some credit for the part they played in a fantastic match. Whelo fell out of the game in the second half, none has argued that, but it took Tyrone a long time and a half time rejig to get this right. Pillar Caffrey did not have the luxury of a half time break to sort these issues out.

When have I not given Dublin credit? I said it was a fantastic game and Whelan played brilliantly in the first half but was useless in the second. Then people take exception to me saying this, even though its true.

If you look at the previous posts, I was called a twat and plonker before I'd even got to make another point. Merely for pointing out that Whelan and Dublin were poor in the second half.

Triton

As an outsider coming into this argument, I'd have to agree with...... both sides. First off, Lemlin is wrong for being stubborn, he should just ignore the crap like Kaimera suggested. Point taken there. And perhaps Lemlin didnt give Dublin praise but why does he have to? Im from Meath and I know I certainly wouldnt. And even if he is a Dublin hater? Would it not even out all the Dublin bias on this forum. Fact is on another thread when he expressed an opinion as stupid - an opinion that nobody else agreed with - he was pulled for calling it stupid. Yet he is being called stupid himself here and nothing is said. As much as all you Dublin supporters may love reading the crap printed in Lala land (where Dublin are the best thing since sliced bread), fact is that Whelan was just ready to prove me wrong last weekend - IMO he always plays well against average teams but can't handle the big teams - when he went and undid all his work by having an anonymous second half. Get over it lads, people are entitled to their opinions, even if they don't fit in with the 'Dublin-view' of things. I laughed on another thread when Waylander described Cavan as being a dirty team for one tackle that he'd seen - brandishing a whole panel and county of players dirty for one player's foolishness - yet the Cavan supporters just took it with a pinch of salt and said nothing. Can you imagine the uproar there'd be though if one of them came on here and posted that Dublin were a dirty team because Stpehen Cluxton had punched Stephen McDonnell however many years ago it was?

kaimera

opinion opinions opinions.

remember kids, the internet it a magical pixie place.

Culchie

Yes, but the thing is, I don't see any strong Dublin bias on this forum.

It's rational debate with a bit of banter for the most part.


Besides, what does it matter, they are all opinions.

I've more respect for the guys who know their stuff and being objective, than the fellahs spouting trollop about their own county....which just whiffs of immaturity.

The Rooster

Lemlin wrote:

When have I not given Dublin credit? I said it was a fantastic game and Whelan played brilliantly in the first half but was useless in the second. Then people take exception to me saying this, even though its true.

If you look at the previous posts, I was called a twat and plonker before I'd even got to make another point. Merely for pointing out that Whelan and Dublin were poor in the second half.

The thing I took exception to was saying that Whelan, an attacking midfielder, was "nowhere to be seen when Sean Cavanagh (playing half forward) was running through the Dublin backline repeatedly in the second half". There are plenty of things you could have said about Whelan's second half performances that might have been merited, but that certainly wasnt one of them!

Culchie

The Rooster wrote:

The thing I took exception to was saying that Whelan, an attacking midfielder, was "nowhere to be seen when Sean Cavanagh (playing half forward) was running through the Dublin backline repeatedly in the second half". There are plenty of things you could have said about Whelan's second half performances that might have been merited, but that certainly wasnt one of them!

In fairness, I don't think Whelan was prominent at all in the second half, and Cavanagh did indeed break forward on several occassions, so I don't see a problem with Lemlins post on this occassion.

Whelan, like Seamus O'Neill of Roscommon, tends to brilliant in the first half and dramatically fades in the second half, in O'Neills case it is lack of fitness, in Whelans case.... I don't know, probably fitness as well. He also took a knock towards the end of the game.

The Rooster

I didnt say he was prominent in the second half. He was completely crowded out by McGinley and McMahon, and after the knock he took about 15 minutes into the second half he never got a kick after that. But it most certainly was not his job to track Sean Cavanaugh, who was playing in the half foward line in the second half. He'd more than enough on his plate already with McGinley and McMahon.

