Partition works - lets keep it that way.

Mighty_Mouse

I still struggle to understand the economic reasoning against a United Ireland. The north has good agricultural land, a large city, a port etc. I dont see why a united Ireland wouldnt mean more resources to generate wealth.

Anyways I heard Leitrim was not contributing a lot to our GDP lately. Will we cut it off? Let those Leitrim thicks swim for it. Sure its just their bad luck; and anyways cant they move to Galway like most people would do?

bonkey

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

How anybody can say Partition has worked for Ireland is beyond me.

...

Partition did not work for NI.

Heh.

Partition did not work for Northern Ireland, you say?
Partitioning has had some advantages (and its removal would be problematic) for the Republic of Ireland....as others have said?

So how can people say that partitioning has worked for Ireland?

Simple - they just talk about a different Ireland to those who believe it hasn't worked.

jc

Jesus Trash Can

Here we go - cite the Nazis. Does EVERY debate about the North have to come down to quoting spurious argument about the Third Reich? Just how is that example conducive to your argument? Ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

I am not and never have compared the occupation of this country to that of the third reich, if you looked at it a bit deeper instead of going off on one, you would understand the point I'm making is this, who's version of history do we choose to live with? The one that leaves it easier to do nothing despite injustices, (and I mean injustices against the entire community), or the one that demands the engagement of the imagination despite the difficult task ahead, looking at your reaction I can see the former will probably sit better with you. Pathetic.

Sand

The RoI took about 73 years to get to a position where it now has a booming economy.

Which had more to do with a Great Depression, a World War and a series of foolish protectionist economic polices and then of course the tax and spend idiocy until the nightmare that was the 80s forced the government to run a proper economy. It had very, very, very little to do with partition.

I still struggle to understand the economic reasoning against a United Ireland. The north has good agricultural land, a large city, a port etc. I dont see why a united Ireland wouldnt mean more resources to generate wealth.

Irish companies already have access to the Norths infrastructure, labour supply and markets via the EU. Removing the border would be just window dressing.

Jesus Trash Can

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

I still struggle to understand the economic reasoning against a United Ireland. The north has good agricultural land, a large city, a port etc. I dont see why a united Ireland wouldnt mean more resources to generate wealth.

Anyways I heard Leitrim was not contributing a lot to our GDP lately. Will we cut it off? Let those Leitrim thicks swim for it. Sure its just their bad luck; and anyways cant they move to Galway like most people would do?

Well said. To hell or to er, Tuam.

murphaph

Jesus Trash Can wrote:

Well said. To hell or to er, Tuam.

Well, I hear hell is warm this time of year

MT

Like many others here I too would agree entirely with the original OP. Both a united Ireland itself - and indeed the aim of unity – would have only negative consequences of the Republic’s society.

In short I think partition has worked wonderfully in insulating a fledgling democracy from the entrenched sectarianism and hatred prevalent in the North. Hatreds that have long since bordered on the psychotic and would have disastrously destabilised Ireland’s only real democracy. A large country such as Britain – politically, economically and emotionally detached from the North – could contain and manage the madness there in a way an all too involved south could never have done. I firmly believe that had the ‘troubles’ occurred within an island wide state, the poison would have contaminated the rest of the country and spread south. With an entire country embroiled physically and emotionally there might have been no end. Britain on the other hand had the size and the distance of mind to deal with the North’s societal collapse in a way that ensured it still remained standing at the end to put in place some form of ‘peace-process’.

Mighty Mouse wrote:

I still struggle to understand the economic reasoning against a United Ireland. The north has good agricultural land, a large city, a port etc. I dont see why a united Ireland wouldnt mean more resources to generate wealth.

With that attitude you’d have made a fine 18th colonialist. But tell me, should there be a united North American state on such grounds? Maybe George Bush should seek to annex Canada and Mexico for their, er… resources.

Isn’t funny how so many ‘Republicans’ can rave on about the integrity of the Irish landmass and how this invalidates the border and yet give support for the Basque separatist struggle in Spain? One rule for this island and another for the Iberian peninsula?

Flex

Like many others here I too would agree entirely with the original OP. Both a united Ireland itself - and indeed the aim of unity – would have only negative consequences of the Republic’s society.

How? The aim of Irelands society for the past 80 years has been to unite the country, and weve turned out alright. When reunification is occurs it will be because the majority of NI voted for it, how can that be negative? I realise reunification might not sit well with some people, but quite frankly, tough ****. If they hadnt insisted on forcing 420,000 Catholics to live in the new NI and then refused to cooperate with the Boundary Commission (but luckily for them their pals in London totally cheated us and decided not to fulfil their obligation with regards to partition) then they could possibly have found themselves in a situation where, instead of facing a Catholic majority in 40 years or so, they could have a strong majority. Youve made your beds, and you can lie in them.

