Question - i just got pulled for undertaking

preilly79

without getting into the nitty -gritty of exactly what happened, i was pulled over by a motorcycle garda on the m50 yesterday. he asked to explain what i was doing, he asked for my license and checked my insurance disc in my windscreen.

the garda then asked me to produce my license and insurance certificate at a station of my choice. he didnt say very much after that except 'watch your driving' etc.

when i produce my license and insurance at the station is that all? should i expect a court appearance? if so, should the garda have not informed me of the actions that were going to be taken?

hopefully somebody in here can help me answer these questions.

many thanks in advance

Gurgle

preilly79 wrote:

he didnt say very much after that except 'watch your driving' etc.

Sounds like you got away with it.

testicle

You were lucky. When you call into the Piggery, that will be all.

Stephen

Just make sure they actually record the fact that you presented your licence and insurance at the station, i've seen threads on this board before about people who got summons for court for allegedly not showing up with their details at the station even though they did, and some muppet never recorded it.

Bluetonic

preilly79 wrote:

without getting into the nitty -gritty of exactly what happened, i was pulled over by a motorcycle garda on the m50 yesterday. he asked to explain what i was doing, he asked for my license and checked my insurance disc in my windscreen.

the garda then asked me to produce my license and insurance certificate at a station of my choice. he didnt say very much after that except 'watch your driving' etc.

when i produce my license and insurance at the station is that all? should i expect a court appearance? if so, should the garda have not informed me of the actions that were going to be taken?

hopefully somebody in here can help me answer these questions.

many thanks in advance

Why were you undertaking?

squibs

Is it legal to undertake if you're driving a hearse?

milltown

In order to prosecute you he has to caution you at the scene under the relevant sections of the RTA. It sounds like you may have got away with it although I'd worry why he is still looking for you to produce. If he hauls you into court it's his word against yours as to whether a verbal caution was given at the scene.
You're on dodgy ground if you stand up in court and call the Garda a liar.

Turner

milltown wrote:

In order to prosecute you he has to caution you at the scene under the relevant sections of the RTA. It sounds like you may have got away with it although I'd worry why he is still looking for you to produce. If he hauls you into court it's his word against yours as to whether a verbal caution was given at the scene.

Why offer advice when it is complete rubbish..

He does not have to caution you under any section of the RTA and does not have to inform you of his intention to prosecute, used to be the way but is not law anymore.

He will probably wait to see if your licence and insurance are in order and if they are that will be the end of it. Did you undertake on the hard shoulder or across hatched markings? If not you should be ok as its allowed to undertake traffic in the overtaking lane if they are travelling slower than traffic in the inside lane.

Stephen

Well, I assume the OP didn't have his licence on him at the time, which would be why the garda wants it produced at the station? (Although, is it not now the law that you must have your licence on you at all times when driving?)

Alun

He does not have to caution you under any section of the RTA and does not have to inform you of his intention to prosecute, used to be the way but is not law anymore.

Really? Is there any sane, logical reason for this? I'd have thought the very least they'd have to do is inform the person concerned that they were planning on prosecuting them, and if so, what exactly for and to issue some kind of ticket to them. Sounds more like the Wild West here every day if, as you say, they can just leave you guessing like that.

Andrew Duffy

its allowed to undertake traffic in the overtaking lane if they are travelling slower than traffic in the inside lane

No it isn't. You can pass on the left if you are turning left, the car you are passing is turning right or if traffic is moving in queues and your lane is moving faster. At what speed traffic is no longer "moving in queues" isn't defined, but it's safe to say that if the traffic is moving continuously without stopping, it's not safe to undertake.

preilly79

Stephen wrote:

Well, I assume the OP didn't have his licence on him at the time, which would be why the garda wants it produced at the station? (Although, is it not now the law that you must have your licence on you at all times when driving?)

no, i had my license with me at the time and my insurance was in date and displayed in my windscreen, which is why it's a little confusing.

Turner

Andrew Duffy wrote:

No it isn't. You can pass on the left if you are turning left, the car you are passing is turning right or if traffic is moving in queues and your lane is moving faster. At what speed traffic is no longer "moving in queues" isn't defined, but it's safe to say that if the traffic is moving continuously without stopping, it's not safe to undertake.

Traffic on the m50 mostly moves in queues maybe at 50-60mph. In effect unless at night the overtaking lane becomes another driving lane. As long as the undertaking is safe it would be acceptable.

Reason he asked OP to produce his certificate is that a cert is alot hardier to copy or fake than a disc. Also any conditions attached to the policy are listed on the cert.

Oriel

What the hell is undertaking anyways?

testicle

Think now...

What's Overtaking? Undertaking is the opposite. :-)

HTH!

ando

testicle wrote:

Think now...

What's Overtaking? Undertaking is the opposite. :-)

HTH!

hahah


seriously but, this is one of the biggest grey area's. I'm under the impression that you can undertake once your not above the speed limit. Doesnt really matter though cause I'll still do it if someone says its wrong

Our man in Havana

Alun wrote:

Really? Is there any sane, logical reason for this? I'd have thought the very least they'd have to do is inform the person concerned that they were planning on prosecuting them, and if so, what exactly for and to issue some kind of ticket to them. Sounds more like the Wild West here every day if, as you say, they can just leave you guessing like that.

They must caution you that a prosecution may be considered under section x,y or z of whatever Act 19xx.

They did this to me when I was involved in an accident, I was never prosecuted anyways.

Alun

Bond-007 wrote:

They must caution you that a prosecution may be considered under section x,y or z of Act 19xx.