Waylander

Triton I did not make that decision on the basis of one foul, that was merely the straw that broke the camels back. It was premeditated and deliberate, and although Lemlin disagrees with me was as bad as Mc Menamins.


Regarding Whelan, he was double marked for pretty much the entire second half, so although he was not winning the ball, he was still doing his bit by freeing up another player. To be honest I think that Dublins problem is that they only have one ball winner in midfield. I think Shane Ryan is a useful player, but his shooting is bad, and his fielding could be alot better. He does win alot of breaking ball, but I do feel we need another man who can climb in the air to win the ball. I would prefer to see Homan partner Whelan as a midfielder with Ryan playing as a third midfielder to pick up the breaking balls.

I have been realistic about Dublins chances all season. From prechampionship I said I thought they would win Leinster but probably would not go much further. They have now won Leinster, and I think they are capable of beating Tyrone, if they do I would fancy them against Laois, but not really against Armagh.

Lemlin

But it most certainly was not his job to track Sean Cavanaugh, who was playing in the half foward line in the second half. He'd more than enough on his plate already with McGinley and McMahon.

So its not the job of a midfielder to bridge the gap between the half forwards and half backs like I said? Whelan has absolutely no responsibility for helping his backline out when they are being hit with attack after attack? So, what is his job when the opposition are attacking? To stand there and look pretty, maybe fix his hair a bit.

And Waylander, you clearly said on another thread that you had made the assumption that Cavan were a dirty team because of Brady's tackle. You never mentioned anything about it being the last straw. Your exact words were somthing along the lines of deciding that Cavan were a dirty team because of that exact tackle.

As mentioned above, what would be the response if another county member was to come on and say the same of Dublin on this board?

It's my choice whether I praise Dublin or not. I don't take kindly to being called a twat merely because I won't repeat the crap that The Herald and Sun print. I'd prefer to read an objective article from someone like Pat Spillane or Martin McHugh (the one analyist I read at the weekend who seemed to even notice that Tyrone were playing).

The Rooster

Lemlin wrote:

I don't take kindly to being called a twat merely because I won't repeat the crap that The Herald and Sun print.

Never read those, maybe you shouldnt either if they upset you so much. As for being called a twat, then maybe you should try a bit harder with some of your comments, e.g.

Lemlin wrote:

So its not the job of a midfielder to bridge the gap between the half forwards and half backs ?

No-one said thats not in the job description, but you've been castigating him for not bridging the gap between the half back and full back lines, i.e. by not covering the runs forward made in the second half by half-forward Sean Cavanaugh. The fact that you still havent copped on that that was a stupid thing to say is very funny. I've only explained it to you three times so far.

The Rooster

Waylander wrote:

Regarding Whelan, he was double marked for pretty much the entire second half, so although he was not winning the ball, he was still doing his bit by freeing up another player. To be honest I think that Dublins problem is that they only have one ball winner in midfield. I think Shane Ryan is a useful player, but his shooting is bad, and his fielding could be alot better. He does win alot of breaking ball, but I do feel we need another man who can climb in the air to win the ball. I would prefer to see Homan partner Whelan as a midfielder with Ryan playing as a third midfielder to pick up the breaking balls.

I have been realistic about Dublins chances all season. From prechampionship I said I thought they would win Leinster but probably would not go much further. They have now won Leinster, and I think they are capable of beating Tyrone, if they do I would fancy them against Laois, but not really against Armagh.

Its highly likely that Tyrone will pick McMahon and McGinley at midfield next time, with Gormley in defence and Cavanaugh in attack. That means Dublin have to pick another fielder to give Whelan a hand, namely one of the Darrens. I too would pick Homan to start, and when he runs out of steam, bring on Magee. That way Tyrone couldnt afford to put their two best catchers on Whelan.

