Irish Times Poll: Are girls more intelligent than boys?

Sleipnir

Since when is the leaving cert a measure of intelligence?

Exams measure you're ability to do exams, they are not how we separate the intelligent from the not-so intelligent.

This kind of crap really annoys me and the Irish Times should know better.

grimloch

Since when is the leaving cert a measure of intelligence?

Well it isn't really.

To be honest I'm surprised at the Irish times. They do know better.

Sounds like something the tabloids would cook up.

thejovialhost

The L.C. is just one big memory test.

Basq

Hasn't that oh-so-hilarious slogan "Boys Are Stupid... Throw Rocks At Them" taught us nothing?!

tribulus

girls do seem to be more motivated or focused for exams iv'e found. However any girls i knew that did very well in their leaving cert did nothing else outside of school - no sports, past times etc. basically just school school school- maybe that's a trend in general between boys/girls and a possible factor for better exam grades... then again they might just be smarter

grimloch

tribulus wrote:

girls do seem to be more motivated or focused for exams iv'e found. However any girls i knew that did very well in their leaving cert did nothing else outside of school - no sports, past times etc. basically just school school school- maybe that's a trend in general between boys/girls and a possible factor for better exam grades... then again they might just be smarter

It seems that for all the wisdom of Irish Times they fail to see than "smarter" and "work harder" are not one and the same.

dublinguy2004

grimloch wrote:

It seems that for all the wisdom of Irish Times they fail to see than "smarter" and "work harder" are not one and the same.

Boys earn more than girls. There's way more jobs for the boys than girls who are more likely to go off on maternity leave. Once girls have decided to have babies, that's it. Productivity and drive goes out the window and all they care about is their kids.

Cabaal

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Boys earn more than girls. There's way more jobs for the boys than girls who are more likely to go off on maternity leave. Once girls have decided to have babies, that's it. Productivity and drive goes out the window and all they care about is their kids.

Ah in fairness you can not paint all girls with the same brush!,
By your logic women + baby = does not care about her career anymore

You have alot to learn matey....
:rolleyes:

nobodythere

No, this is untrue. Girls are more vulnerable and susceptable to external pressures that dictate the importance of the exams. Guys know better than girls that it's just not that fúcking important.

*Angel*

tribulus wrote:

girls do seem to be more motivated or focused for exams iv'e found. However any girls i knew that did very well in their leaving cert did nothing else outside of school - no sports, past times etc. basically just school school school- maybe that's a trend in general between boys/girls and a possible factor for better exam grades... then again they might just be smarter

Hah I know loads of guys who never did sport after school, you can't just say it's the girls... I'm hurt by this! I did hockey and I did pretty good.

Unfortunately it's true that careers can be harder to succeed in for women due to maternity leave. Life's a bitch, end of.

the smiley one

*Ahem* In MY year the girls far out-performed the boys...and most of the girls who got the top marks were really involved with stuff like drama, sport, music, debating etc. during 6th year. There were a few who gave up their whole life for the year...but there were also the boys who did that, and just didn't get the results.

I'm sensing bitterness....

michaelanthony

A Woman's job is to have children.

tribulus

i just meant that in my own experience - not indicative of everyone elses - i found that the girls i knew who scored high focused entirely on the leaving cert and nothing else, where guys i knew that also did well still played football/rugby etc. and did their usual stuff.

angeldelight

I think it's just to do with the difference in maturity at age 17/18. Going on when I did my LC (2004), right up to the end of the school year when the teachers were doing revision with us, not giving us homework but getting us to do exam questions and see what problems we came up with, the guys just thought yay no homework and went out and played football. The majority of the girls realised that past exam questions were going to be very very helpful and did revise, ask the teachers questions etc. That's just one example but there were others, e.g. the guys thinking it was hilarious to fail the mocks etc having competitions to see who got the lowest...

the smiley one

I'm just going to ignore the spam....

