University status WIT

propercharlie

Just wondered what the general opinion was regarding the possibility of WIT obtaining uni status at some stage and whether it would be deserved?

What needs to be improved and what work need to be done to achieve this?

angry_fox

The whole place needs to improved to be honest.
In one computer room last year they left a bucket to collect water that was leaking through the roof(they sometimes used a bin).
They are not providing proper IT facilities for students, D01 is a digrace, normally they are about 12 to 15 pc broken at any one time (Theres 30 in the room). The roof near the Well Shop collapsed earlier in the summer, and the whole place got flooded.
Theres just so much crap students have to put with. Place shouldint even be called an "Institute of Technology"
They have been carrying out a lot of repairs over the summer but i dont think it will make much of a difference.........

propercharlie

Good points. What about the standard of the courses?

angry_fox

Multimedia Applications was a good course but was really affected by the poor state of the computer rooms, some of the lectures couldn’t even teach classes because equipment kept failing. Can’t believe how much sh*t the lectures but up with, they can’t even do there jobs properly because of the total lack of support from the people in charge. Multimedia students missed out on a lot because we were not provided with the proper facilities and the college didn’t even care. They made so many promises and broke them all; we didn’t even have a DVD RW. Was soul destroying stuff trying to complete projects when nothing was working…

Heres another thread on it

propercharlie

Was there ever any evidence of courses being made easier just to allow people to continue due to a low first year intake? Its just that I've seen evidence of a drop in standards in some of the sciences. Everything and anything is done to facilitate progression, deserved or otherwise.

angry_fox

I dont no to be honest, if you didint meet a deadline you got 25% off your final mark or sometimes you were just given a mark of 40%.

propercharlie

Yeah thats an example of the totally arbitrary decisions made by the lecturers. Make it up as you go along. There is no traceability.

angry_fox

propercharlie wrote:

t I've seen evidence of a drop in standards in some of the sciences.

Which ones and what evidence?

angry_fox

propercharlie wrote:

I've seen evidence of a drop in standards in some of the sciences.

Have you gone to the college authorities about this? What Science courses?

merlante

propercharlie wrote:

Just wondered what the general opinion was regarding the possibility of WIT obtaining uni status at some stage and whether it would be deserved?

What needs to be improved and what work need to be done to achieve this?

Lads, can we clear up one thing, once and for all. People seem to think that you become the best IT you can be and then, if you're good enough, you get upgraded to a university. That is total bollox. The government decides on the basis of population and lobbying whether a region needs a university or not. If they reckon it does, then it gets a university regardless of how good or bad and institutions that are there already are. IT's have nothing to do with universities anyway, never has an IT become a university. Although it is the most likely way that Waterford will get a university.

Also, I don't care what people say about the standards in WIT. I've been around a few universities in my time and I can tell you that all these problems exist everywhere. Printers breaking down, not enough paper, not enough computers. You could be talking about any third level institution in the country. The only difference is that in other institutions people have a little thing called pride, and when they tell other people about their college, they ignore the little things and extoll its good points.

But naturally, because this is Waterford, everybody cribs and whines to people *outside* Waterford on *public* forums. God forbid anyone would get a decent impression of Waterford or WIT.

And this business of "deserving" this that and that other thing really cracks me up about Waterford. Did Galway *deserve* a university in the 19th century; did Maynooth *deserve* a university in the 90's? What does *deserve* have to do with it. You lobby for things as hard as you can, and if the demographics make sense, and your lobbying succeeds, you get them. Nothing is ever deserved or not deserved in this country: things are merely gotten, or not gotten.

Waterford needs a university because it is a city (the only one without a university) and because it is the capital of the third largest region in the country, i.e. the south east. It would have had a university years ago if people weren't so worried about whether they *really* deserved it or not.

Waterford is the laughing stock of the country, we are so naive when it comes to looking for services. Only with the radiotherapy, did Waterford show some teeth.