If Tyrone win the replay I'd fancy them to reach the final, if Dublin win I'd say it'd be 50/50 against either Armagh or Laois. But maybe that opinion will change after seeing this week's semi.

Lemlin

No-one said thats not in the job description, but you've been castigating him for not bridging the gap between the half back and full back lines, i.e. by not covering the runs forward made in the second half by half-forward Sean Cavanaugh. The fact that you still havent copped on that that was a stupid thing to say is very funny. I've only explained it to you three times so far.

Yes, Whelan should have been back helping the backline to win the ball. Its not his job to stop Cavanagh's runs, but it is his job to get back there and tussle with Cavanagh and try to win the ball. Brian Mullins, a Dublin legend, has often said that Whelan's big fault is that he's unwilling to track back and try to win balls that he has lost, or that he should be helping his backs out with. If Mullins can see that, why can't you? Are you willing to call him a twat for expressing the same opinion as me?

The bottom line is that you're unwilling to admit that Whelan was poor in the second half. As pointed out above, I've no problem with saying when my county play badly, as do many other people on this board, but why can't Dublin people admit this, rather than reading into all the hype?

Whelan will always be an average footballer at best until he can put in a 70 minute display against a top side. 35 minutes of brilliance, followed by 35 minutes of mediocrity, isn't good enough. But perhaps that's all Dublin supporters expect of their 'top' players.

Waylander

Lemlin you still have not said anything about the fact that he was double marked for the second half, you are just choosing to ignore this very relevant information. As regards Cavan, I do not think I said I made the assumption but maybe I am wrong there. I watched that entire match, and that tackle was just the conclusive final evidence that I needed. In that match they were dirty, but maybe Tyrone brought that on themselves, as a later game Cavan were involved in was not so dirty.

The Rooster

Lemlin wrote:

Its not his job to stop Cavanagh's runs

Yippee-aye-a, you've finally back-tracked on your ridiculous opening argument. Well done on the climb down. End.


I see Colin Holmes is back with the Tyrone panel after injury and will be available for the replay. Unlikely to be a starter but could well be used as a sub. He could be a big help to Tyrone's midfield if they need it late on.

Lemlin

I never said it was HIS job to stop Cavanagh single handedly, did I? That's a conclusion you jumped to. I said he was nowhere to be seen when Cavanagh was running through the backline. I never, in the first place, said he had to stop Cavanagh. I've always maintained it was his job to get back there and help his backline stop Cavanagh, which he failed to do. The bottom line is that he was anonymous, whether its now claimed he picked up an injury or not.

Its interesting the way you ignored the rest of my post, particularly regarding what Brian Mullins had said. IMO you have climbed down, not me. You still ignore the fact that you're unwilling to look at a Dublin performance objectively and without bias.

Waylander, if he was double marked, and I'm not sure if he was, then what the hell was Shane Ryan up to if he was the free man??

Waylander

Well Lemlin I was at the match and he was double marked. I also addressed the Shane Ryan issue in my post. As I said he is not enough of a ball winner to play in midfield.

The Rooster

Lemlin, you obviously havent read my posts if you think I cant judge Dublin's performance properly.

But as you've climbed down on it being Whelan's job to stop Cavanaugh in the second half - which of course was pure nonsense on your part, especially given that Dublin also have 6 defenders and one defensive midfielder, not to mention Whelo had to deal with McMahon and McGinley, so you couldnt do anything but climbdown - I'm delighted.

But what's this crap about "whether its now claimed he picked up an injury or not"?? You said you watched the game??? Maybe you're just pretending to be a troll, or a twat.

Lemlin

But as you've climbed down on it being Whelan's job to stop Cavanaugh in the second half - which of course was pure nonsense on your part, especially given that Dublin also have 6 defenders and one defensive midfielder, not to mention Whelo had to deal with McMahon and McGinley, so you couldnt do anything but climbdown - I'm delighted.

