Ireland v Italy (will include score)

Kingp35

Ok lads first off I think everything Nial Quin said was right. The 4-3-3 formation simply does not work at all. Fact. We played it in an earlier friendly against Croatia and they were ripping us apart until Kerr changed back to our usual 4-4-2 and then we played the football we are capable of. I personally agree with Niall Quinn in that Kerr wanted to play that formation so that he would give nothing away to the French scouts who were in the crowd. I don't think they are that stupid though and they will know there is no way in hell we are gonna play that formation against them.

I was ashamed to be an Irish supporter watching that first half an hour. The defence was nothing short of diabolical, the whole lot of them bar JOS. The first goal was ridiculous. We let them win a header which Shay did brilliant to save but then what does Kibane try and do? He does this stupidlittle flick when he should have just lashed it. The ball trickles along to Pirlo, only one player, S.Reid, tried to close him down while the other 4 stood there watching as Pirlo lashed it in. A disgrace.

The second goal was again a mistake. What the hell was Finnan doing on that touchline. He gifted the ball to the Italians who played a pass through a chasm in our defence to Gillardino who had so much time he managed to have two shots on goal before anyone came near him. FFS have the defence ever heard of closing down and busting a gut to stop the forward. The Italian player running back was not offside. The new rules are a bit stupid but he was not offside. Countless other times the Italians broke in behind our defence and they should have been well clear before they got that second goal. It was diabolical.

Andy Reid took his goal well but the only reason he got the chance was because the Italian full-back tied himself in a knot and fell over himself allowing Reid to have the shot. It was an excellent finish but we certainly didn’t deserve it. I think we improved a lot when JOS went to central midfield. He put in some good tackles and got on the ball well but Italians still ran the midfield for the first half and Ireland just were not in the game at all.

Kerr must have gave them a rollicking at half time because we improved a great deal. The Italians still ruled the midfield for the start of the half by knocking the ball around and not letting ireland get near it. Those of you who said the Italians didn’t get any chances in the second half must have been watching a different game than I was. Iaquinta broke through twice and it was only some wayward finishing that stopped them scoring again.

However I must admit there was a huge improvement in our play in the second half. Duff was fantastic, and Kilbane really impressed me. Morrisson played very well up front by himself and he put in some very good work winning the ball and holding it up for team mates to some forward. We looked dangerous when we went at them. I think Morrossons goal should have stood as it was clearly kicked against his arm and he could do nothing about it. It was a very good finish as well. Elliott was a real live wire when he came on and I wish Kerr would have brought him on earlier. In fact I was hoping he would start the game. He had about 4 shots when he came and but for an excellent save from Roma he would have gotten his first goal for us. Perhaps we were a bit unlucky in the end not score but I dont think we deserved it after our first half performance. An honourable mention for Liam Miller who in my opinion should not even be in the squad because he is a terrible player. I really do not like him because he does nothing for the team at all.

To sum up out first half was diabolical and we should have gone in at half time at least 3-0 down. The second half was a big improvement but we were by no means playing to our true ability. Andy O' Brien played very well and he is a sure fire starter against the French. Carr had a much better game than Finnan so its very close as to who gets the nod there. Andy Reid must start. I thought he did very well both with his passing and his tracking back. Kilbane will play in the center with Roy. He did well other than that stupid flick he did for the Italians first goal. I think JOS will get the nod over Harte at left back because he is more defensively sound than Harte and Kerr has tried and tested him at this stage. The rest of the team pretty much picks itself.

If we play like we did in the first half we may as well not turn up against the French. We need to be a lot better defensively and our midfield has be a lot more combative and close down players quickly. We cant give the likes of Zidane time on the ball or they will destroy us. If we play like we did in the second half, in a 4-4-2 formation and keep it a lot better at the back we can get a result against the French. The vital thing is not to lose the game. If we draw and win the other two it will probably be good enough to get us through. I was disappointed with the first half but the second half gave me some confidence that we can do it.

