stockwell shooting a worse mistake than previously thought

edanto

According to a report on ITV news at the moment, the shooting of the man at Stockwell tube station in July may have been a mistake. It looks like he wasn't acting suspiciously as he went into the train station - merely running at the last minute for a train in the station.

links to follow..

edanto

The ITV report was based on what they say are leaked police documents, including statements from other officers. As Jean Charles de Menezes left his home, a video camera was trained on the door. The officer with the video camera was 'relieving himself' at the time and unable to operate the video camera. This meant that he couldn't rewind the tape to check the image against a CCTV printout they had of those involved in the failed bombings. So, he asked another officer to have a look.

The Brazilian then left on the bus and got off at the tube station and these leaked documents say that when he entered the station he:
-was wearing a demin jacket (not a bulky one)
-didn't vault the barrier
-stopped to pick up a free paper
-ran for a train he saw waiting on the platform

All of this contradicts what the Scotland yard said after the shooting
"His clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions." link

The police commisioner also said the man was "challenged and refused to obey police instructions". The ITV report suggested that this might not be true.

Assuming that this report is true - I think it's shocking that Met compounded the tragedy by not dispelling false rumours about his behaviour and clothes that may have upset his family unduly.

EDIT - as of now, there are no details about the police documents on the ITV site

whiskeyman

edanto wrote:

The Brazilian then left on the bus and got off at the tube station and these leaked documents say that when he entered the station he:
-was wearing a demin jacket (not a bulky one)
-didn't vault the barrier
-stopped to pick up a free paper
-ran for a train he saw waiting on the platform

The police commisioner also said the man was "challenged and refused to obey police instructions". The ITV report suggested that this might not be true.

If the above is true, that means an armed officer tackled an innocent civilian and pumped 7 (or was it 8?) shots into his head for no reason.

I think it's shocking that Met compounded the tragedy by not dispelling false rumours about his behaviour and clothes that may have upset his family unduly.

And they must have known within a few hours but never informed the media.
I still remember seeing all Saturdays newspapers with "dead man was terrorist" as headline.

flogen

If the above is true this is a real blow for the London police. Before, you could say that while they were acting with excess force they had some kind of doubt and got nervous, the fact that they took a man running for a train in normal clothes (how common is that at rush hour?) for a terrorist is a bad sign.

edanto

Agreed. If the report is confirmed, it's very embarassing for the Met. Everyone understands that it was a very stressful time and they had to make a quick decision in the tube station - in ways, that mistake is forgivable. It's worse to allow false stories to circulate.
They should provide the CCTV tapes to the family that they are asking for. Personally, I'm think they'd be too upsetting to watch - but if they want to know what happened, maybe they should be allowed to see them.

Just to clarify what I said above about the officer taping the block of flats - I think the camera wasn't on when Mr. de Menezes left the building, but you can't really fault that officer for answering a call of nature.

whiskeyman

Is this being reported on any other news org / wire yet?
It's not on Sky News and I dont see it referenced on the Beeb.
This is a major story and details need to be clarified.

edanto

No, so far the only report is from ITV here.

EDIT - I don't have access to any of the wire services. Anyone find any confirmation?

It's mentioned on the Irish Times breaking news service, but I can only see the headline.

whiskeyman

going on these reports, it appears he ran for the train and made it... even sat down on his seat.
So even if they shouted "police" or not, he would be totally unaware of the situation.
Also, one of the surveillance team (I presume unmarked) grappled with him and seemingly didnt identify himself. Perhaps the last thing going through Mr de Menezes mind was that the surveillance team member was a criminal / terrorist taking him hostage... and he would have tried to fight to escape, but then was killed in a hail of bullets.

I just hope these reports arent true.
No doubt the details will continue to change...

two more reports on this:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/PA_NEWA10001041124213637A00?source=PA%20Feed&ct=5
http://www.channel4.com/news/special-reports/special-reports-storypage.jsp?id=550

Flukey

Come on, be honest, are you really surprised? From the moment the shooting was first reported it sounded dodgy, especially with the witness account that the guy on the train was giving.

whiskeyman

It seems the Met are keeping quiet but those that are speaking in defence of them are saying that all the original info (big coat, he hurdled the barriers etc...) came from eyewitnesses so they were just quoting what happened - included Blair during the press conference that day.