What I laugh at is that you entirely ignored the main part of my reply - that Brian Mullins, a man wanted by many as Dublin manager a year ago before Paul Caffrey was appointed, agrees totally with my point. As Mullins pointed out, Whelan is a fine footballer but he's not willing to get in and graft. This was shown last Saturday.

Mullins picked out one moment from the Westmeath match last year which he said summed up Whelan perfectly - Whelan had just won the ball and was running through midfield out of the backline. Then lost the ball. Did he try to win it back? Did he tussle with the Westmeath player? No, he stood there, watched Westmeath run down the pitch and score. As Mullins put it in The Sunday World, he didn't even walk, he strolled as if nothing had happened.

Whelan was fine when things were going well for him in the first half on Saturday and the Tyrone midfield and forwards weren't functioning to their full potential. In the second half though, he wasn't willing to go back and tussle and try to win the ball off players like Cavanagh.

As for having six backs and one defensive midfielder, they obviously couldn't get the ball to Whelan so should he not be in there trying to win it himself? Did you see him back in the backline trying to win possession? I know I wasn't at the match but I didn't. Therefore, what was he doing? Standing up the pitch twiddling his thumbs waiting for a stray pass?

That's the point Mullins had and the point which I'm trying to emphasise but you can't get into your head. I haven't climbed down on anything. I still stick by my original post, Whelan was nowhere to be seen when Cavanagh was rampaging through the Dublin backline. It may not be his primary responsibility to stop him but he should be back there making an effort to support his backs.

As for the injury comment, I'm referring to numerous papers that have said Whelan faded from the game because he picked up an injury. First off, he didn't pick up an injury. He got a knock in the head. And I do realise this could have affected his performance greatly but my second point is that: he had faded from the game long before that.

Waylander

Beacuase he was being double marked. It is not easy getting through toyou Lemlin. Also as he was double marked tracking back to cover Cavanagh would only have been bringing an extra attacker to the Tyrone half forwards. It was someone elses job to mark Cavanagh once he moved from midfield!

The Rooster

First off, he didn't pick up an injury. He got a knock in the head.

Lemlin, you're cracking me up here

As I've said before on this thread (despite you wrongly accusing me of all sort of blinkered bias):

there are plenty of things you could have said about Whelan's second half performance that might have been merited, but that [the nonsense about Cavanaugh] certainly wasnt one of them!

What you said about Cavanaugh and what Mullins said were completely different. What Mullins said could be spot-on, but totally irrelevant to this argument - unless you can show me where he states Whelan has the awful weakness of not tracking half forwards as they make their way to the Dublin full back line!? And it shows what kinda guy you are by retracting your climb-down on the Cavanaugh runs. Even the most blinkered Dublin hater could see that it was a silly thing to say. Well, everyone except you Lemlin.

I just hope Whelan can re-discover his form of the first half next time, and maybe if we give him a proper fielding partner he'll be able to extend his period of dominance. According to the Irish Times today Whelan caught 9 clean high balls in the first half last Saturday. Extraordinary. They didnt give the exact stats for the second half other than it was "even". Though clearly Tyrone picked up more of the breaking balls.

Triton

I find it funny Rooster that you belittle Lemlin's argument but have not answered any of his queries. Fact is that you still seem unwilling to admit Whelan was atrocious in the second half. That is why he'll always be a good footballer, never a great. You make the point that its not his job to track a half forward. Perhaps Lemlin didnt get his point across by mentioning Cavanagh but he's quite right to say that Whelan should track back. For example, in the Meath vs. Leitrim match, I saw two Meath half-forwards on two separate occasions catch the ball in their own square. If a half forward can get back and defend when the team need them to, surely a midfielder can. That was Mullins point, the point Lemlin is making and the point you are failing to address. As for Waylander, it seems that if someone said a spade was a spade, and they weren't a Dublin supporter, you'd call it a pitchfork!

Waylander

Triton wrote:

As for Waylander, it seems that if someone said a spade was a spade, and they weren't a Dublin supporter, you'd call it a pitchfork!

