Death to Pagans?

dathi1

I was browsing through the Quran last night (link provided by Hobes) and found numerous quotes on how to kill polythests and unbelivers etc. Now I would probably fall into the Pagan category myself. Am I a dead duck?

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Hobbes

What link did I provide? And you have read the charter links?

dathi1

The University of California Quran English Translation. Yes I read all the charter points above. Have I violated one.?

Hobbes

Nope and I didn't provide the link last night. Hence the confusion. I suggested the charter links as it links off to your very question. I have updated the FAQ to include it as well.

Cake Fiend

You want to read through the Old Testament of the Christian Bible there and have a look at what they have to say about pagans and followers of other religions?

How many modern Christians do you see going around murdering infidels? Apply the same consideration to modern Muslims. The one-odd billion of them. I'd say you're probably OK

dathi1

You want to read through the Old Testament of the Christian Bible there and have a look at what they have to say about pagans and followers of other religions?

Interesting point...does it actually say kill them if they dont convert? Old testament is pre Christian?

How many modern Christians do you see going around murdering infidels? Apply the same logic to modern Muslims.

With the situation in the middle east I totally agree with you here but I'm specifically talking about the Quran. It actually has verses all there in black and white on 3 options with unbelievers. Offer then to convert, If no an Islamic poll tax may be levied or if no again ...death!

Hobbes

dathi1 wrote:

Interesting point...does it actually say kill them if they dont convert? Old testament is pre Christian?

Pretty much yes it does. Old testament also has the 10 commandments.

r3boot

guys, you keep providing english quotes for classical arabic texts. Arabic is a language of implied meaning. you will need to find the original text in arabic and find the context in order to find out what it means even then you will also have to find out how people were categoriesed into muslims and non-muslims. For example there are zanadiqa who are people who kill muslims and murtad (who is a muslim who decides that islam isn't for him/her and there for all muslims should die)

Also the toll paid by non-muslims at the time was eqivelant a muslim is supposed to pay (zakat) (maybe a little bit more it's been years since I've had an interest in this stuff)

If you are going to talk about islamic law I suggest you look up the "shariea" or islamic laws and and find out how a person is considered a non believer, what the conditions are and what course of action you would have to take. You will find that the only person who has to be killed is a person who is mortad. That is some one who was a muslim and is now no longer one. The only way to determine this is if a person goes in front of an islamic court and proclaims that he is an enemy of islam. (The occasions in which this has occured are very rare). Also the only way a person can be considered a non-muslim is if he/she says so.

Beer is Life

The bible was written by man though, correct? The Quran is the word of god, and God is infallible, so if you are Muslim, you must follow the Quran to the letter, no?

Hobbes

If you check the FAQ you will find the answer to this question. Quick answer.

Muslims are tolerant of other religeons. Your still burning in the hell but you shouldn't get hassle over it.

Btw, Bible was written by a few people but portions of it are the will of god and god is infallible. Also Catholic Church is the voice of god (well at least the pope is). I believe Kevin Smith even made a movie about it.

Wibbs

Hobbes wrote:

If you check the FAQ you will find the answer to this question. Quick answer.

Muslims are tolerant of other religeons. Your still burning in the hell but you shouldn't get hassle over it.

Nice summation, but while most Muslims may be tolerant of others, Islam itself seems not to be. As I have pointed out before Islam is and has been from the start as much a political as religious movement. While it can be argued the Christianity for example was allied with Rome and grew accordingly through conquest and intolerance, Islam is inherently different. Islam had those mechanisms built in from its inception. One of the prime aims of the Prophet was to establish an Islamic theocracy for all mankind. During his life he went from a tolerant attitude in Mecca, to a more defensive attitude in Medina, all the way to an offensive attitude after he conquered Mecca.

Mecca itself is a good example when it comes to tolerance. When in the early days of Islam, when Muslims were in the minority and were excluded from the kaaba, this exclusion by the pagans was considered an act of aggression and war. When the Muslims conquered Mecca, they excluded the pagans from the kaaba on the basis that they were unclean.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.028
The memories of their own oppression from intolerance seemed to have been forgotten.