Marcopolo85

merlante wrote:

Lads, can we clear up one thing, once and for all. People seem to think that you become the best IT you can be and then, if you're good enough, you get upgraded to a university. That is total bollox. The government decides on the basis of population and lobbying whether a region needs a university or not. If they reckon it does, then it gets a university regardless of how good or bad and institutions that are there already are. IT's have nothing to do with universities anyway, never has an IT become a university. Although it is the most likely way that Waterford will get a university.

Also, I don't care what people say about the standards in WIT. I've been around a few universities in my time and I can tell you that all these problems exist everywhere. Printers breaking down, not enough paper, not enough computers. You could be talking about any third level institution in the country. The only difference is that in other institutions people have a little thing called pride, and when they tell other people about their college, they ignore the little things and extoll its good points.

But naturally, because this is Waterford, everybody cribs and whines to people *outside* Waterford on *public* forums. God forbid anyone would get a decent impression of Waterford or WIT.

And this business of "deserving" this that and that other thing really cracks me up about Waterford. Did Galway *deserve* a university in the 19th century; did Maynooth *deserve* a university in the 90's? What does *deserve* have to do with it. You lobby for things as hard as you can, and if the demographics make sense, and your lobbying succeeds, you get them. Nothing is ever deserved or not deserved in this country: things are merely gotten, or not gotten.

Waterford needs a university because it is a city (the only one without a university) and because it is the capital of the third largest region in the country, i.e. the south east. It would have had a university years ago if people weren't so worried about whether they *really* deserved it or not.

Waterford is the laughing stock of the country, we are so naive when it comes to looking for services. Only with the radiotherapy, did Waterford show some teeth.

Well said.

Andf even if we DO get a uni, it will be called the 'South Eastern' university!! Yes you can have DCU, LU, UCG, and UCG. We will be the only one of the five cities without our name in the title. And I wouldn't exactly be jumping for joy on the radiotherapy. It's only a token sop to Waterford (again). FFS we have a Minister For Transport and he can't even organise the bloody motorway. :mad: :mad: :mad:

merlante

Marcopolo85 wrote:

Well said.

Andf even if we DO get a uni, it will be called the 'South Eastern' university!! Yes you can have DCU, LU, UCG, and UCG. We will be the only one of the five cities without our name in the title. And I wouldn't exactly be jumping for joy on the radiotherapy. It's only a token sop to Waterford (again). FFS we have a Minister For Transport and he can't even organise the bloody motorway. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Still, any kind of university would do the trick. We could work out the name afterwards! It does annoy me to see this city reach such straits, though. But 50% of the problem is Waterford people: so canny and streetwise in Waterford, so naive and unconfident outside of it. Always quick to point out a flaw, a weakness or an ugliness in their native city that a visitor or the outsider might have missed.

This is not normal.

propercharlie

Look guys, there are two issues for me at stake. Lobby groups and local politicians, councillors etc calling for a upgrade in status. Fair enough if you want to get something done but these people are blatantly biased.
Also the college authorities are organising themselves in terms of international reports from esteemed academics, public announcements, media friendly director etc. These are cosmetic accumulations that barely scratch the surface of the running of the place. My argument is that it probably is just a matter of time but of the blurb is to have any integrity then things have to change.

merlante

propercharlie wrote:

Look guys, there are two issues for me at stake. Lobby groups and local politicians, councillors etc calling for a upgrade in status. Fair enough if you want to get something done but these people are blatantly biased.
Also the college authorities are organising themselves in terms of international reports from esteemed academics, public announcements, media friendly director etc. These are cosmetic accumulations that barely scratch the surface of the running of the place. My argument is that it probably is just a matter of time but of the blurb is to have any integrity then things have to change.

Fine, if things are not right, let them change. But lets get the university first, and I have no doubt that as the years roll on, people like yourself will affect these changes.

To be honest, the title of "university" is more important in attracting investment, jobs, etc. to the region than the value of the education provided. Having a university in your city is the equivalent of having a little flag put on your location on the map that says: "This is a place of importance, where one can live, work, set up a business, invest in, etc."

Bards

If the facilities are so bad why then is it so popular

Taken from Irish Examiner this morning.