What is that meant to mean? Do you not think it relevant that the player in question was double marked, and if he had tracked back he would have been bringing another EXTRA attacker with him? I have no problem with fair crticism from reasonable people, but over the last few months Lemlin has more then demonstrated that he is not a reasonable person where Dublin are concerned. So yes, I stand in the corner of my team, its what supporters do. Still noone has answered my point that Whelo was double marked, and this may explain why he was not as prominent in the second half. I do agree that he can be lazy when he loses the ball, or when Dublin do not have the ball, I never really had a problem with that, but I am also trying to show why he was not so prominent in the second half of this particular game.

Lemlin

It was someone elses job to mark Cavanagh once he moved from midfield!

Again, I'll point out: Where did I say it was his job to stop Cavanagh? I said it was his job to help his backline his Cavanagh, which he didn't do. And, on that point, he didn't help them stop any of the other Tyrone forwards like Brian McGuigan either.

I agree with you that 9 ball wins is extraordinary but my point was that Whelan didn't carry this into the second half.

If he was being double marked, then it was Pillar's job to mix up the tactics and shock Tyrone, like his opposite number did. Tyrone were clearly winning the breaking ball at midfield so why didn't some of the Dublin backline try and come short for a quick kickout?

Dublin have a good team but they don't have the tactical know-how to gain an advantage over teams like Tyrone. Martin McHugh pointed this out earlier this year when he compared the Ulster and Leinster finals.

The Leinster final was about two teams of 15 trying their best against each other. The Ulster final, on the other hand, was littlered with tactics (and fights many of you may argue!) in both games.

Waylander

You may be right there, but I will point out that Mickey Harte was unable to do anything about Dublins midfield dominance till he got his team into the changing room at half time. Then he made wholesale changes to the team which worked out for the better. Caffrey obviously did not anticipate all of these changes, but surely must have anticipated some of them. He did not however have the luxury of a changing room discussion to rectify things when things were going wrong. He brought Na Fianna to All Ireland club finals, so I would not be writing him off so quickly.

I do think Tyrones ability to put teams away is an issue. They could not put Armagh away, and they could not put Dublin away. In the Cavan replay and the Monaghon match they were way ahead when it mattered, but if this game is still tight late on I fancy Dublin to take them. Especially if Tyrone keep mouthing off at teh Ref or obstructing frees and get the free moved closer. This happened twice on Saturday, and both occassions they turned tough free kicks, one due to angle and one due to distance, into fairly easy free kicks. I felt this was criminal as Mossy had missed acouple from out by the 45, and this one was moved into the edge of the D because they would not get out of his way.

The Rooster

Triton, twice I have said there were many things to criticise about Whelan's second half performance. Tracking Cavanaugh wasnt one of them. If it was McGinley or McMahon making good runs, then yes. But when a forward has a ball, generally its a midfielder's job to stick by his man and ensure he doesnt receive an uncontested ball.

Cavanugh scored 1 point in the second half - he got 2 in the first. On both occassions Whelan didnt track him. I couldnt complain if he was criticised for that. Albeit his excuse would have been that winning all the high balls was taking a lot out of him, especially as he often went on a run forward with the ball (and likewise Cavanaugh was doing nothing to stop him). So the sacrifice was not tracking every run by Cavanaugh.

Caffrey is certainly slower than Harte at changing things around. Its his first year as intercounty manager, he's still a bit to learn, and I wont say its not a worry. They did vary the kickouts in the last 10 minutes or so - isolating Cullen on Dublin's right-hand side and aiming the kickouts to him. He's probably our second best fielder so it meant he saw a fair bit of possession in the last 10 minutes or so when we dragged ourselves back into the game.

