Unions - Was Mrs Thatcher Right?

magpie

I was watching the news last night to see SIPTU claiming that DART drivers had the right to higher pay as they would be expected to carry 6+ cars of passengers, claiming higher responsibility and productivity.

They then had an Iarnrod Eireann representative who pointed out that under the PPF agreement DART drivers earn €48000 pa for a 40 hour 5 day week! Considerably more than many boards.ie users who have 3rd and even 4th level qualifications.

So it struck me, maybe Thatcher was right to break the Unions' stranglehold. The time when Unions stopped the working class from being exploited has passed, now they exploit their position to bully and extort unrealistically high salaries for low-qualification positions under the threat of destroying the country's infrastructure through strikes.

Given the vast quantity of highly-skilled workers available in Poland, Latvia and Lithuania who I'm sure would be delighted to drive DARTS, Busses etc for I suspect a fraction of what we have to pay our homegrown Unionised racketeers why can't we bring in foreign labour to do these jobs and break the unions for once and for all?

Irish society would benefit enormously from this sector of the workforce being thankful to have work, rather than demanding what are effectively professional salary levels for unskilled labour.

More info here

bonkey

magpie wrote:

They then had an Iarnrod Eireann representative who pointed out that under the PPF agreement DART drivers earn €48000 pa for a 40 hour 5 day week!
Considerably more than many boards.ie users who have 3rd and even 4th level qualifications.

Are you basing that last sentence on a guess, or are there figures to back it up? National average salaries against educational level, perhaps?

And, I have to say, my immediate reaction is "so what if they're earning more". Is playing a key role in the struggle to contain Dublin's traffic not important enough for you to want to pay for it?

Even if you're right....can't the boards.ie users who are losing out financially apply for jobs driving the DART? Its an open market, and if - as you keep suggesting - the qualifications required are so low, then they're not an obstacle to anyone with a higher education qualification, are they?

The time when Unions stopped the working class from being exploited has passed, now they exploit their position to bully and extort unrealistically high salaries for low-qualification positions under the threat of destroying the country's infrastructure through strikes.

I'd argue they do both. There is no shortage of examples of workers still getting screwed today, just as there is no shortage of examples of unions taking govt. to the cleaners.

Can you show, as a matter of interest, that average civil service salaries match or beat average private-sector salaries in any fields relevant to the discsussion? If they don't beat them then it would seem that unions aren't doing as well for state and semi-state employees as market forces do for the rest of us.....which would call into question the suggestion that its time for unions to go because they're getting too much.

Given the vast quantity of highly-skilled workers available in Poland, Latvia and Lithuania who I'm sure would be delighted to drive DARTS, Busses etc
...
rather than demanding what are effectively professional salary levels for unskilled labour.

I find it interesting that whenever you talk about the Irish people in these positions, it is unskilled / low-qualified work. When you refer to the foreigners who would be glad to take the position...they are highly skilled.

for I suspect a fraction of what we have to pay our homegrown Unionised

Anything more than a suspicion to help us along here? Or is a suspicion all it takes these days to second-guess the government?

jc

pickarooney

Well a DART driver earns more than twice what I do, with a 4-year degree and 7 year's experience, but all I do is push a mouse around all day.
I wouldn't turn down 50,000 a year for doing what I do, but I certaily wouldn't say I was really earning it. If the government wants to pay DART drivers that amount for 'pushing a few buttons' as one poster on the other thread in AH put it, then they'd be fools not to take it.

magpie

Can you show, as a matter of interest, that average civil service salaries match or beat average private-sector salaries in any fields relevant to the discsussion?

Why don't we privatise public transport and find out which is cheaper and/or more efficient? Otherwise you're not comparing like with like

whenever you talk about the Irish people in these positions, it is unskilled / low-qualified work. When you refer to the foreigners who would be glad to take the position...they are highly skilled.

Because Irish people with 3rd level education don't drive DARTS, people who leave school at 15 with no qualifications do. However there are lots of people with 3rd level education in Eastern Europe who are driven by economic necessity to come over and do unskilled work, and who are quite happy to do it.

Anything more than a suspicion to help us along here?

I guarantee you can find people to drive DARTS for 50% less than what we are currently paying, if you could remove the obstacle of SIPTU from preventing the free market from sorting the wheat from the chaff.

Barry Kenny quoted the €48,000 for a 40 hr 5 day week on last nights 9 news on RTÉ and on morning Ireland,they can also get overtime.
Willie Noone of Siptu stated that it takes 10 yrs to get tothat level and starter drivers are on €38,000

They want a 9.5% pay rise for driving trains with 2 extra carriages-whats the inflation rate again?
I'd like to know if they have been getting the annual increases due to the various annual national wage agreement programmes.