Also I have to say both Duff and Shay Given were world class yesterday. Diff was simply outstanding.

Big Nelly

jubbly wrote:

Andy Ried is far from top shape. He isnt very mobile and he doesnt run around the pitch a lot. Hence the name Mr Blobby. He needs to stop eating all the pies and lose another few kilos. Dont get me wrong though he did well though, some great crosses and good goal too.

Im not even going to read your threads anymore because you have shown on this thread and a few other you havent a clue what your talking about.......

PHB

The 4-3-3 made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
First off, it only works if you wingers track back, which Duff did, Reid didn't.
Secondly it requires a holding midfielder, something that Holland is not. This left a huge hole in our midfield as Pirlo only had to contend with Holland, which wasn't particuarly hard for him.

When JOS came on two things happened.
Firstly we lost our main attack avenue, down the left side, where we were making real penetration for the first half of the match. I was very disappointed at that.
Secondly, we started to do better in midfield.
My conclusion would be if Keano had been there to play the holding role, then we could have kept the attack going down the left side and inturn got a couple more goals.

Miller really ****ing pissed me off last night. He tried to create everything himself, and twice, he could have passed the ball to Duff, who was literally screaming for it, and he didn't, tried to cross himself, and ****ed it up. Very very annoying.
For the france game I'd like to see the following formation:
4-4-2

Shay
Finnan-Cunningham-Dunne(if fit)-JOS
Reid-Keano-Kilbane-Duff
Keano-Clinto

Kingp35

I don’t think a Cunningham Dunne partnership would work well against the French. They can run about as fast as I can walk and against the likes of Henry we need somebody in there who has a small bit of pace at least. Andy O' Brien is no olympic sprinter but he is faster than the other two and he hasn’t put a foot wrong for Ireland this campaign and it would be very harsh on him to be dropped. He is getting first team football now too whereas he wasn’t at Newcastle. I think he should get the nod.

I agree with the rest of your team though.

jubbly

your entitled to your own opinion but I dont think Andy Reid looks like an athete. As far as Im concerned he can do with losing a few more pounds

jubbly

Big Nelly wrote:

Im not even going to read your threads anymore because you have shown on this thread and a few other you havent a clue what your talking about.......

Is Andy Reid a box to box player ? Do you ever see him tearing down the wing with the ball ?? Do you ever see him chasing after players putting in tackles ? No you dont, most of the time he is stationry with the ball picking players out.

redspider

I was at the game last night, and afterwards I watched the highlights and slow-mo's extensively.

Where to start? Well, first off, whether the formation is classed as 4-5-1 or more technically correct 4-1-4-1 or 4-3-3, it lined out as follows:

---

Given

---

Finnan - Dunne - Cunningham - O'Shea

---

S.Reid

---

A.Reid -- Holland -- Kilbane -- Duff ---

---

Morrison

---

ie: one lone striker and two wingers attempting to get the ball in.

I would have thought that a home-game friendly should have warranted putting on two finishers, unless of course Kerr was thinking that he wants to play 4-5-1 against France in a few weeks and seek the draw. If that is his thinking, then this was a test/practice of that formation. It proved not to be a successfu test in terms of scoreline, but maybe that was due to some of the players rather than the system itself.

WEAKNESSES
S.REID
Lets look at where there were weaknesses. I dont think that Stephen Reid is a suitable player for this holding role. In fact, I dont think he is good enough to be in the Irish starting 11 when the full squad is assembled. He was invisible for most of the time in terms of doing his job. Roy, who should be back for France, perhaps could do this role, but may noy have the legs for it, so better in combination with Kavanagh/Holland/Kilbane in a 4-4-2.

MORRISON
Morrison cant play the lone striker role. He just doesnt have the timing with his runs or the energy and speed. Not playing 1st team football may have had an effect on his fitness. Robbie would be able to play this role better, but both strikers play better in a 4-4-2 formation. Morrison has his faults, but in a two-man attack partnership he would be more productive.

