University status WIT

ishmael whale

merlante wrote:

I don't put much stock and store in individual surveys, tbh.

What sounds more accurate is you find it hard to assimilate inconvenient facts that upset your preconceptions. Fish around on the link provided and you’ll find the methodology. But, more to the point, open your mind.

merlante wrote:

… they were outvoted by vested interests. .

In other words, medical opinion was not, as you said, evenly divided. The general view was 4 centres. I’m still open to sight of any link showing an independent expert view, as distinct from a local campaign view, supporting Waterford RT. But recall I’m simply trying to get you top see that, at the end of the day, the particular decision to include Waterford but not, say, Sligo was mostly political. I also what to make clear in your mind that everyone who ends up close to an RT centre is perfectly comfortable with everyone else (who you are happy to dismiss as ‘people in small towns and barren wastelands’) needing to travel.

merlante wrote:

I'm not going to argue too much about this because my figure of 3 jobs (iirc.) being generated by one 1 high quality civil service job, was not arrived at by me. I believe that this figure is frequently quoted in the media. But feel free to dismiss it like everything else I can't immediately and emphatically prove to your satisfaction. .

The point is not that I’m dismissing things you can’t prove. The point is I am presenting proof that what you are saying is simply wrong and you are refusing to assimilate the information I’m providing. The link I provided above confirms what anyone with an elementary knowledge of the Irish economy knows. Boosting demand does very little to boost the Irish economy because so much leaks out in imports. That’s simply the situation..

merlante wrote:

I'm not saying, per se, that Dublin is better funded than the south east, what I am saying is that Dublin is given infrastructure automatically, when it needs it. .

Equally I can agree that the SE has not had a fair deal in the allocation of state funding. But Dublin does not get infrastructure as it needs it. It is still waiting for the infrastructure it needed to get twenty years ago, while other regions (not the SE) have managed to obtain infrastructure on the basis that it might be useful at some undisclosed time in the future. On occasion, such as the airport, Dublin has been deliberately hamstrung to satisfy some regional agenda. That’s a reality that’s rarely acknowledged. And one of the reasons is that Dubliners tend not to engage in regional lobbying..

merlante wrote:

I think that if the time were taken to properly examine the Western Rail Corridor and motorway, it would be seen that in about 20/30 years, it would start to pay off.

The point is that the time was taken to examine the WRC. It was been examined in detail by a group largely composed of people in the West. However, on examination, they were unable to find any benefit. There’s a thread here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=255957&page=1&pp=20
discussing the McCann report in you are interested.
This contrasts with studies on the reopening of the Navan line, and, indeed, the Dublin Rail Plan. All of these plans show real benefits, but no decision has been taken regarding funding. The idea that Dublin ‘automatically’ gets funding is another misconception. The Port Tunnel, the M50, were all established as necessary decades before anything was actually done.

merlante

Okay, ishmael, you're starting to construe my arguments as fatally biased and ill conceived, so I think it's time to call it a day on this discussion. Hopefully another, with as much knowledge of the radiotherapy case as I have about the university case would see you similarly humbled. But I have no interest in spending the day reading your reports.

For your information, there were vested interests involved in the creation of the radiotherapy report, just as there will be in a Waterford University report. Asking hospitals or universities to accept a new kid on the block is like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas. The correct approach would be to ask international experts about the case. But you see, if you pick the panel, you pick the result, and that is Ireland through and through. Another truism that Dublin people reject outright. Luckily it doesn't exist in their world. I'm not going to discuss this any further, but feel to have the last word if you wish.

As for your startling evidence about a Navan train line being more viable than a western rail corridor. We are trying to implement a thing called the National Spatial Strategy in this country. Building yet another train line to Dublin would be another blow for spatial planning, and would drive Ireland closer to an inefficient city state. Building infrastructure in the regional capitals gives more bang for the tax payers buck and gives people an alternative to Dublin to live and work. If these capitals are not linked up in some manner than we might as well forget about the strategy right now. If you have time to read one more report today, try the National Spatial Strategy.

ishmael whale

merlante wrote:

I have no interest in spending the day reading your reports.

Put another way, ‘Yes Ishmael, I concede that you are able to back up what you are saying with relevant links. I can’t, but if its all the same to you I’d like to end the discussion without actually acknowledging this.’

merlante wrote:

As for your startling evidence about a Navan train line being more viable than a western rail corridor. We are trying to implement a thing called the National Spatial Strategy in this country.