Kenny also said that this improvement ie the the extra 2 trains and the improved track to carry them was approved in an agreement with the unions in 2000 and that the improvement would be brought in without disruption.

He said that what the union is argue-ing from a 1983 deal which was superceded by the 2000 agreement.

I'm inclined to think this is greedy to be honest.
Some background and links to listen to the morning Ireland interviews can be got here

It reminds me of my local post office workers who got lump sum disturbance money to move to a new building-the new building was next door... :rolleyes:

Zombrex

I don't think the unions have a leg to stand on to be honest, as has been pointed out they reached an agreement in 2000 and now are rejecting this agreement and basing their grevience on a much older agreement.

I would point out though that €48,000 isn't a lot of money. It might seem it is to a single, under 30, IT professional earning less that €30k a year (ie me) but to a person in with a morgage, 3 kids and a wife to support, €48 isn't going to go that far. The point the drivers are making is that the 48k is the maximum that a driver can earn, even if they take on more carriges. Both my parents earned a lot more than that and they wouldn't be considered that well off.

Like i said, I don't think they have a leg to stand on, but I still wouldn't be thinking they are loaded already

magpie

The point the drivers are making is that the 48k is the maximum that a driver can earn, even if they take on more carriges. Both my parents earned a lot more than that and they wouldn't be considered that well off.

In the ratio of qualifications to earnings €48,000 is a lot of money.

You seriously expect me to feel sorry that its the ceiling to their income? €48000 is double what the government should be paying for unskilled labour.

to a person in with a morgage, 3 kids and a wife to support, €48 isn't going to go that far.

What percentage of DART drivers have mortgages, and what percentage live in Council Houses I wonder?

As for the 3 kids and a wife, I didn't realise that entitled you to be paid dramatically over the odds. I was always under the impression it was up to you to meet your own responsibilities, by taking on a second job if necessary. I must have a word with my boss about the money I'm evidently owed.

Zombrex

magpie wrote:

You seriously expect me to feel sorry that its the ceiling to their income? €48000 is double what the government should be paying for unskilled labour.

You think an "unskilled" (I think you mean "un-3rd-level-qualificationed," last time I check the train drivers have a skill, ie driving trains) should make €23,000 a year no matter how long they have worked at the company? Why, exactly? Cause they didn't spend 3 years getting high and partying in college?

magpie

magpie wrote:

You seriously expect me to feel sorry that its the ceiling to their income? €48000 is double what the government should be paying for unskilled labour.

While I do think the Dart drivers are trying it on.
I don't think it's accurate to describe their job as unskilled.
I doubt that it requires more skill though to take on an extra 2 carriages.

When pressed on the reason for the rise,SIPTU said because it's a bigger work load with being responsible for more passengers.
Pressed further they said for example evacuating the passengers during break downs.They couldnt come up with a reasonable(in my view) explanation as to any other increased work load-probably because there isn't any.

I've been on plenty half empty Dart's-should we bring in a scheme of payment per passenger perhaps? Say halve their pay when the trains are half empty?
I wonder how that would go down?

Zombrex

magpie wrote:

What percentage of DART drivers have mortgages, and what percentage live in Council Houses I wonder?

What are you talking about?

magpie wrote:

As for the 3 kids and a wife, I didn't realise that entitled you to be paid dramatically over the odds.

It isn't dramatically over the odds, thats the point .. it is actually quite a crap pay if you compare it to the same pay in other jobs.

magpie wrote:

I was always under the impression it was up to you to meet your own responsibilities, by taking on a second job if necessary.

Or you know, the company you work for could pay you a decent wage for your experience and years of service. Just an idea.

magpie wrote:

I must have a word with my boss about the money I'm evidently owed.

I have no idea what you do, but if you like me work in IT you would be expecting to be making a lot more than €48k when you are 40 or over. Most of the senior developers at the company I work at, who have been with the company for more than about 10 years and have about 15 years experience, are on about 60k-65k. And that is before you get to managment, that is just developers, doing the same job I am doing.

Baz_

Yeah lets get rid of the unions, then we can end up like america, getting shafted every which way the boss's can.

Mrs. Thatcher was right about only one thing in her life:
Nothing!*

Baz_

*The author of this post knows absolutely nothing about the life and career of Mrs Margaret Thatcher and as such this statement should not be taken as factual.

magpie

should make €23,000 a year no matter how long they have worked at the company? Why, exactly?