With that attitude you’d have made a fine 18th colonialist. But tell me, should there be a united North American state on such grounds? Maybe George Bush should seek to annex Canada and Mexico for their, er… resources.

I would never support the wrongful expansion of Irelands borders at the expense of another country.

Isn’t funny how so many ‘Republicans’ can rave on about the integrity of the Irish landmass and how this invalidates the border and yet give support for the Basque separatist struggle in Spain? One rule for this island and another for the Iberian peninsula?

Iv never actually cited the Basques or others to support a UI like that. First off i think its silly, because when the country is reunited, the situation will be reversed.ie. those who had supported the Basques or whatever would find themselves in a situation needing to oppose them and so on. Besides those situations are different in so many ways to ours. Second, with all due respect to the Basques and Palestinians and so on... I really dont have a great deal of interest in what they do or how they cope in their struggles, because im more interested in Irelands and the Irish peoples. Third, I dont feel the need to validate Irish Republicanism/Nationalism by making sure someone else in some other place has similar aspirations.

Dave!

Flex wrote:

I would never support the wrongful expansion of Irelands borders at the expense of another country.

The British, on the other hand...

A Dub in Glasgo

DaveMcG wrote:

The British, on the other hand...

...... would

Dave!

lol, yes; would, have done, and will do again!

murphaph

Flex wrote:

I would never support the wrongful expansion of Irelands borders at the expense of another country.

DaveMcG wrote:

The British, on the other hand...

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

...... would

I think the british government would actually like to expand Ireland's borders at the expense of Ireland (and save herself a considerble few bob in the process).

catholicireland

The north is the property of Ireland, the British are just a bunch of invading bas***ds! They are the most hated people on earth!

CerebralCortex

catholicireland wrote:

The north is the property of Ireland, the British are just a bunch of invading bas***ds! They are the most hated people on earth!

You can see that catholicireland is going to have a fruitfull future in uniting the people of this world torn apart by pride and nationalism.

rsynnott

catholicireland wrote:

The north is the property of Ireland, the British are just a bunch of invading bas***ds! They are the most hated people on earth!

Really? Most hated people on Earth? You've done a poll, then? (And IMO, your own namesake has done more harm to this country than England could ever have imagined doing).

Dave!

CerebralCortex wrote:

You can see that catholicireland is going to have a fruitfull future in uniting the people of this world torn apart by pride and nationalism.

lmao

I agree with his sentiment, I guess, although I'm more careful with my words, lol.

CerebralCortex

rsynnott wrote:

Really? Most hated people on Earth? You've done a poll, then? (And IMO, your own namesake has done more harm to this country than England could ever have imagined doing).

I agree your onto something there.

oscarBravo

Flex wrote:

I realise partition might not sit well with some people, but quite frankly, tough ****.

I wonder if the transposition of a single word will help you understand how unreasonable your position looks from the outside?

Dave!

Jesus Trash Can wrote:

Here we go - cite the Nazis. Does EVERY debate about the North have to come down to quoting spurious argument about the Third Reich? Just how is that example conducive to your argument? Ridiculous.

Godwin's Law, mate, lol

murphaph

catholicireland wrote:

The north is the property of Ireland

You dodn't think Northern Ireland belongs to the Northern Irish?

catholicireland wrote:

..the British are just a bunch of invading bas***ds! They are the most hated people on earth!

All 60 million of 'em :rolleyes:

The rabid 'need' for a united Ireland displays a deep felt inadequacy in an individual or if that individual is from Ireland, in how that individual perceives his country.

Dave!

I think it displays a deep felt pride in an individual, for their country, and a longing to undo the injustice of previous generations. It makes me sick that there's still English rule on our island, as they have no right to it.

rsynnott

The point you're missing is that the majority of the people in NI don't WANT to be part of Ireland. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

And why on EARTH would you feel proud of this country? :S

Dave!

rsynnott wrote:

The point you're missing is that the majority of the people in NI don't WANT to be part of Ireland. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

I don't really care... If the majority of the people in the Republic want the North, then bearing in mind the land was actually stolen from them, and those who oppose to getting it back were placed there by those very thieves, I think it should be given back. And you also have to take into account that it's pretty close in the North, in terms of Republican/Unionist. I know it's simplistic and inaccurate, but Catholics are about 40%, Protestants about 45%(15% not stated), so if you take that to mean anything, there's even more reason why it should be given back.

The country is getting more Republican, as far as I can see. Most of my friends and generation are Republican, or can at least acknowledge the injustice that needs to be reversed.