DUNNE
Dunne just wasnt at the races and his marking was woeful at times. Perhaps he is not fit enough, but he lacked conentration, and being a friendly no-one gave him a bollicking for being asleep.


KILBANE
I dont rate Kilbane as a central midfielder. I know he has done well in there in the past, his effort at times cant be faulted, and he has done well there since being moved from the wing position both for Ireland and at Everton. But for a top-class international side, he is just not good enough in my opinion. Of course, we dont have many world-class players to choose from or an obvious replacement. So, we will have to make do perhaps. He can head at times, and tackle ok sometimes amd can go down the wing if need be, although dont expect him to get the ball in!

A.REID
I have to include Andy in the weaknesses section. His play has deteriorated over the last couple of seasons, he is not passing well nor linking well. At times, both himself and Duff were on the same side yet still couldnt combine to get a cross in and had to pass the ball back to Harte to do that. He tries hard but last night, most things didnt come off. I think for the French match we would do better to play without him.

MILLER
I think Kerr should not have him in the squad again until he is playing first-team football at a club that suits his level. He was woeful, and perhaps we should feel sorry for the lad who's career is in a bit of a tail-spin. Nothing went for him last night and he wasted a few possessions. I realise Kerr is trying to help the lad, but at the expense of Ireland. He should go down a level in England if he wants to re-ignite his career.


STRENGTHS
GIVEN
He had a very good game, and saved our skins on a couple of occasions. Perhaps the difference between a 2-1 and a 4-1, ala England and James. He could do nothing about the wonderful move that ended with Vieri hitting the cross-bar, the best move of the match. But for Ireland, Given, is a world-class player and we badly need him as Ireland's defence is far from perfect.

DUFF
He played well, very well, one of our few world-class players, no doubt about that. At times he tried to take on too much, but he was frustrated with the lack of understanding other players had for what he was trying to do, and on most occasions the wiley Italians out-numbered him and there was little support coming behind. With him in our side, it means that we always have the potential to unpick the defence of any international team.

HOLLAND-FINNAN-CUNNINGHAM-O'BRIEN-O'SHEA-HARTE-CARR
All these players did their jobs fairly well. Finnan was safe, although perhaps could have gone up the wing more.

Holland I thought did fairly well, and similar to Kilbane but a more natural central midfielder. He's not as good as he used to be.

Cunningham was good. He read the game well, and didnt allow himself to be caught out for pace.

O'Brien when he came on I thought was quite good and looked solid. Much better than Dunne last night I thought. Both of these players can have their off-days, so it will be interesting to see which one gets the nod for the French match.

O'Shea did fine at full-back, and also ok in the middle of the park, being better at tackling than some in the middle of the park. I still feel that his best position is as a CB, but we have enough of those so his utility prowess can be used.

Harte when he came on did well, and used his experience. However, his dead-ball and crossing touch wasnt there so opportunities went amiss.

Carr did ok, no more or less than Finnan, didnt do as much going forward perhaps as was needed on the wings, but with Reid, Duff and at times Kilbane heading out to the wings, and Morrison (where the hell was he going?), there was enough out there already, and not enough bodies in the box.

ELLIOT
When he came on, the team reverted to 4-4-2 for the last 15mins and were much better. Andy Reid was the player left out. Elliot though has a lot of rough edges, a lot. He tried and he got in good positions but he is far from the finished article. He may improve over time, he had a couple of chances that he could have put away last night, and if he did he would be a hero of Ireland today. But that is football. If Robbie is back, the front two pairing would be Morrison and Robbie. Morrison though needs to join a club where he gets first team football for Irekland to benefot from sharpness and finishing. It might be better for the lad if he went down a level in England.