Because that's the price that the company could find someone else to do the same job. If the person doesn't like it they can leave and be replaced by another highly-replaceable unskilled worker. Its not a question of loyalty, its economics. If you could train a chimp to do it for bananas I'd be in favour of that, and wouldn't expect the chimp to demand more bananas based on his years of service.

It isn't dramatically over the odds, thats the point .. it is actually quite a crap pay if you compare it to the same pay in other jobs.

Oh really? Do suburban train drivers elsewhere in Ireland get paid more than €48k? Or are you comparing it with pay in jobs that require 3rd or 4th level qualifications? In which case you probably think its terrible that bin men don't get the same as the CEO of AIB.

the company you work for could pay you a decent wage for your experience and years of service

In private industry a company will weigh up whether it would be more expensive to replace you or give you a pay rise. The same thing should and would happen in the public sector if it wasn't for the unions.

Most of the senior developers at the company I work at, who have been with the company for more than about 10 years and have about 15 years experience, are on about 60k-65k. And that is before you get to managment, that is just developers, doing the same job I am doing.

Which is only proper as these are considerably more skilled and educated people than train drivers. They also contribute to the economy through the creation of jobs, the expansion of business and the development of marketable ideas. They don't sit in a carriage reading the Star and pressing green and red buttons alternately.

SparkyLarks

Your qualifications and your education shouldn;'t have a bearing on what you earn.

What affects your wages is how essential the job you do is, it's value to the users and how much others are willing to do the job for.

Personally I think the Unions have too much power in this country. Unions are needed to protect workers from Companies like Gama. Not to threathen strikes after labour court rulings.

The problems with working in heavily unioinised companies is that the laziest people are protected. Promotins occur on time served rather than expertise and effort. Bonuses are not heavily performance related. I even know of a hevily unionised company wher workers get a bonus as compensation for being paid electronically, as opposed to being paid by cash. :eek:

It becomes difficult for companies to bring in more efficant work practices because the Unions will demand wage increases, sometimes justified sometimes not.

I think the problem is when you have trade unionis for their own sake. Someone who works for a trade union will always be looking for something to complain about. If each company had their own union then the balance would be fairer. The fact that Large trade unions can crippe the Ecomomy gives them too much bargining power with the public sector.

The fact that if The Train drivers strike then SIPTU can get the bus and rail drivers to strike as well. Leaving Dublin transport in a compleate mess.

Mighty_Mouse

I would come from the left on most political arguments but I must admit that I was a little confused as to how a train driver would deserve an increase for driving a longer train. Is it harder work?

I dont know enough about it though.

Zombrex

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

I would come from the left on most political arguments but I must admit that I was a little confused as to how a train driver would deserve an increase for driving a longer train. Is it harder work?

It is a measurement of experience/pay-rate I think ... they don't really care about carrying more trains, but it is the fact that the ceiling for pay is still set at €48k.

It is like a managment position. Being a manager doesn't necessaryly mean you are actually doing more work, or that your work is more stressful (in fact quite the opposite most of the time), but you still get paid a hell of a lot more.

BTW, i don't support the drivers in this case ... they seem to be trying to bend the rules for this ... the labour court has already rejected it afaik

foxybrowne

I just joined a union last month cos I was having some trouble in work, and I have to say, it was really helpful. I got advice about my basic entitlements and about how to request them. It gave me a lot more confidence to talk to my boss about such issues, knowing that I had some back-up. Now what's wrong with that?

"Was Mrs. Thatcher Right?" - well she was hardly left!

therecklessone

SparkyLarks wrote:

Personally I think the Unions have too much power in this country. Unions are needed to protect workers from Companies like Gama. Not to threathen strikes after labour court rulings.

SIPTU represented the Turkish employees of Gama during their dispute.

SIPTU are on of the two unions involved in this dispute with IE.

So do they have too much power? Or they're necessary to protect against a Gama-type situation again?

Sparkylarks wrote:

If each company had their own union then the balance would be fairer. The fact that Large trade unions can crippe the Ecomomy gives them too much bargining power with the public sector.

The fact that if The Train drivers strike then SIPTU can get the bus and rail drivers to strike as well. Leaving Dublin transport in a compleate mess.

If you limited unions to company-wide representation, wouldn't the fact that public transport workers are ultimately employees of CIE negate your efforts in this instance?

lostexpectation

i think the reporting of the dart drivers thing has been unfair, look at the gate gourmet instigating a stirke so they can avoid severance pay and aer lingus too screwing around with employees you need a union as a counterbalance neither's perfect...

Zombrex

lostexpectation wrote:

you need a union as a counterbalance neither's perfect...

exactly ... just like you get corrupt/greedy companies you will inevitably get corrupt/greedy worker unions ... doesn't mean we should get rid of companies, doesn't mean we should get rid of unions.