Well as I said the girls did really well in my school. LIke, for example 3 of us in our year got 590 points.I did the normal work I usually do (work for class tests and then CRAM!!!) and I captained the debating team, played piano and swam throughout the year. The other two girls, granted, did a lot more study than I did but also excersised regularly, and one of them is an amazing singer who kept up all her music classes, gigs and stuff. Another friend of mine got 560 and did the school play, her gold medal speech and drama exam, piano, cello, and swam throughout the year. Oh and did I mention she got 560.
You (not personally) cannot just make sweeping statements and then back it up with utter ****e like "well all girls are swots"....cuz its utter ****e

tribulus

the smiley one wrote:

I'm just going to ignore the spam....

Well as I said the girls did really well in my school. LIke, for example 3 of us in our year got 590 points.I did the normal work I usually do (work for class tests and then CRAM!!!) and I captained the debating team, played piano and swam throughout the year. The other two girls, granted, did a lot more study than I did but also excersised regularly, and one of them is an amazing singer who kept up all her music classes, gigs and stuff. Another friend of mine got 560 and did the school play, her gold medal speech and drama exam, piano, cello, and swam throughout the year. Oh and did I mention she got 560.
You (not personally) cannot just make sweeping statements and then back it up with utter ****e like "well all girls are swots"....cuz its utter ****e

this was your experience of it, as was mine above. There are so many factors that can influence people during exam times, that it would be very hard to quantify even for one particular year, whether boys are smarter than girls or vica-versa.

newgrange

The style of questions (and answers required) in the Irish exam system suits how girls like to answer questions. Simple as that. Set a test girls will do better on, and they will do better on it. It's not a great mystery.

The State Examinations Commission are aware of this and are currently looking at ways to counteract the bias.

There are also the social factors. Boys want to do well, but often do not want to be seen as 'swots', though at the very high end of achievement this is not as much a problem. There will be research published shortly (by the NCCA) covering a cohort of students in their move from primary to secondary school, and as they move up through second-level that expands on these points.

It's not a matter of 'smarter' than, but then, the examinations system does not measure how smart anyone is.

dudara

I think that there is no doubt that teenage females are better at applying themselves to tasks like the leaving cert than their male counterparts.

However, this has nothing to do with intelligence. The Leaving Cert is a system that rewards hard work and dedication and women are good at that. I think I read somewhere once that once people get to college, this imbalance is pretty much levelled out. It would be interesting if anyone could prove or disprove this for me.

abercrombie

personally i see the leaving certificate as like a competition..or an ongoing match!! all these students in ireland are competing for their place on a specific course and the higher the points they can get, the more likely they will beat their fellow competetors!! For the students who REALLY want their course...they know that they have to out-do everyone else and they know what they have to do to make that happen!

the smiley one

tribulus wrote:

this was your experience of it, as was mine above. There are so many factors that can influence people during exam times, that it would be very hard to quantify even for one particular year, whether boys are smarter than girls or vica-versa.

I totally agree. I also don't think that the LC is a measure of intelligence at all, but intelligence does help.... :rolleyes:. I don't think a definitive conclusion can be reached logically on this topic; however I would agree with someone who said (I think) about girls being more mature than boys at that age, therefore girls find it easier to apply themselves.

Basically the Times needed to fill column space.

EamonnKeane

I think it's just to do with the difference in maturity at age 17/18. Going on when I did my LC (2004), right up to the end of the school year when the teachers were doing revision with us, not giving us homework but getting us to do exam questions and see what problems we came up with, the guys just thought yay no homework and went out and played football.

So apparently just wanting to enjoy an evening free of work is "immature"?

No, this is untrue. Girls are more vulnerable and susceptable to external pressures that dictate the importance of the exams. Guys know better than girls that it's just not that fúcking important.