Well, what about CO19 and surveillence team member accounts of what happened? These must have been treated as the true version, so to use public accounts of the incident over your own staff is crazy.
Ok, it may take time to gather the reports, but they would have known immediately he wasnt wearing a big coat and they could have issued a release to counter all the rumours.
If this is true, Blair (and whoever else was responsible for spinning the original info) has to go.
The whole thing just reeks of incompetence.

flogen

oh, please. Blair has survived much worse than this, it won't have any effect on him at all, no one will call for him to step down.

I'd be surprised, assuming this is all true, if anyone lost their job,even the policemen directly involved in the shooting.

MrJoeSoap

RTE Story here
RTE Audio here
BBC Story here

Shot numerous times for being late for a train. Have we really become so desensitized that something like this doesn't really shock any more? It'll blow over, nobody will take the blame, nobody will lose a job and we'll all forget about it.

Imagine all the information that hasn't been leaked, and is being kept in the dark , God forbid that we might know the truth for once.

toffeeman

If this leak is accurate then the whole pursuit as originally outlined seems to be a complete fabrication. Did these eye-witnesses just make this up?

Taken from BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4158832.stm

Initial account
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said after the shooting: "As I understand the situation the man was challenged and refused to obey police instructions."
One eyewitness said at the time that Mr Menezes had vaulted over the ticket barriers just inside the entrance to Stockwell station as he was being pursued.


Leaked evidence
CCTV footage is said to show the man walking at normal pace into the station, picking up a copy of a free newspaper and apparently passing through the barriers before descending the escalator to the platform and running to a train.
He boarded a Tube train, paused, looking left and right, and sat in a seat facing the platform.

edanto

It seems like some witnesses made stuff up and others were mistaken. Mark Whitby, whoever he is, must have been lying when he said this:

from South London Press , but the same quotes were everywhere
When the doors opened he saw Mr Menezes burst in with cops behind.
"He kind of tripped and fell and three plain-clothed policemen fell on top of him," said Mr Whitby, a 47-year-old surveyor from Brixton.
"Two of them pushed him to the ground then they unloaded about five shots from close range."

Because leaked evidence from toffeeman's link said:
The statement [from a police officer on the train] says Mr Menezes stood up and advanced towards the witness and armed police. He said he pushed the man back into his seat. It was only after he had restrained him that he heard a gun shot.

Then yesterday, the family came to London to get briefed by the investigation team and watch the videos. Afterwards, they said :
"The film showed that Jean did not have suspicious behaviour. For sure they lied to the family"

And they lied to the rest of the world. At this stage, I think the guys that shot him will probably face a judge and hopefully the shoot to kill policy will be revoked or at the least refined to make sure no more innocent people die.

whiskeyman

ITN are really pushing a campaign against (Ian) Blair at the moment.
Since they consider it their story (as they broke it), its almost like a crusade for them now to bring him down.
The evening news yesterday had at least 10 mins of this story as the headline and how he moved to stop the inquiry on the day of the shooting.
I cant see the officers who shot Mr Menezes coming into trouble - more likely someone higher up who ordered it.

monument

Well this guy missed on on getting shot, but if I was someone who 'fits the profile' I'd **** my self every time I fell into a met officer's sights...

Suspicious behaviour on the tube

David Mery
Thursday September 22, 2005
The Guardian

A London underground station was evacuated and part of a main east-west line closed in a security alert on Thursday, three weeks after suicide bombers killed 52 people on the transport network, police said. (Reuters)

This Reuters story was written while the police were detaining me in Southwark tube station and the bomb squad was checking my rucksack. When they were through, the two explosive specialists walked out of the tube station smiling and commenting: "Nice laptop." The officers offered apologies on behalf of the Metropolitan police. Then they arrested me.

...

They handcuff me, hands behind my back, and take my rucksack out of my sight. They explain that this is for my safety, and that they are acting under the authority of the Terrorism Act. I am told that I am being stopped and searched because:

· they found my behaviour suspicious from direct observation and then from watching me on the CCTV system;

· I went into the station without looking at the police officers at the entrance or by the gates;

· two other men entered the station at about the same time as me;

· I am wearing a jacket "too warm for the season";

· I am carrying a bulky rucksack, and kept my rucksack with me at all times;

· I looked at people coming on the platform;

· I played with my phone and then took a paper from inside my jacket.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1575532,00.html

RuggieBear

monument wrote:

Well this guy missed on on getting shot, but if I was someone who 'fits the profile' I'd **** my self every time I fell into a met officer's sights...

that's some scary shit