I don't support the DART workers in this instance, but it is hardly an example of the unions running riot ...

therecklessone

lostexpectation wrote:

i think the reporting of the dart drivers thing has been unfair, look at the gate gourmet instigating a stirke so they can avoid severance pay and aer lingus too screwing around with employees you need a union as a counterbalance neither's perfect...

Who's screwing who now? They made a claim to the Labour Court, it ruled against them, they're threatening strike. They're in the wrong, end of.

murphaph

It takes 18 weeks training to be a fully 'qualified' DART driver. It is unskilled labour. Working in McDonald's requires training but you wouldn't say their employees were skilled workers.

hmmmm when I was in jfk recently, there was a perfectly effecient electric train system running 2 carriages over a couple of miles with no driver at all...

bonkey

I'm willing to bet it didn't have any level-crossings, bridges that were likely to be taken out by idiot road-traffic, or any of the other problems that require human intervention on lines like the DART.

As for the "unqualified" claims...sorry...but thats just ridiculous. FFS...I've spent less time picking up some of my IT qualifications, and you see ppl on the Programming board constantly asking about the best way to obtain same. I also think that if you're going to knock 18 weeks of training as not counting for anything....spend 18 weeks doing something and tell me at the end of it that you've neither learned anything nor actually spent any time doing it. I studied subjects in university for less time....apparently I've no qualification in those either.

The union is making unreasonable demands, but doing so based on what is a long-established tradition in this country. They don't deserve a raise, and I hope they don't get it....but trying to knock every aspect of their job just because you don't like that they're looking for more money is - being as charitable as I can - pointless and petty.

jc

bonkey

bonkey wrote:

I'm willing to bet it didn't have any level-crossings, bridges that were likely to be taken out by idiot road-traffic, or any of the other problems that require human intervention on lines like the DART.

You'd be right,I wouldn't have given ya odds good enough to entice you to bet on that though
That said it was quite impressive.

The union is making unreasonable demands, but doing so based on what is a long-established tradition in this country. They don't deserve a raise, and I hope they don't get it....but trying to knock every aspect of their job just because you don't like that they're looking for more money is - being as charitable as I can - pointless and petty.

jc

Well said.
As Regards why they are looking for this,
I suppose they are like any lobby group.
If they don't look for something, theres definitely no chance of getting it.
That applies to a lot of things.

SkepticOne

bonkey wrote:

Even if you're right....can't the boards.ie users who are losing out financially apply for jobs driving the DART? Its an open market, and if - as you keep suggesting - the qualifications required are so low, then they're not an obstacle to anyone with a higher education qualification, are they?

I don't think the unions would be happy with that - taking on lower paid workers in place of higher paid ones.

cal29

magpie wrote:

.

Given the vast quantity of highly-skilled workers available in Poland, Latvia and Lithuania who I'm sure would be delighted to drive DARTS, Busses etc for I suspect a fraction of what we have to pay our homegrown Unionised racketeers why can't we bring in foreign labour to do these jobs and break the unions for once and for all?

Irish society would benefit enormously from this sector of the workforce being thankful to have work, rather than demanding what are effectively professional salary levels for unskilled labour.

]

I notice your not suggesting we bring in cheap foreign labour to do your job I'm sure we could find people in less well off countries to do any job in this country for less money than the current employee is earning

Or do you believe that because you have some 3rd level education your position should be protected I gaurantee that there are plenty of people who are just as qualified as you who will do your job for less money than you are currently earning.

Honestly I think there is a rascist undercurrent to what you are suggesting lets get in highly educated foreigners to do the jobs I dont want to do for very little money. Basically you want to take advantage of migrant workers in a similar fashion to the way companies like gama and Irish ferries operate


Also any kind of action along the lines you are suggesting ie sacking moderately paid people and replacing them with cheap foreign labour would only act to encourage rascism and play into the hands of racist groups like storm front and immigration control platform.

magpie

notice your not suggesting we bring in cheap foreign labour to do your job

Since I work in the private sector I fully expect that as an when it becomes cheaper and more efficient to replace me with foreign labour that's exactly what will happen.

This is precisely why I make a point of continually improving my skills and gaining further professional qualifications as I go along, coupled with my 10+ years experience. You'll note I'm not sitting on my arse after 18 weeks training expecting a permanent pensionable job, with regular pay rises every time the union suspects I might have to walk a further 3 feet along the platform.

ambro25

Must admit I'm siding with Magpie insofar as public workers' expectations (and proactive ways of attaining same, as per the OP) are concerned.