Yes, because in our society a woman does no wrong. She is not responsible for her actions. A pregnant 12-year-old was made to have sex by peer pressure and the media. A bulimic shoves her fingers down her gullet three times a day because of glossy magazines. A East European hooker was forced into the job by evil men who exploit her, it has nothing to do with her being able to make €200 an hour turning tricks for Irishmen compared to €40 back in Latvia.

But opinions like these are everywhere. A woman who cheats on her husband does it because he doesn't pay her attention. A man who cheats on his wife is an evil sex-crazed pig. A young man who leaves his girlfriend when she is pregnant is the Devil incarnate. A young woman who abandons her baby at a bus stop or gives him/her up for adoption is doing it because she is too young to cope and everyone understands. Ads depicting naked/scantily clad women are degrading, but ads with naked men aren't, even that skin cream ad that finishes with a man kneeling down and kissing a pregnant women's stomach.

However, this has nothing to do with intelligence. The Leaving Cert is a system that rewards hard work and dedication and women are good at that.

Dear Lord! And men aren't? I suppose it's a difference in learning abilities: tests have shown men learn best through "active" learning (doing things, making things, experimentation etc.) whereas women do better through "passive" learning (e.g. the standard classroom situation)

Boys earn more than girls. There's way more jobs for the boys than girls who are more likely to go off on maternity leave. Once girls have decided to have babies, that's it. Productivity and drive goes out the window and all they care about is their kids.

This is another baffling common opinion: namely, that girls do better than lads in the LC because they're smarter, but when men do better career-wise than women it's because of sexism. When there are more male TDs than female, it's becasue of sexism, not because, say, there are more male candidates and more male party members? Or that for a million years men have generally taken leadership in "external" matters (e.g. dealings with other tribes/kingdoms/countries) whereas women take the leadership in "internal" matters (e.g. the home)
As for "Productivity and drive [go] out the window and all [new mothers] care about is their kids", first off, let me say show me a person who cares about their career more than their kids and I'll shoot them. Also, paternity leave has been introduced for new fathers who want to spend time with their new kids.

Lastly, the common assumption that girls beat boys at everything except construction, engineering and tech drawing. This just isn't true. Although the papers say that something like 80% of girls who took Higher Level maths got a C3 or better, compared to 78% of boys, this obscures the fact that 4 times as many boys that girls take Higher Level maths. The same gose for biology, physics, chemistry etc. Higher percentage of girls get C3 or better, but far more boys take it. This just confirms what mental exams have shown: men, in general tend to be better than women at logical subjects (science, maths, business) whereas women, in general tend to be better than men at artistic and linguistic subjects (English, Irish, foreign languages, art).

personally i see the leaving certificate as like a competition..or an ongoing match!! all these students in ireland are competing for their place on a specific course and the higher the points they can get, the more likely they will beat their fellow competetors!! For the students who REALLY want their course...they know that they have to out-do everyone else and they know what they have to do to make that happen!

Unfortunately that is what it is: our doctors, teachers, lawyers, nurses, engineers, businesspeople, etc. of the future are chosen via a ridiculous competition that has very little relevance to their chosen field and will teach them virtually no useful skills. It disturbs me that you seem so pleased by this.

angeldelight

EamonnKeane wrote:

So apparently just wanting to enjoy an evening free of work is "immature"?

No not at all. Doing it every night in the 3 months leading up to the Leaving Cert indicates to me anyway that they lack a certain amount of cop on. I'm not suggesting every girl in my classes went home and studied every night but we certainly did more work than the guys and the results showed it.

Yes I agree with you that more guys take Physics. In my higher level Physics class there were 4 girls and 23 guys. The girls got an A1 and 3 A2s between us. Of the 23 guys two got an A2 and three failed. The rest were in between. We had an excellent teacher who came in early, went home late, corrected as much extra work as we wanted, explained things so they were crystal clear yet the guys were too immature to bother asking her about stuff they weren't sure of cause they might have to stay behind for an extra 10 minutes after school and miss out on going out for as long with friends. This isn't just me suggesting why, I asked some of them at different times and that was the type of response I was getting.