While in one sura you will find that there is no compunction of faith, others are far more intolerent of other faiths and even suggest a Muslim may have no friends or family of other faiths. This is repeated far too often for comfort and certainly far too often to suggest that Islam is tolerant. I would even go so far as to say that Islam is pro-actively intolerent of other faiths(especially Pagans and Jews).

I'll re-quote some of the relevent passages for reference.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.123
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.028
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.065
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/025.qmt.html#025.052
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.004
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.039
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.085
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.023
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.005

This is just the Quran, the Hadeeth has even more instruction along these lines.

Hobbes

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html#HEADING8

The bible also says (in the new testement) that you should kill people who don't follow the religon. I'd starting to feel deja vu from another thread.

EDIT: I knew I had a feeling I had seen this before. This is the third thread where this has been brought this topic up. If anyone does in another thread from now on you will be temp banned. As for you Wibbs you are posting stuff you already discussed in other threads and already had answers to.

Wibbs

Hobbes wrote:

I knew I had a feeling I had seen this before. This is the third thread where this has been brought this topic up. If anyone does in another thread from now on you will be temp banned. As for you Wibbs you are posting stuff you already discussed in other threads and already had answers to.

Hobbes, my apologies for repetition, but the reason I brought this up again is simply because I don't feel it has been adequately answered. This question lies at the very heart of the current perception of the Islamic faith, both within the faith itself and it's perceptions by those outside. If these valid(IMHO) questions are not raised or answered, only further confusion will result. As I've consistently pointed out, I would have much rather lived among Muslims than Christians in the 12th century, as the rule of law had much more protection built in and the civilisation that resulted was only surpassed long after in the Christian world. As I've also pointed out before, this is not a criticism of the vast majority of Muslims, I'm merely seeking answers to some of the values that I(and others) outside of the Muslim faith would see as giving succour and support to those who do questionable things in it's name.

In one of the other threads, both r3boot and Scottish made some valid points regarding the interpretation of the Quran, but the fact remains that there are far more warlike, intolerant and aggressive passages within the Quran and the Hadeeth than are present in other faiths. The ones I quoted are a small sample. The link your provide that seeks to explain this quotes 2 passages that back up the idea of tolerance, but when faced with the many more passages that seem to imply quite a different attitude, it leaves me confused to say the least. I'm simply looking for an opinion from practising Muslims on how they can integrate these attitudes with the idea of a peaceful and tolerant Islam.

Hobbes

Wibbs wrote:

Hobbes, my apologies for repetition, but the reason I brought this up again is simply because I don't feel it has been adequately answered.

Then you should bring it up again in a thread where the discussion is still going and not create or piggyback a new thread with more of less the exact same comments again.

This is offtopic, if you wish to continue to discuss this please PM me. Thread to resume its OP intentions.

Wibbs

No problem Hobbes, thanks for the reply.

EamonnKeane

The bible also says (in the new testement) that you should kill people who don't follow the religon.

Don't remember that bit.

Hobbes

Sorry I meant old testement.

rcunning03

If you told a Muslim your a pagan, they won't try to kill or convert you, but will ask the same question a Christain would ask you i.e. "Would you not prefer to be normal ?"

In the Christain world Islam is just as misunderstood as Paganism and Islam believe in Djinn (Otherworldy creatures that live parralel to us but we can't see them) and you don't need a priest to commicate with god, they have Immans but they are just well learned in Islam and offer advice.

Mick86

dathi1 wrote:

I was browsing through the Quran last night (link provided by Hobes) and found numerous quotes on how to kill polythests and unbelivers etc. Now I would probably fall into the Pagan category myself. Am I a dead duck?

Depends on which Muslim you meet probably.

The Koran, like all religious books is open to interpretation and that interpretation will be driven by the political aims of the interpreter.

KnowItAll

The thing about Islam is that if there were only about 1000 members it would be seen as a cult and it's members brainwashed. It would be banned. Because of the number of muslims people think it's a peaceful religion.

Wibbs

Well, to be fair you could say that about all religions. One could argue that the only difference between a cult and a religion is the size of it's membership. You could say that but I think it would be wrong. The frailty of individual humans and their sometimes dubious interpretation of faith doesn't take away from the good that spirituality can bring to humanity.

rcunning03

KnowItAll wrote:

The thing about Islam is that if there were only about 1000 members it would be seen as a cult and it's members brainwashed. It would be banned. Because of the number of muslims people think it's a peaceful religion.