=====================================================
23/08/05
Popularity of Waterford Institute of Technology raises its course points

By Neans McSweeney, South-East Correspondent
MORE students than ever want to study at Waterford Institute of Technology, pushing up the points for its key courses.

There are more than 2,000 first-year places available at Waterford Institute of Technology in the 2005-‘06 academic year across over 20 higher degree and 22 ordinary degree and certificate courses.

Points for most courses are in line with previous years with demand in some areas rising noticeably.

The highest CAO requirements at the institute this year are for the higher degree courses in General Nursing (410 points, up 15 on equivalent figures in 2004), Intellectual Disability Nursing (385, up 60), Electronic Engineering (375, up 20), Psychiatric Nursing (355, same as 2004) and Business Studies with German (355, up five).

Institute director, Professor Kieran R Byrne, said it is great to see so many students making Waterford their number one choice.

“It is encouraging that the Waterford Institute continues to attract Leaving Certificate students and non-traditional applicants of the very highest calibre from our traditional catchment area in the south-east of Ireland and also far beyond. It is clear from the CAO points published today and the demand for places at the institute that our programmes are well positioned to achieve maximum participation, something that is set to continue with the introduction of new courses this year including our new undergraduate degrees in architecture and physics with computing,” he said.

“It is evident from the pattern of first preferences recorded by 2005 CAO applicants that the record and past achievement of this institute are making it a keenly sought destination for thousands of students from throughout the State as well as from Europe, Asia and North America.

“I would urge those students who have received first round offers for courses at the institute to consider their options very carefully between now and August 30 by when their reply must have reached the CAO who will make a second round of offers on September 2.”

Mr Byrne said appeal applications for those dissatisfied with their Leaving Certificate results must be with the State Examinations Commission by September 7, with the outcome available by early October.

propercharlie

This is not a measure of popularity by graduates and undergraduates. People that are applying generally have no idea of facilities. They may have been on an open day visit and given a false impression. Anyway it's not just about facilities.
I see the point of getting the status then other problems take care of themselves but this does not cover up the cracks.

merlante

propercharlie wrote:

This is not a measure of popularity by graduates and undergraduates. People that are applying generally have no idea of facilities. They may have been on an open day visit and given a false impression. Anyway it's not just about facilities.
I see the point of getting the status then other problems take care of themselves but this does not cover up the cracks.

Can you please give me an example of one other third level institution in this country that does not suffer from endemic administrative problems, and the other problems that you are hinting at?

Because if you can't, and if you are judging WIT in a vacuum, then you shouldn't be so insistent that WIT is a disaster.

I came out of college (DCU in my case) with exactly the same view of that college as you have of WIT. I have since spent time in other colleges and I've been in a position to see how colleges work in general. And, as far as I can tell, they're all more or less the same. They don't all have the same problems, but they all have their problems.

In any case, I think you'll find that vast amounts of cash and investment helps for papering over cracks, and even sealing them.

propercharlie

Admin problems are a certainty in all third level organisations. Cracks being hidden is a speciality also. I came through a university and IT system and have familiarity and contacts with many other uni and IT people. I am of the opinion that "some" qualifications in WIT are easier to obtain than in the universities that I have knowledge of. This is my polite way of saying that in some areas (and I cannot of course make a generalisation here) undeserving people are progressing, qualifications are degraded and standards are diluted. WIT does not deserve a uni because of this complete lack of integrity.

merlante

propercharlie wrote:

Admin problems are a certainty in all third level organisations. Cracks being hidden is a speciality also. I came through a university and IT system and have familiarity and contacts with many other uni and IT people. I am of the opinion that "some" qualifications in WIT are easier to obtain than in the universities that I have knowledge of. This is my polite way of saying that in some areas (and I cannot of course make a generalisation here) undeserving people are progressing, qualifications are degraded and standards are diluted. WIT does not deserve a uni because of this complete lack of integrity.