And on another note, how is a guy kissing a pregnant woman's stomach degrading? May not be your cup of tea but it's hardly comparable to some of the other things you mentioned!!

abercrombie

basically this thread has turned into a battle of the sexes...next you'll be going on about who's stronger and going into the whole body and mental thing!!!

EamonnKeanne is right ya no...it is disturbing to know that Ireland's future leaders, doctors, teachers, lawyers, nurses, engineers, businesspeople etc are chosen based on their results on an exam with no relevance to their field whatsoever!! Exams only show you how well you get on in exams and cope with the pressure! They tell nothing about your IQ or if u faint at the sight of blood (medicine) or if you can argue a point (law) or if you have patience (teacher) or a way with kids!

AARRRGH

In Ireland, girls do better in school, guys do better in university.

It's just about priorities/focus etc. It has nothing to do with "intelligence".

Kate_17

How is the LC "just a memory test"? Granted, there's a lot of memorising but you need to be intelligent at the end of the day to get into the top bracket of marks. People can memorise loads but to get a high points course you need intelligence too. I think labelling it a "memory test" and nothing more is in fact quite insulting to intelligent people who worked hard.

AARRRGH

Kate_17 wrote:

How is the LC "just a memory test"? Granted, there's a lot of memorising but you need to be intelligent at the end of the day to get into the top bracket of marks. People can memorise loads but to get a high points course you need intelligence too. I think labelling it a "memory test" and nothing more is in fact quite insulting to intelligent people who worked hard.

Not true. I have done -

Leaving Cert
Computer Science Degree
Math Degree
...and now I'm about to set up a business.

Leaving Cert IS just a memory test.
Computer Science required some brain.
Maths required a lot of brain.
Running a business requires a lot lot of brain.

Really, the Leaving Cert is the slug of brain activity.

JC 2K3

No offense to any girls but has anyone noticed that generally girls tend to be less individual than guys. Not that all guys are amazingly individual or anything but because of all this testosterone etc rushing around our bodies we have an urge to compete, to win, to be different and only follow what we believe to be true. This drive is far less than girls, who tend to accept the fact that the only way they're going to do well in life is to study hard and do well in the leaving. Guys on the other hand are more likely to take risks and less likely to feel guilty about having fun when they should be studying etc. The truth is that a lot of the time guys at this age are convinced that they are always right, while girls are more accepting of other people's opinions. Of course everyone is different, but talking in extremes, guys are more driven to be themselves during their teenage years and if they want to study they will, if they don't they won't force themselves to, girls on the other hand have less of an individual drive to do things and because so much emphasis is put on the leaving they think that they have to do well in the leaving and will on average study more than guys.

hmm I waffled on a bit above, if it's confusing think of it this way, basically, because of the hormones in guys bodies during puberty, which can last until they're 18 and beyond they have more of an urge to compete, if a teacher says "You have to study and do well in your leaving" a guy is more likely to think, "You can't tell me what to do, I'll study if I want" whilst a girl would probably think, "Ok, the teacher is older and more knowledgeable than me, I have to take their advice". Guys are more immature? You could describe it that way I guess, but that really is tarring every guy with the same brush, some guys have the drive to compete and win, but are intelligent enough to know that if they listen to their teachers and study hard they will come out on top

It all evens out in college when hormones settle down though.

the smiley one

JC 2K3 wrote:

... because of all this testosterone etc rushing around our bodies we have an urge to compete, to win...

Hold on a second. Both Abercrombie and EamonnKeane have put forward the fact that the LC is just one big competition....so you are telling me that this "urge" to win and compete by-passes the LC...?

JC 2K3 wrote:

This drive is far less than girls, who tend to accept the fact that the only way they're going to do well in life is to study hard and do well in the leaving.

That's an incredibly sweeping and misguided statement. I know plenty of extremely competitive girls (including me!), and also you are portraying girls as stupid, short-sighted beings who have no common sense. come on!!!