But the main winner was the 4-4-2 formation. Only one winger, as in Duff, is needed in an Irish team. If Duff is injured, play Andy Reid. Duff can switch wings during the game when needed. Play Kilbane. Play Roy. Play O'Brien. Holland or Kavanagh, it doesnt matter. The team and formation for France that I would pick would be:

---

Given

---

Finnan - O'Brien - Cunningham - O'Shea
Kilbane - Holland - Roy K - Duff --
--- Morrison -- Robbie K

---

If Kerr picks a 4-5-1 formation for the French match, it will be asking for trouble and the French to come on to us. That would be a mistake in my opinion.

I agree with most of what you say Kingp35, except for the Andy Reid. Btw, I dont think his mr blobby name tag is warranted. A player of a stockier build, ala Given, Carr compared with say Nialler or O'Shea should not be criticised over something that has no effect on their play. Just judge him on what he does. Andy Reid was not that bad last night, but in a team that already has Duffer, what were we doing? We are not Chelsea, are we Brian?

redspider

Bateman

I thought Duff was our man of the match, he gave their defence a terrible time. There seems to be an aversion to giving him MOTM for every game, but he's the best on the pitch, and should get it for every game. Morrisson will start the France game, I would imagine, and if we have all our players fit we will get at least a point I feel. The defence will have to be better though, I agree with whoever said that playing that kind off offside game against France would be asking for trouble.

Pigman II

Call me crazy but I always enjoy losing friendlies. I feel they are too much of a comfort zone for us and defeat may be just the enema we need to kick the arse of this team into gear.

As such I'm fairly confident we'll get at least a draw v France next month.

Spider_Baby!

Duff was a killer last night, played brilliantly. But i would've gone for Shay as MOTM too, he saved our skin plenty of times.

Just out of curiosity, whats the story with our table? Who do we need to win/lose, how should it pan out for us?

jubbly

win all three and we top the group.

1 draw and 1 win against either france or switzerland plus beat cyprus and we get 2nd spot.

anything less, auf wiedersen deutchland.

Kingp35

Spider_Baby! wrote:

Duff was a killer last night, played brilliantly. But i would've gone for Shay as MOTM too, he saved our skin plenty of times.

Just out of curiosity, whats the story with our table? Who do we need to win/lose, how should it pan out for us?

If Ireland draw against the French and win against both Cyprus and Switzerland then we have a fantastic chance of topping the group because of the fact that Switzerland still have to play Israel and France so these teams will all take points off each other leaving Ireland more than likely group winners.

The remaining group 4 fixtures are as follows:

September 3, 2005
France v Faroe Islands
Switzerland v Israel

September 7, 2005
Cyprus v Switzerland
Faroe Islands v Israel
Ireland v France

October 8, 2005
Cyprus v Ireland
Israel v Faroe Islands
Switzerland v France

October 12, 2005
France v Cyprus
Ireland v Switzerland

The Group table as it stands now is as follows:

PLD W D L F A PTS
Ireland 7 3 4 0 11 4 13
Switzerland 6 3 3 0 13 4 12
Israel 7 2 5 0 10 8 11
France 6 2 4 0 5 1 10
Cyprus 7 1 1 5 7 12 4
Faroe Islands 7 0 1 6 3 20 1

Pal

If we lose to France, We will not finish in top 2

we must get a point.


Otherwise the Swiss and French can draw in October
to close us out.

Jivin Turkey

On the assumption that the still unbeaten Israel side dont have a look in.

eirebhoy

redspider - Finnan was caught out of position a few times last night. He didn't look as safe as he usually does.

I stand corrected but I thought Holland was supposed to play the holding role with S.Reid and Kilbane partnering and getting forward. Since Holland rarely gets a touch of the ball you wouldn't know what role he has.

Chucky the tree

you'd swear holland plays a game of hide and seak with the football.

eirebhoy

I put a compilation of Duff's 1st half (wasn't in the mood of doing the 2nd half) together as I'm going to start making a few comps:
http://s5.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=02Z9LW77YRSLN2KPKKAYBZAVRP

Its my first comp so be kind. Sorry about the music.