More of this *deserve* rubbish again! WIT may or may not deserve anything, I don't care, but for what it's worth, Waterford and the South East deserve and need a university. Whether that university replaces the WIT or whether it is built on a green field site, is not the point. I expect a university to exist. There's no reason to assume that the resultant university, after the required investment is made, will resemble the WIT of today in any way, in terms of how things operate.

I absolutely don't accept that WIT has a monopoly on giving degrees to people who arguably don't deserve them. Every third level institution in the country is bending the rules to a) Get more students in the door, and b) To get more graduates out the other end. The problem is that there are less students and more courses than there were in the past. College department funding is based on student numbers. College funding & investment is based on graduates numbers. All colleges are feeling the squeeze, and I know for a fact that standards are being compromised everywhere. Or at least compromised by my (and probably your) estimation.

Some colleges, like Trinity, and regional colleges with a captive population, such as UCC, UCG and Limerick, will continue to experience high demand, and that high demand gives these institutes more of a free hand when it comes to maintaining standards, but to be honest, I'd say they're not much better. As for WIT, points for courses are growing steadily year on year because it too has a captive market, which means there is great hope for WIT. If it were to be upgraded to a university tomorrow morning, demand for places with shoot up (people like the title, 'university' on their CVs) and points for all courses would rise by about 20-30. With that kind of demand for places, and therefore selection of students, the WIT will inevitably start to produce a higher class of graduate, plus the staff will be educated to a higher degree than they are at present.

I don't deny that WIT probably has its problems, but I think it is unfair to single out one institute for the sins of them all. In the end, it is the government that is responsible for what is happening.

Anyhow, here is a short article which pretty much sums up what I think about the whole thing, if you're interested:

A ramble about the Knowledge Based Economy and our dodgy 3rd level education system
http://getyourgo.ie/articles/knowledge_1.htm

JCB

merlante wrote:

Waterford and the South East deserve and need a university... I expect a university to exist.

It's quite simple really...
Waterford has always been a safe 2 seats for FF, until that changes there will be no university for waterford...deserve it or not... full stop.

merlante

JCB wrote:

It's quite simple really...
Waterford has always been a safe 2 seats for FF, until that changes there will be no university for waterford...deserve it or not... full stop.

They're not as safe as they used to be. Sinn Fein will be a big threat next time around. And anyway, when you have a cabinet minister in your constituency you have good reason to expect fair play.

In the past I would have had to agree with you, but I think those days are gone now.

dublinguy2004

There are far too many universities in Ireland at the moment; even places like Trinity College and UCD have empty spaces.

The WIT should not be given university status primarily because there is no research worth talking about that is coming out of the institute, the lecturers/academic staff that are appointed are of mediocre standing on an Irish/European level, there is no strategic need for Ireland to have yet another university. I know a lot of PhDs from Trinity/UCD who want to lecture in the ITs not to further their research aims, but so as they can get tenureship in a non-pressurised job that pays €60,000+ for doing nothing.

The country does have a need for qualified people from ITs, why not focus on this and provide excellence in education and training; not everone can be a 1st class graduate and we need plumbers, electricians, builders, office workers, network administrators etc.

Whatever about the points system and intellegence, if there's one thing the points system does tell us, it's the popularity of courses. WIT has no popular courses, i.e. nobody wants to go there! Why? Because it has really low standards. To get university status, all the courses would need to be accredited to their respective professisonal bodies (how many courses in WIT are affiliated?), and would need to be putting out a respectable level of research with the aim of being in the top 500 universities in the world, or higher even. Without these motivations and committment from those in charge (are they capable of this based on their track records?) then it would be a good investment, but really it's never going to happen because it's too risky and monies would be better spent in the more established, red-brick universities where you can trust that they'll produce results.

Budding young Waterfordites should just go to Dublin, Galway or Cork to study. These places have credibility that will stand to you.

Were Waterford to be given a university based on political motivations with no regard to i) the number of university places already available in Ireland, ii) the productivity of existing WIT staff, iiii) the world ranking that Waterford University expected to achieve in say, 5 years then it would be a discrace.

I can see university status being granted for political reasons, all the wrong reasons in my view and would be a complete waste of money.