One could argue that your the brainwashed one, but in reality I think your just trying to get yourself banned from the another board. You have my vote, I think you should be banned.

Troll away my friend, troll away

KnowItAll

rcunning03 wrote:

One could argue that your the brainwashed one, but in reality I think your just trying to get yourself banned from the another board. You have my vote, I think you should be banned.

Troll away my friend, troll away

Why do I try to get banned? I'm banned from many boards already for expressing an opinion that may be different to the opinion of some of the moderators. It's a pain in the ass to be honest.

I don't see Islam as being like other religions. I don't say anything bad against Buddists or Hindu's etc. Thats because I regard them as being peaceful religions.

Hobbes

KnowItAll wrote:

I don't see Islam as being like other religions. I don't say anything bad against Buddists or Hindu's etc. Thats because I regard them as being peaceful religions.

Then you probably need to stay here and read up on the religion more.

rcunning03

KnowItAll wrote:

Why do I try to get banned? I'm banned from many boards already for expressing an opinion that may be different to the opinion of some of the moderators. It's a pain in the ass to be honest.

I don't see Islam as being like other religions. I don't say anything bad against Buddists or Hindu's etc. Thats because I regard them as being peaceful religions.

If your being serious, Islam is a very peaceful religion and it has a lot very insightful ideas. There are a few nutters but that's like saying the Christian right in america is representative of all christians. The media portray totally the wrong image of islam, just like in the eighties it was republican terrorists and loyalist para-militaries.

Also you should look into who actually controls the media and what their agenda is.

Hobbes

I've split off the offtopic stuff. Please remain on topic on the thread.

Talliesin

KnowItAll wrote:

I don't say anything bad against Buddists or Hindu's etc. Thats because I regard them as being peaceful religions.

But both of those religions have had attrocities committed in their names too.

Wibbs

Talliesin wrote:

But both of those religions have had attrocities committed in their names too.

Hinduism, I can think of a couple of incidents, but Buddhism? Nowhere in the tenets of Buddhism is violence tolerated as a solution. In any case one could argue(wrongly in most cases) that as US presidents have all been Christians, all wars that the US has been involved in are religious wars. If you're using a countries predominant religion and it's involvement in war as an example of a religious war, you're pretty much on a hiding to nothing.

One has to consider the aims, attitudes to non believers/pagans in the faith itself in any question of this kind and I've made my case before re Islam on this point.

However, I will say that regardless of whatever faith is involved and regardless of specific instructions within the faith to non believers, most people tend to operate the live and let live principle. I've personally more faith in people, Pagan, Christian, Muslim or Jew, than I often have in the religion they follow. Maybe that's naive but I do believe that. If you're a Pagan living in a secular society, I reckon 99% of Muslims(or anyone else) won't really give a toss. Mostly they've got enough to worry about without caring about the pagans next door(now if you start raising a full size burning man in the back garden, questions may be raised..... ).

Hobbes

Wibbs wrote:

Nowhere in the tenets of Buddhism is violence tolerated as a solution.

Pretty sure your not allowed kill people in Catholic religon either.

But to answer you question.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/buddhism.shtml

* in the 14th century Buddhist fighters led the uprising that evicted the Mongols from China


* in Japan, Buddhist monks trained Samurai warriors in meditation that made them better fighters


* In the twentieth century Japanese Zen masters wrote in support of Japan's wars of aggression. For example, Sawaki Kodo (1880–1965) wrote this in 1942:

"It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb."

* In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives.

Osman

Greetings,

The question in the original post is addressed directly here

Wibbs

Hobbes wrote:

Pretty sure your not allowed kill people in Catholic religon either.

Who said that you are? Sorry I don't get your point.

But to answer you question.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/buddhism.shtml

In the first and last examples may I refer you to my first paragraph in my last post. In the middle two I would have to say that neither have any of the teachings of Buddha to back up the statements.

To quote buddha from your link "Even if thieves carve you limb from limb with a double-handed saw, if you make your mind hostile you are not following my teaching." Turn the other cheek etc.. When this is compared to Islam I think it's fairly easy to see differences, so it hardly answers my question really.