Pigman II

Heh, odd juxtaposition there EB! Duff and Charlton. Somehow I don't think duffer would have gotten away with a lot of that play if he'd been under BigJack!

Could have eliminated the replays imho but good comp there anyway!

redspider

eirebhoy wrote:

redspider - Finnan was caught out of position a few times last night. He didn't look as safe as he usually does.

I stand corrected but I thought Holland was supposed to play the holding role with S.Reid and Kilbane partnering and getting forward. Since Holland rarely gets a touch of the ball you wouldn't know what role he has.

In terms of Holland, yes, you are right, and obviously I didnt watch the match as closely and extensively as I should have! Too many beers later on perhaps, clouds the judgement and re-writes history!

Yes, Holland was playing the holding role for the 38 mins that he was on. Stephen Reid was to his right and Kilbane to his left in a very tight midfield formation with a width typically of 20 yards, and with Andy Reid and Duffer also back when Ireland not in posession.

When Holland went off with concussion, O'Shea filled the holding role.

Holland did ok though generally, although Pirlo was his man for the 1st goal as he went to sleep for a second when the ball came out. Perhaps I was over-critical of Stephen Reid, but I dont think we should be over-critical of Holland either. If we try and rate the midfield players of Holland, Kilbane and S.Reid, they are much of a muchness really. But in a team with Roy back, I dont think there is room for Stephen Reid.


I didnt analyse Finnan's game end-to-end, but from a quick snapshot he was asleep a bit at the start, and perhaps was not gee'd up for this game. But if we look forward to the French match, who else is there? I think that Finnan may have had a quite game, he didnt go that far forward and overlap, but there was no need to. He did well though when covering for Dunne and Cunningham.

In terms of Cunningham, I think he as most at fault perhaps for the 2nd goal. He went too far forward and didnt pick up the man closely enough, going for an offiside trap perhaps.

Its a game though that we dont need to over-analyse. Lets save our time for analysing the French match, and what went wrong or right. With the reports coming back that ZiZi had a fantastic game, its going to be a tough one, and even though the 4-5-1 system may not have worked so well against Italy, is it the best option for ensuring a draw against France? perhaps ..... I dont envy Kerr in his task in the slightest.

redspider

BaZmO*

eirebhoy wrote:

I put a compilation of Duff's 1st half (wasn't in the mood of doing the 2nd half) together as I'm going to start making a few comps:
http://s5.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=02Z9LW77YRSLN2KPKKAYBZAVRP

Its my first comp so be kind. Sorry about the music.

Nice compilation EB.

I was at the match the other night on the one thing that I came away with was the feeling that we over relied on Duff too much. Luckily enough for us, he actually does have the class to make things happen, but it just seemed like it was the only option at times on Wednesday night.

After watching the match last night on TV it wasn't that apparent but I did notice it on Wednesday night, there wasn't much movement off the ball. Typical play was pass to Duff and just stand there waiting for him to give it back. But I suppose, it was only a friendy and they were playing an unfamiliar system so there's no real point in being over critical.

B.

Big Nelly

BaZmO* wrote:

Nice compilation EB.

I was at the match the other night on the one thing that I came away with was the feeling that we over relied on Duff too much. Luckily enough for us, he actually does have the class to make things happen, but it just seemed like it was the only option at times on Wednesday night.

After watching the match last night on TV it wasn't that apparent but I did notice it on Wednesday night, there wasn't much movement off the ball. Typical play was pass to Duff and just stand there waiting for him to give it back. But I suppose, it was only a friendy and they were playing an unfamiliar system so there's no real point in being over critical.

B.

I think alot of this is to do with what Kerr wants the team to play like.....he wants the midfield to give the ball to Duff whenever they move forward....remember the game where he played 4-4-1-1 with Duff behind Keane and everything was channelled thru him....I think he was playing in similiar role on Wed night so the middle 3 kept pushing the ball onto him.......