Dac51

dublinguy2004 wrote:

There are far too many universities in Ireland at the moment; even places like Trinity College and UCD have empty spaces.

The WIT should not be given university status primarily because there is no research worth talking about that is coming out of the institute, the lecturers/academic staff that are appointed are of mediocre standing on an Irish/European level, there is no strategic need for Ireland to have yet another university. I know a lot of PhDs from Trinity/UCD who want to lecture in the ITs not to further their research aims, but so as they can get tenureship in a non-pressurised job that pays €60,000+ for doing nothing.

The country does have a need for qualified people from ITs, why not focus on this and provide excellence in education and training; not everone can be a 1st class graduate and we need plumbers, electricians, builders, office workers, network administrators etc.

Whatever about the points system and intellegence, if there's one thing the points system does tell us, it's the popularity of courses. WIT has no popular courses, i.e. nobody wants to go there! Why? Because it has really low standards. To get university status, all the courses would need to be accredited to their respective professisonal bodies (how many courses in WIT are affiliated?), and would need to be putting out a respectable level of research with the aim of being in the top 500 universities in the world, or higher even. Without these motivations and committment from those in charge (are they capable of this based on their track records?) then it would be a good investment, but really it's never going to happen because it's too risky and monies would be better spent in the more established, red-brick universities where you can trust that they'll produce results.

Budding young Waterfordites should just go to Dublin, Galway or Cork to study. These places have credibility that will stand to you.

Were Waterford to be given a university based on political motivations with no regard to i) the number of university places already available in Ireland, ii) the productivity of existing WIT staff, iiii) the world ranking that Waterford University expected to achieve in say, 5 years then it would be a discrace.

I can see university status being granted for political reasons, all the wrong reasons in my view and would be a complete waste of money.

Reading your post I assume you are looking at this from a typical Dublin point of view where there are universities aplenty. Some points you should take note of:

The South East being one of the largest regions in the state has no university unlike the South, Mid-West, West and East of the country.

Waterford is the only regional gateway city under the National Spatial Strategy not to have a university.

The word 'deserve' should not come into this discussion at all. We should not be 'grateful' to our Dublin masters if WIT is upgraded.

Each year hundreds (possibly thousands) of young people leave the South East to travel to Dublin, Cork, Galway etc for a university education. Most of these people will then get top jobs in the area where they studied and will never return to the South East. Put simply, a drain on skilled workers in this region.

Not having a university puts a black mark against the region when it comes to foreign investment. A lot of multi-nationals looking to set up in Ireland will look at regions with universities as preferred areas for investment.

In summary, the South-East not having a university is hurting us a lot in many ways but the typical line from Dublin is the same old crap - you don't deserve this, we have no money for that etc, etc.

WIT should be upgraded to university status - it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin.

dublinguy2004

Dac51 wrote:

Reading your post I assume you are looking at this from a typical Dublin point of view where there are universities aplenty. Some points you should take note of:

The South East being one of the largest regions in the state has no university unlike the South, Mid-West, West and East of the country.

Waterford is the only regional gateway city under the National Spatial Strategy not to have a university.

The word 'deserve' should not come into this discussion at all. We should not be 'grateful' to our Dublin masters if WIT is upgraded.

Each year hundreds (possibly thousands) of young people leave the South East to travel to Dublin, Cork, Galway etc for a university education. Most of these people will then get top jobs in the area where they studied and will never return to the South East. Put simply, a drain on skilled workers in this region.

Not having a university puts a black mark against the region when it comes to foreign investment. A lot of multi-nationals looking to set up in Ireland will look at regions with universities as preferred areas for investment.

In summary, the South-East not having a university is hurting us a lot in many ways but the typical line from Dublin is the same old crap - you don't deserve this, we have no money for that etc, etc.

WIT should be upgraded to university status - it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin.

Just because I'm not from Waterford doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion. WIT has no academic reputaion worth talking about and why should more taxpayers money be thrown at it when there are already thousands of unfilled places country-wide?