Triton

At last we have got an intelligent reply from you, Rooster. And it only took what, about 30 responses for you to finally address Lemlin's point rather than attempting to belittle him and a valid opinion he had. Waylander, you've proved consistently that you'll stick up for Dublin no matter what the criticism. You lost any respect I, and I'd imagine many individuals on this board, had for you when you argued with Lemlin that Sherlock and Cluxton should be on the team of the Championship, despite the fact that no-one else agreed with you or the original poster that suggested this. You've also consistently tried to goad supporters of Meath and Cavan, labelling Cavan dirty and repeatedly saying that Meath are a weak team. Every Meath supporter knows Meath are weak now, we don't need to hear it (who's won more All-Irelands in the last ten years though mate? Meath or Dublin??). Supporters like me don't adopt the same attitude as you and argue with other supporters who give constructive criticism about our county. Learn to accept that Dublin aren't the be-all and end-all. I'm sure everyone is getting sick of this ring-a-rosy topic like I am so let's just let Whelan show us who is right and who's wrong in the replay? But if he plays more than 35 minutes of decent football, I'll buy a Dublin jersey and wear it round Kells!!

Waylander

Triton, firstly I could not care less whether I have your respect or not, you can rest assured on that point. Secondly I did not maintain Cluxton and Sherlock should have been included int he team, in fact I repeatedly said that in my opinionn they should not be, I was arguing that Lemlin was wrong to call another poster stupid etc just because of a difference of opinion. I think even Lemlin will back me up on that.

Thirdly, Meath are a weak team, as are Kildare. I have not just thrown these out to upset people, I have only mentioned these points when they have been relevant to the current discussion. I have not "repeatedly" called Cavan a dirty team, I did it in one thread and it has been brought up by other people, yourself included, in other threads.

Thirdly, I have never found much constructive about Lemlins criticisms of Dublin, and obviously I am not the only Dub here of that opinion. If somebody has no objectivity on a particular subject, then it is hard to consider their criticism to be constructive. I would have no problem with the vast majority of posters on this forum criticising Dublin or their players, but there are a few that I will argue with every time because the3y talk alot of sh1t on this particular subject.

Finally, still Lemlin has not commented on the relevant fact that Whelo was double marked for the second half of the match in question. Maybe that is because concedeing that point would make him, and you, look like people who do not really know what they are talking about!

Lemlin

I have not "repeatedly" called Cavan a dirty team, I did it in one thread and it has been brought up by other people, yourself included, in other threads.

I can think of at least three topics where you called Cavan dirty, without anyone else mentioning the conduct of the team. If you would like me to outline these, I can. That said, Cavan has nothing to do with this topic so lets leave Cavan being dirty at the door.

If he was being double marked, then it was Pillar's job to mix up the tactics and shock Tyrone, like his opposite number did. Tyrone were clearly winning the breaking ball at midfield so why didn't some of the Dublin backline try and come short for a quick kickout?

Did I not just address Whelan being double marked there? Like I've said, I wasn't at the game and couldn't see from the TV coverage if he was. But, as pointed out above, it was Pillar's job to change the tactics which he didn't. For example, he brought Homan on far too late, and could of introduced Farrell to try and lift the team earlier.

Anyway, like Triton said, I'm sick of this topic, and I'm sure we're boring the arse off everyone else on the board. How about I just avoid posting on threads about or to do with Dublin? It seems that anytime I do, I'm attacked for being biased so maybe its best if I just spend my time laughing in my living room when they lose to Tyrone in the replay!

Joking aside, that's the last thing I've to say on Dublin football (unless one of you makes a totally outrageous comment that I feel I have to intervene eg. Cluxton and Sherlock for the team of the championsip - maybe based on future matches but not based on their performances up to that date). We'll let Whelan show who's right or wrong in two weeks: either you have faith in him and are happy to settle the argument based on how you think he'll perform or you don't have faith in him.

Culchie

ZZZZzzzzzz Boring now lads. :rolleyes:

Lemlin

That's the point I'm trying to make Culchie. Anyway, let's just leave it all at that.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

kaimera

heh. Welcome to GAA Merc