JC 2K3 wrote:

The truth is that a lot of the time guys at this age are convinced that they are always right, while girls are more accepting of other people's opinions.

And that's not immaturity on the guys part?

JC 2K3 wrote:

Of course everyone is different, but talking in extremes, guys are more driven to be themselves during their teenage years and if they want to study they will, if they don't they won't force themselves to, girls on the other hand have less of an individual drive to do things and because so much emphasis is put on the leaving they think that they have to do well in the leaving and will on average study more than guys.

now that, is a load of bollocks. You are basically just making excuses for lazy guys and chastising driven girls who know what they have to do to get the course that they want in college.

JC 2K3 wrote:

hmm I waffled on a bit above, if it's confusing think of it this way, basically, because of the hormones in guys bodies during puberty, which can last until they're 18 and beyond they have more of an urge to compete, if a teacher says "You have to study and do well in your leaving" a guy is more likely to think, "You can't tell me what to do, I'll study if I want" whilst a girl would probably think, "Ok, the teacher is older and more knowledgeable than me, I have to take their advice". Guys are more immature? You could describe it that way I guess, but that really is tarring every guy with the same brush, some guys have the drive to compete and win, but are intelligent enough to know that if they listen to their teachers and study hard they will come out on top

again with the competing...
Also you are implying that by not applying themsleves to study or whatever they are asserting their manliness and "competing". With what exactly?

thejovialhost

Kate_17 wrote:

How is the LC "just a memory test"? Granted, there's a lot of memorising but you need to be intelligent at the end of the day to get into the top bracket of marks. People can memorise loads but to get a high points course you need intelligence too. I think labelling it a "memory test" and nothing more is in fact quite insulting to intelligent people who worked hard.

Its no insult just cold hard fact.its regurgitation of things you will nerer use again, INTELLIGENT people realise its all about memory and apply themselves that why they do better
Intelligence infact has nothing to do with it-you could have the best mind in the world but if you dont answer what they want you...FAIL. Stupid system i know-it awards those who can slog away mindlessly for hours not thinking about the material merly reproducing the textbook

SparkyLarks

No there not.

Girls do better in the leving cert but the leaving cert is more suited to girls.
That said the leaving cert is a crap system of examining understanding knowledge.

The LC examins what you can remember, not what you understand.

How do you measure intelligance, yes understanding fermat's last theorm takes intelligance but writing a song takes another form of intellignace, being able to catch a rugby ball and run a pace through a bunch of defenders takes another form of intelligance.

The most worring aspect of the article is how tredialy the media is to say, look girls are better than boys( when every rational person knows that the two sexes are diferent and neither can be delclared better).

The media now seams to be constantly pushing an idea that women are better than men. that men are stupid. and noone is complaining about this.

Imagine the outrage if the atricle read. Boys are more intelligant than girls.

chickens

I read the article with interest in the irish times and I noticed a similar one in the irish independant, one thing that shocked me greatly was the response to the news that girls had done better. Where I had expected congratulations or simple talk for need to fill up space there was critism not of the boy but of the exam. Now this may be my view but ireland is a well educated, forward country, the leaving cert has worked well for this, and I don't see why that fact that igrls do better is a problem.

No-one is born knowing, so it must be that girls simple have manage to learn the material. As for the maturity argument, I find it often easy to spot the different attitude even on this forum, a different attitude wil always have a different outcome, it is my understanding that boys will eventually mature to the stage where they shall study. would it not be than that they could take the exam and be fine? if that was the case then it is hardly the exams fault, more the hormones. would it be fair to make the exam harded for the girls? to change one of the best education systems in the world?

I think that this is a silly argument, it is unfortunate that the boys do worse, but I think that is all it is. it is often stated that the exam is one of the best so to change i seems pointless, and I doubt that many bys would enjoy or agree to an extra 2 years in school waiting to mature.

I must say I was suprised by this article and by the reaction, I think it is very strange.