Indeed, as you can probably guess, I’m well acquainted with the National Spatial Strategy. The essential idea in the NSS is that meaningful regional development will only happen if we promote major centres in the regions. Its not a licence to build any old thing so long as its in the West, which is a reasonable summary of regional policy to date.

I have already provided a link above to a thread that discusses the Western Rail Corridor. If you want to base your opinion on something more than a superficial idea that any project with ‘Western’ in the title must be vital to the NSS you could start there.

jmcc

ishmael whale wrote:

What sounds more accurate is you find it hard to assimilate inconvenient facts that upset your preconceptions.

I regard you as someone who displays an almost Aspergian belief in reports and surveys but has no empathy for the people who suffer from cancer or their families. Furthermore you only seem to quote from reports that support your dubious point of view. The South East had a requirement for an RT facility. It has a requirement for a university. It will get a university.

But, more to the point, open your mind.In other words, medical opinion was not, as you said, evenly divided.

How much of it was medical opinion and how much was pure vested interest? It was quite obvious that there was a resentment of the SE getting an RT facility and the government and the vested interests relied on gullible people such as yourself to swallow reports whole and without question. But Bertie Ahern got an idea of how strongly people felt about his stooges when he visited Waterford and the subsequent demolition of the FF vote and the eradication of the PD vote in the local election here showed what awaits the FF seats here at the next general election.

On the research argument side of things, I think you are quite ignorant. Not all research takes place in universities. A lot of research takes place in industry. And much of it is covered by NDAs (Non-Disclosure Agreements). It only makes the pseudo-technology pages of the Irish Times when the developers provide their "technology journalists" with a press release. Enterprise Ireland only gets to see the research where it has possibly grant aided the company. But most research is product based and often when it hits the market, it does so as part of a bigger product or a modification to a bigger product.

Where patents and intellectual property issues exist, things are always kept low profile and most businesses developing such products would not comment when doing research. University research tends to be, generally, non-commercial but there is a growing cooperation with industry and joint research is being carried out in conjunction with operations like WIT's TSSG and other Third Level research groups. This is the heart of research in this country.

Merlante's idea of ignoring you as a troll seems a good one.

Regards...jmcc

ishmael whale

jmcc wrote:

I regard you as someone who displays an almost Aspergian belief in reports and surveys

I take it this is your way of saying you still can’t substantiate your view.

jmcc wrote:

no empathy for the people who suffer from cancer or their families.

As I’ve pointed out, you are utterly at peace with the idea that someone else should do the travelling.

jmcc wrote:

Furthermore you only seem to quote from reports that support your dubious point of view.

That’s because the only reports out there are ones that support my point of view. You will recall that I’ve asked for a link supporting your view several times without success.

jmcc wrote:

On the research argument side of things, I think you are quite ignorant.

Your argument consists of unsupported assertions that there’s lots of secret research going on that no-one knows about. This is about as compelling a view as the Creationist idea that dinosaur bones were put there by God to test our faith.

jmcc wrote:

Merlante's idea of ignoring you as a troll seems a good one.

You’re not ignoring me – you just made a post.

merlante

Starve the troll, jmcc.

Hopefully we'll spot the next one quicker, eh?

jmcc

merlante wrote:

Starve the troll, jmcc.

Hopefully we'll spot the next one quicker, eh?

Yep. It is a good job he was not waffling on about how great an idea eVoting is and how secure the eVoting model was. Things could have really gotten unpleasant.

Regards...jmcc

ishmael whale

merlante wrote:

Starve the troll, jmcc.Hopefully we'll spot the next one quicker, eh

jmcc wrote:

Yep. It is a good job he was not waffling on about how great an idea eVoting is and how secure the eVoting model was. Things could have really gotten unpleasant.

Jmcc
What Merlante really means is your arguments are so dreadful that it would actually do more to assist your case if you said nothing.

While I’m here, the UK has a lower marginal propensity to import than Ireland so demand expansion there is not as meaningless as here. This means there might actually be a marginal benefit to a locality getting a civil service office. Roughly how much of a benefit, I hear you cry with your customary thirst for knowledge.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=663067
Ulster Unionist Assembly member Samuel Gardiner said tens of thousands of Civil Service jobs were being moved out of London and Dublin….
"Sir Michael Lyons, who carried out the Government's review of the Civil Service, has revealed that up to 50 jobs could be created in local areas for every 100 Civil Service jobs moved."