You failed to address many of the key points I made. You go on to say that 'it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin'; that's complete rubbish. Dublin is the capital city and like all capital cities, is there to centralise many functions of the state and therefore one would expect many of the top universities to be located there.

Waterford has a lot going for it including Rosslare harbour, fine agricultural land as well as technology parks etc. You'll find that most of these multinational manufacturing operations e.g. Intel, Analog Devices, Pfizer (all of whom located outside Dublin) don't need mega-intelligent brains to manufacture their products, but need skilled workers who pick up their skills from places like ITs.

Waterford should not be upgraded purely for political reasons because the south east doesn't need a university when there is UCD, DCU, Trinity, Maynooth within 3 hours drive. I don't buy the argument that everyone in the country should live within 1 hour from a university because this is grossly inefficient and would mean that research is sporadic across the country instead of being concentrated in dedicated centres of excellence. You'll find that in most universities the student population is made up of people from all over the country/other EU member states and live away from home; this is the norm rather than the exception. Indeed living away from home whilst attending university (more so in UK/US/Europe), I think, leads to a better education as one is immersed in a fraternal environment that is so unique to university life. Universities are for an education, not just a qualification.

Waterford should concentrate on making its IT better and making it more attractive to students. If the CAO points are going up, then it's popular and students will want to go there, research also needs to improve. There's no need to establish yet another university when there are already unfilled places countrywide.

Rew

Waterford IT has one of the biggest (if not the biggest) IT/Telecoms research groups in the country with a decent academic reputation in Ireland but more so in Europe. As well as that it has several other prominent and well respected research groups in a number of different disciplines.

I actually believe that there should be no difference between ITs/Colleges and Unis as it leads to snobbery and people thinking that a Uni degree is better then an IT one. Truth most of the Uni's aren't all they are cracked up to be but they get a lot more funding.

Talking about living away from home while studying is not relevant to this discussion and im not sure why you brought it up. As for living within 1 hour of a Uni, not everyone can afford to travel and live away from home.

jmcc

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Just because I'm not from Waterford doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion.

And what is it they say about opinions?

Waterford has a lot going for it including Rosslare harbour

What a prize example of the failure of the educational system. Rosslare harbour is in Wexford. Though if you had pleaded for more taxpayer funds to such simple things as the teaching of Irish geography, you might have had a valid opinion. Right now I cannot see the logic of funding more ghetto universities while such an important economic area as the SE is neglected.

The South East requires a university. It will get a university. End of story.

Regards...jmcc

Dac51

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Waterford has a lot going for it including Rosslare harbour, fine agricultural land as well as technology parks etc.

Rosslare harbour in Waterford?? Erm, don't think so. Check a map.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

I don't buy the argument that everyone in the country should live within 1 hour from a university because this is grossly inefficient and would mean that research is sporadic across the country instead of being concentrated in dedicated centres of excellence.

Easy to say when you live within an area that has 4 universities within easy reach. The nearest university to Waterford is Cork - 2hrs drive, then Limerick 2.5hrs drive, Galway 3.5hrs drive or Dublin 2.5hrs drive. Not all people want to study away from home.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

You go on to say that 'it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin'; that's complete rubbish. Dublin is the capital city and like all capital cities, is there to centralise many functions of the state and therefore one would expect many of the top universities to be located there.

This is exactly what the National Spatial Strategy is trying to correct!! Too much money is being spent on Dublin at the moment and it is growing way out of control. The NSS is designed to correct this imbalance and support investment and infrastructure to the regions outside of Dublin. I like every other PAYE worker pay my fair share of taxes. It would be nice to see that money spent fairly rather than have the goverment throw shovels of money towards an already bloated Dublin.

Capital cities do indeed centralise functions of the state (again another imbalance - decentralisation should correct this) but a bit of support for the regions as well please!

merlante

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Just because I'm not from Waterford doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion. WIT has no academic reputaion worth talking about and why should more taxpayers money be thrown at it when there are already thousands of unfilled places country-wide?

I thought that your initial post was just one to wind up the locals, but you seem to be following up, so I'll address your comments.