I'd like to see an opinion poll done in the Republic to see how the population feel... I don't think there's been one done, or if there has, not for decades. There hasn't even been one done in the North since the 70's, and that wasn't exactly accurate as most of the Republicans abstained from voting in it.

rsynnott wrote:

And why on EARTH would you feel proud of this country? :S

I guess I'm just crazy...

I want the North back, I don't care how much trouble it causes the economy. I live in the Republic, I know our hospitals are sh*t, and that we need the money, but we can sacrifice a little money and energy for the sake of justice, for f*ck sake. Who knows, maybe the government of the Republic will handle the North better than Tony Blair?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

oscarBravo

DaveMcG wrote:

...the majority of the people in the Republic want the North... bearing in mind the land was actually stolen from them...

It wasn't stolen from me, and I somehow doubt it was stolen from any of your alleged majority either.

rsynnott

Those people have been there for a very long time. It's their home as much as anyone else's. They have a right to participate in its future.

hill16

Any person in Ireland who believes Britain has a right to be here can not call himself a true Irshman.

murphaph

DaveMcG wrote:

I think it displays a deep felt pride in an individual, for their country, and a longing to undo the injustice of previous generations. It makes me sick that there's still English rule on our island, as they have no right to it.

There wouldn't be 'english' rule on our island if the twats up north could work together in devolved government, but they seem incapable of it, unlike Scotland and to a lesser extent, Wales!

mike65

DaveMcG wrote:

I don't really care... If the majority of the people in the Republic want the North, then bearing in mind the land was actually stolen from them, and those who oppose to getting it back were placed there by those very thieves, I think it should be given back.

I wonder how far that logic should be taken? Hand back the United States and Canada to various Indian tribes, return New Zeland to the Maorie and so on...

DaveMcG wrote:

I'd like to see an opinion poll done in the Republic to see how the population feel... I don't think there's been one done, or if there has, not for decades. There hasn't even been one done in the North since the 70's, and that wasn't exactly accurate as most of the Republicans abstained from voting in it.

Some figures for you from ESRI via slugger O toole

In the North, 65 per cent of Catholics want a united Ireland. But 21.1 per cent believe it should remain in the UK, with 11.2 per cent favouring an independent Northern Ireland.

More Catholics in the South favour an independent Northern Ireland than do Protestants in the South. Where Catholics are concerned, the figure is almost a third, at 32.5 per cent, while for southern Protestants it is less than a quarter, at 23.3 per cent.

and most interesting

Among southern Catholics, 54.9 per cent favour a united Ireland, while 9.1 per cent believe the North should remain in the UK. Among Protestants in the South 41.9 per cent favour a united Ireland, with 23.3 per cent believing the North should remain in the UK.

Mike.

murphaph

DaveMcG wrote:

I don't really care... If the majority of the people in the Republic want the North, then bearing in mind the land was actually stolen from them, and those who oppose to getting it back were placed there by those very thieves, I think it should be given back. And you also have to take into account that it's pretty close in the North, in terms of Republican/Unionist. I know it's simplistic and inaccurate, but Catholics are about 40%, Protestants about 45%(15% not stated), so if you take that to mean anything, there's even more reason why it should be given back.

First of all, Germany believed that the Sudetenland had been stolen from it, so they annexed Czechoslovakia, was that acceptable to you?
Secondly I, like OscarBravo do not believe anything has been stolen from me, so speak for yourself and not an entire nation. Thirdly, simplistic religious divides mean zip-plenty of NI catholics would not vote to sever the union and to the same end, a small minority of protestants would vote to end the union. Most people up north know what side their bread's buttered on however and would vote NO. Fourthly, have you any concept of democracy? It's got nowt to do with 'giving it back' and all to do with a decision of the majority of the people of NI, not GB or the RoI to decide!!! They live there ffs.

DaveMcG wrote:

I'd like to see an opinion poll done in the Republic to see how the population feel... I don't think there's been one done, or if there has, not for decades. There hasn't even been one done in the North since the 70's, and that wasn't exactly accurate as most of the Republicans abstained from voting in it.

An opinion poll is virtually worthless. Unless it's a secret ballot whereby the result means something (ie a real referendum) and the people are made fully aware of the expected increase in taxation and decrease in social services they could be likely to expect following irish unity before they cast their secret votes.

DaveMcG wrote:

I guess I'm just crazy...

You said it.

DaveMcG wrote:

I want the North back, I don't care how much trouble it causes the economy

And here we have it folks. The real sentiment of rabid republicanism on this island. To hell with everything we've achieved in 80 odd years for the sake of some land and a people who's majority do not wish a united Ireland. Do you pay tax dave, do you have a mortgage? Will you mind when the economy goes really tits up and your house is repossessed and you're living under a bridge somewhere so long as we 'have' the six counties? Pathetic really.