What does that mean? Does the guard go home, have a cup of tea and a chocolate biscuit and think to himself, "You know, that guy I pulled over today? I think I will prosecute him after all!" What a joke. Either he should prosecute or not. I can't think of another police force I've ever had any dealings with that acts in that manner. Everywhere else if you get stopped you either get a ticket, and on-the-spot fine or a verbal warning, not a vague threat of a possible prosecution at some date in the future yet to be determined.

Our man in Havana

may be considered

That's excatly what they mean, you may be prosecuted.

Thats the way things are done in this bannana republic. They can leave it hanging over you for 6 months.

528i

You'll be summoned to appear in court on charges of dangerous driving in afew weeks time. did you note the gardas name/no.? you must speak with a local councillor who can influence these things.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Rodney Trotter

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

It is NOT illegal to pass on the left. The specific circumstances have already been outlined on this thread. If you are in the left lane, and proceeding at a legal speed, you are perfectly entitled to continue on your way , regardless of what any idiot is doing in the RH Lane. Where there would be a doubt, and a possible problem, is where you are in the RH lane and move to the LH lane to pass a car in front, then move back to the RH Lane.

To expect all law-abiding traffic in the LH Lane to have to slow down to the speed of some idiot in the RH lane is ludicrous.

oli_ro

I wouln't be so sure you got away with it. I was in a similar situation(difference offence, covered in another post).

Took my details, told me to produce certificate insurance. I did, and completely forgot about it. 4 months latter, summoned in court for careless driving.

Why should he allow you to get away with it?
It's his duty not to, and he would look good if he manages to get you convicted.

You make what you will from my story, but this is what happened with me.

sceptre

squibs wrote:

Is it legal to undertake if you're driving a hearse?

That's terrible. Imaginary + rep for you all the same.

DubTony

Rodney Trotter wrote:

It is NOT illegal to pass on the left. The specific circumstances have already been outlined on this thread. If you are in the left lane, and proceeding at a legal speed, you are perfectly entitled to continue on your way , regardless of what any idiot is doing in the RH Lane. Where there would be a doubt, and a possible problem, is where you are in the RH lane and move to the LH lane to pass a car in front, then move back to the RH Lane.

To expect all law-abiding traffic in the LH Lane to have to slow down to the speed of some idiot in the RH lane is ludicrous.

It may be ludicrous, but it's expected. As Andrew sad earlier, you can only undertake when traffic is moving in queues. My brother was stopped for this a few years back and argued that the traffic outside was moving slower. He was told in no uncertain terms that undertaking in that situation was allowed when traffic in the outside lane was actually slowly moving traffic.

The cop defined traffic as "bumper to bumper" at less than 15 mph. He said "Just because he's doing 40 and you're doing 50 doesn't mean he is in slowly moving traffic."

So you can be sure it applies the same way at 80k and 100k.

DubTony

Rodney Trotter wrote:

It is NOT illegal to pass on the left. The specific circumstances have already been outlined on this thread. If you are in the left lane, and proceeding at a legal speed, you are perfectly entitled to continue on your way , regardless of what any idiot is doing in the RH Lane. Where there would be a doubt, and a possible problem, is where you are in the RH lane and move to the LH lane to pass a car in front, then move back to the RH Lane.

To expect all law-abiding traffic in the LH Lane to have to slow down to the speed of some idiot in the RH lane is ludicrous.

It may be ludicrous, but it's expected. As Andrew sad earlier, you can only undertake when traffic is moving in queues. My brother was stopped for this a few years back and argued that the traffic outside was moving slower. He was told in no uncertain terms that undertaking in that situation was allowed when traffic in the outside lane was actually slowly moving traffic.

The cop defined traffic as "bumper to bumper" at less than 15 mph. He said "Just because he's doing 40 and you're doing 50 doesn't mean he is in slowly moving traffic."

So you can be sure it applies the same way at 80k and 100k.

RE*AC*TOR

To OP - did the cop say anything other than "watch your driving" - did he say he pulled you over for undertaking? Was it possible you were driving dangerously (perhaps driving up to within an inch of the car in front of you, before swinging wildly into the left hand lane at 90mph)?

fletch

To make any kind of reasonable progress on the M50, you simply have to undertake....simple

stevenmu

I'd guess your chances of being prosecuted depend on what type of undertaking you were doing. If you were undertaking in the hard shoulder, especially coming up to off/on ramps, your chances are going to be much higher than if you were just undertaking in the left lane.

edit: I'd also guess that the reason they don't always say on the spot that they're going to prosecute is that they might have to check things like if their camera caught the move on tape. They also probably don't want to get the sh*t kicked out of them by someone.

leahcim

I was caught doing (what the Garda considered) a dangerous overtaking manover a few years ago. I was asked to hand my licence and insurance into the station within 10 days.

The guard cautioned me under one of the road traffic acts. I asked him whether that meant I would have to go to court he told me that it wasn’t his decision to make. He said that a more senior officer makes that decision. It seems like they review all the evidence to ensure that is sticks in court, I assume they don’t want to risk wasting courts time.

Anyway as luck would have it I didn’t get a summons.

In my opinion many Guards pull you over just to give you a bit of a warning the whole handing the insurance and licence to the station is just standard procedure.

mackerski

Some of you folks are really worrying me - before I first took the controls of a big heavy vehicle I familiarised myself with the rules attaching to it. Am I alone?

Anyway, those of you convinced that it's uniformly OK to left-overtake:

* as long as you're under the limit (??? the speeding laws cover all other cases, why would they regulate separately???)
* as long as the guy in the overtaking lane is taking the mick
* if you feel like it

...should have a read of this. Yes, it fails to qualify "slow". No, I don't think all speeds within the legal limit automatically qualify.

Search for the bit on overtaking. Though TBH it might be no bad thing to read the rest; if you don't know the basics of overtaking who knows what other undiscovered gems might lie within?

Dermot