WIT has a good academic reputation in a few areas, such as IT, in which field it has one of the largest research groups in the country: TSSG, http://www.tssg.ie

WIT gets miserable coverage in the likes of the Irish Times, which refuse to cover 3rd level education and research outside of the context of the University system. Within the academic community, where there is no such bias, and WIT has standing where it competes.

There are no unfilled places in WIT. Points are increasing. All the more reason why WIT should be cut loose from the ailing IT sector. Check your facts.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

You failed to address many of the key points I made. You go on to say that 'it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin'; that's complete rubbish. Dublin is the capital city and like all capital cities, is there to centralise many functions of the state and therefore one would expect many of the top universities to be located there.

This simple point is that there is no University in the South East Region, which is half the size of Dublin. It is the third largest region after Dublin and the South. Infrastructure like Universities and large (regional/university) hospitals are provided on a regional basis, yet there is no university in the south east.

With universities in every other region, including smaller regions, do you wonder why people are demanding one. Now it turns out that the south east has the lowest levels of 3rd level education in the country, that multi-nationals often refuse to set up in a city without a university, that universities are far better funded that IT's of the same size, that the local economy of a university city is a lot stronger than one without, that the profile of Waterford city is less than that of other cities, that the average earnings of Waterford city are less than those of every other city, and that the average earnings of the surrounding counties are even less than those in the supposedly impoverished BMW region. e.g. Average earnings are less in Kilkenny or Wexford than in Leitrim or Roscommon! If you know anything about the history of the Irish economy, you'll know that this is a staggering turnabout in the fortunes of the former.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Waterford has a lot going for it including Rosslare harbour, fine agricultural land as well as technology parks etc. You'll find that most of these multinational manufacturing operations e.g. Intel, Analog Devices, Pfizer (all of whom located outside Dublin) don't need mega-intelligent brains to manufacture their products, but need skilled workers who pick up their skills from places like ITs.

As has been pointed out Rosslare is in Wexford, not Waterford.

You'll find in practice that Analog Devices, Pfizer, Intel, etc. will only set up in the locality of a University. (I couldn't have picked better examples myself)

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Waterford should not be upgraded purely for political reasons because the south east doesn't need a university when there is UCD, DCU, Trinity, Maynooth within 3 hours drive.

What political reasons have been mentioned. We are talking about demographic and economic imperatives.

The point here is that travel is a barrier to education, and statistics show that a much lower percentage of the population of the south east hold a third level degree. Having a university in the heart of a region is vital to fostering an educated workforce, and is vital to attracting industry. (and vital to getting to coverage in the Irish Times, so that Dublin people are sufficiently educated on the region)

dublinguy2004 wrote:

I don't buy the argument that everyone in the country should live within 1 hour from a university because this is grossly inefficient and would mean that research is sporadic across the country instead of being concentrated in dedicated centres of excellence. You'll find that in most universities the student population is made up of people from all over the country/other EU member states and live away from home; this is the norm rather than the exception. Indeed living away from home whilst attending university (more so in UK/US/Europe), I think, leads to a better education as one is immersed in a fraternal environment that is so unique to university life. Universities are for an education, not just a qualification.

You have obviously not lived hand to mouth in a scummy bedsit for four years.

Waterford people, and people from the south east, are only looking for parity.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Waterford should concentrate on making its IT better and making it more attractive to students. If the CAO points are going up, then it's popular and students will want to go there, research also needs to improve. There's no need to establish yet another university when there are already unfilled places countrywide.

It annoys me that you can come on here, with no research or knowledge of the situation and feel that you can make pronouncements in a vacuum. You have not addressed the main arguments in favour of a university, and much of your information is incorrect.

For example, you state that points are low in WIT. This is not the case at all, and WIT does have popular courses, whose points are well over 400. WIT course points rise year on year. Students numbers rise year on year. Research conducted in WIT, again, is rising year on year, despite the fact that the WIT has an unclear research remit, as a result of its status as an IT. WIT has full time students numbers of 6,400, and a part time cohort of 4,550. It has as many degrees as NUI Maynooth, but because of the size of the region, it has to grow these courses substantially, and can only really do so under a university remit.