Thatcher was right... there, I've said it. And the reason I believe she was? I'm French, was a 'highly-skilled migrant' and at the time of emigrating ('94) and was willing to take on anything, because unemployment rate in France was knocking on 12.5% and I knew full well I'd be either (i) working for my Dad, or (ii) on the dole, or (iii) bounced from company to company (assuming job interview success in each case) as they'd get rid at the end of the probation period or not renew the short-term contract. Lucky me, I had three options in the day - most people had but one.

That was after 7 years of Socialist rule under Mitterand, during which large 'very left' unions (CGT/CFDT) ballooned, mostly from the public sector.

The situation for your average white collar guy today? The same (i)/(ii)/(iii). And the FR public sector? well, ballpark guess is 2,000 applicants for any public sector job, with tests/exams (just like Leaving Cert/Degree exams) in lieu of job interviews.

The private sector is endemically stretched in terms of human resources and the 35-hour week, claimed as right by the public sector mostly (who have a very marginalk unbderstanding of such abstract concepts as 'performance measurement', 'value for money', 'service levels, etc.), has further decimated the private sector, a very big f*cking lot of which just cannot compete economically any more with even European competitors, never mind India/China/S.Africa...

So what do we have now - snapshot: strikes (I think you'll have seen enough of those reported on TV by now) every school holiday or on any mention of pension/working hours reform, unemployment still at 10%, average private sector pay & increases below inflation rate whereas public sector's are above, and a growing resentment dividing public sector workers from private sector workers, turning quite bitter these days...

In short, a broad brush picture of a country which may represent today what Ireland might some day in the not-so-distant-future. And Thatcher in all that? Well, before emigrating to IE, I had emigrated to the UK - it wasn't any greener, nor is IE compared to the UK... but at least their public sector has started (it's taken long enough!) to assimilate private sector notions where service levels are concerned, and public/private sector workers are no worse off there with so few unions than here with powerful ones.

the_syco

Wicknight wrote:

It isn't dramatically over the odds, thats the point .. it is actually quite a crap pay if you compare it to the same pay in other jobs.

Most jobs start at 20K. Any IT job you look at starts at about 20K, if you have little to no experience. The train drivers start at €38K.

=-=

Gama was one thing. Irish Ferries, tho, was employing a company to contract staff. That company paid good wages (for that country), but compared to th country thy were working in (Eire), it was sh|te. OT, but if you think that you should be paid the same as the "local rate", then no-one would do work in a foreign country where the wages may be 1/8 of the wages here.

=-=

I support the right of a trade union. They're still all lefty socialist bas*ards, tho.

Flukey

We need employers, employees, unions etc. They all have their role to play. Finding the balance is the usual problem. The various social partnership agreements, which started with the Programme for National Recovery in 1987, were among the factors that brought about the Celtic Tiger. The various agreements between the social partners have always been difficult to achieve, with everyone trying to get their piece, but they have helped. Anyone that remembers the 1970s and early 1980s and the amount of strikes and disruption we had then will know that they did make a difference.

The more recent agreements have had their own problems, coming in a time of a booming economy which lead to even higher demands by everyone, but still we have got through them and in many ways we have a better economy and conditions than we could have. These agreements have caused some difficulties as well, but it is far better to have the social partners working together, albeit with the occasional industrial dispute, than what we had prior to 1987.

Unions and employers will always be at loggerheads trying to get their interests served. That will always lead to problems. Still, it is better to have unions to represent workers, even if it does cause problems, than not having them.

cal29

magpie wrote:

Since I work in the private sector I fully expect that as an when it becomes cheaper and more efficient to replace me with foreign labour that's exactly what will happen.

This is precisely why I make a point of continually improving my skills and gaining further professional qualifications as I go along, coupled with my 10+ years experience. You'll note I'm not sitting on my arse after 18 weeks training expecting a permanent pensionable job, with regular pay rises every time the union suspects I might have to walk a further 3 feet along the platform.

No what you suggested was that people currently working for IE should be sacked and people who would be willing to work for half that ammount of money be brought into the country to do their jobs so should the same happen to your own job if your employer can find someone from outside the country willing to do your job for half your current wage should you just be sacked

As for slapping yourself on the back because you are still training that is the nature of your employment it is not the nature of everyones employment However Iam fairly sure that Dart drivers would have received training on the introduction of the new traction units and more than likely undergo regular training on changes in the nature of their employment etc

And whilst you dont have a permanent pensionable job I get the impression that you would like one and are jealous of those that have chosen careers that provide those benefits can I suggest that you think about a change of career