WIT is about the same size as NUI Maynooth, with similar students numbers, and in some areas, higher points for courses. If WIT became a university, it would become one of the largest universities in the country, because of the large population of the south east. As it is, it compares favourably with the state's smallest university.

As for there being "far too many universities" in Ireland. The answer to this is that we want Waterford to provide its fair share of university education in Ireland. We want a campus of the National University of Ireland, of which NUIG, NUIM, etc. are constituents. In future these universities will probably be seen as just campuses of the NUI, in order that the NUI can compete internationally. Waterford is merely looking for an equal slice of this. If we do not get it, the city will be destroyed when it's manufacturing sector is destroyed, ala Donegal.

Being from Dublin, you fail to understand that we need more degrees in Waterford far more than we need international standing for our University. This is about the provision of University education, or not. It is not always an option for people to "set up" in another city and support themselves through college.

As for research, this is a separate issue to education. Research groups can be centralised, or even better, distributed across universities and ITs in Ireland, which to a lesser extent is true today. We *can* provide education in the regions *and* create an umbrella university, such as the NUI, that will compete internationally in terms of research and otherwise.

Rew

2 things, first he's a troll, and a stuck up one at that. He has about 4 usernames here.

Feedback thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=293188&highlight=dublinguy2004

Second, WIT has been getting good coverage from the Irish Times for the last year. WIT has been mentioned twice in the last week or 2. TSSG has had a full article and several mentions as part of bigger articles on WIT.

merlante

Rew wrote:

2 things, first he's a troll, and a stuck up one at that. He has about 4 usernames here.

Feedback thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=293188&highlight=dublinguy2004

Second, WIT has been getting good coverage from the Irish Times for the last year. WIT has been mentioned twice in the last week or 2. TSSG has had a full article and several mentions as part of bigger articles on WIT.

Enough said.

WIT may be getting better coverage than it used to, but the Irish Times devote far more column inches to any of the Universities than they do to it. In their recent 3rd level supplement (after the leaving cert results came out), Waterford had a small column along with the other ITs, while all the universities had large writeups. IT's, whether big or small, and regardless of student numbers, are simply not given the same level of respect by the Irish Times - the so called paper of record.

Bards

From Today's (8-Sep-2005) Irish Examiner
=========================================================

A UNIVERSITY in Waterford would generate 2,000 jobs and up to €100 million for the local economy, economic consultants have found.

Their report recommends that the Waterford Institute of Technology be given full university status and says the move would generate €96.7 million annually for the economy of the South-East.

The report, commissioned by Waterford Chamber of Commerce and carried out by Goodbody Economic Consultants, has found that more than 2,000 jobs would also be generated either directly or indirectly by the upgrade.

The study shows the South-East is suffering from a lack of investment, particularly in education, and, as a result, the region has fallen behind the rest of Ireland in terms of economic development and the number of graduates it produces.

According to data from the Central Statistics Office, per capita income in the South-East region is only 89.5% of the national average. The region is also overly reliant on poorly paid self-employment.

The South-East also suffers from a lack of multi-national investment, despite its position on the eastern seaboard and improving infrastructure links. In addition, the study found there was a relatively low proportion of the labour force with third level qualifications.

The region also suffers from a brain drain, as those taking up university courses move outside the region.

Waterford Chamber of Commerce president Dr Frank Dolphin said the development of a university in the South-East was crucial.

“Universities in Ireland and abroad are becoming more and more an integral part of the economic and social development of the region in which they are situated.

“Universities provide locally available knowledge, creative workforces, research capability and access to global expertise. They provide strategic analysis and leadership, assist in attracting critical foreign direct investment and help to create ‘clusters’ of economic activity,” Dr Dolphin said.

“In worldwide studies of regions which have lagged behind their national counterparts, the presence of a university in the region consistently proved to be the catalyst in the revitalisation of these economies,” Dr Dolphin said.