Which sort of puts into perspective Merlante’s unsupported assertion

merlante wrote:

If you bring 200/300 jobs, with maybe 125 new people in to a town, then another bunch of people will need to get their hair cut, need a chemist or a doctor or a dentist, that will comparison and food shop in the area. I'm not going to argue too much about this because my figure of 3 jobs (iirc.) being generated by one 1 high quality civil service job, was not arrived at by me. I believe that this figure is frequently quoted in the media.

merlante

jmcc wrote:

Yep. It is a good job he was not waffling on about how great an idea eVoting is and how secure the eVoting model was. Things could have really gotten unpleasant.

Regards...jmcc

Wasn't it Dempsey that used those machines in an election?

jmcc

merlante wrote:

Wasn't it Dempsey that used those machines in an election?

Ah yes - Dial-up Dempsey. That noted expert on systems security and eVoting. Though Cullen got involved as well.

Regards...jmcc

Bards

Not one, but two Elections were held with e-voting representing 10% of the population.. Cullen was the fall guy for this mess... An Taoiseach backed the e-voting idea to the hilt.

If only the press would get their act together and start blaming Dempsey for introducing it in the first instance

merlante

Bards wrote:

Not one, but two Elections were held with e-voting representing 10% of the population.. Cullen was the fall guy for this mess... An Taoiseach backed the e-voting idea to the hilt.

If only the press would get their act together and start blaming Dempsey for introducing it in the first instance

Cullen took a big fall, because he has no friends in FF. It's amazing how much the media took to knocking him, though, considering the cabinet were in favour, and considering Dempsey's trials had been considered successful.

Regarding the machines themselves, they might well,
a) Be used in a future election.
b) Be sold on to some other country like the US, who use them.

They are not aging, because they are all being stored at a high grade, environmental spec.

I don't consider the 70 million lost, but it will certainly be lost if ministers like Dick Roche are too scared to touch them.

Of course the media never talks about any of this, and prefers to bash Cullen for wasting public money.

It's a pity because it was a good idea, poorly implemented, and now we'll be using paper for years to come, probably.

jmcc

merlante wrote:

Cullen took a big fall, because he has no friends in FF. It's amazing how much the media took to knocking him, though, considering the cabinet were in favour, and considering Dempsey's trials had been considered successful.

Led of course by the usual suspects. Cullen is a bit more ruthless than some of the other politicians and his political management has been better.

They are not aging, because they are all being stored at a high grade, environmental spec.

They are aging and the hardware is probably well out of date by now. From what I remember it is based on the Windows 98 software with a plug-in module that handles the voting data.

It's a pity because it was a good idea, poorly implemented, and now we'll be using paper for years to come, probably.

I have grave reservations as to the security of the model of eVoting and in particular as to the quality and accuracy of the NEDAP software. Unlike the two "experts" rolled out by Cullen's PR, I do know about systems insecurity - I'm the guy who broke Sky's system first. (Just waiting for Ishmael Whale to try to produce a report about the brilliant security of the NEDAP/Powervote system by some non-entity. )

Regards...jmcc

ishmael whale

jmcc wrote:

(Just waiting for Ishmael Whale to try to produce a report about the brilliant security of the NEDAP/Powervote system by some non-entity. )

Sorry, I thought you were just spamming the thread with a whole load of stuff about e voting to move it over the page in the hope of hiding your inability to respond to the material I posted in support of my case on the actual issues we discussed. I didn't know I was expected to contribute, and I hope you won't take my silence as being rude.

Of course you're right, Dempsey was the Minister responsible for introducing e voting. Cullen just got caught with the ball. The only people who seem to have done it close to right are the Australians, where they just published the source code of the system. The source code that, of course, in our case the Irish government don't even own. Nice one, Noel.

merlante

jmcc wrote:

They are aging and the hardware is probably well out of date by now. From what I remember it is based on the Windows 98 software with a plug-in module that handles the voting data.

Doesn't really matter to be honest. If it can count up votes today then it can count up votes in 100 years time. If the electoral system remains the same and the requirements of the machine are otherwise the same, then it can keep on going.

In fact, there is an argument for using older, well tested operating systems for these sorts of dedicated machines. Up until recently, for example, ATMs used cobol programmes running on a VAX, iirc. In order to display 'sexy' advertising on the ATMs, they then went with WIN NT. Now, for the first time, ATMs crash!

Similarly, calculators will keep doing their job forever without real need for upgrade, particularly if you store them with the e-voting machines and only take them out every few years.

jmcc wrote:

I have grave reservations as to the security of the model of eVoting and in particular as to the quality and accuracy of the NEDAP software. Unlike the two "experts" rolled out by Cullen's PR, I do know about systems insecurity - I'm the guy who broke Sky's system first. (Just waiting for Ishmael Whale to try to produce a report about the brilliant security of the NEDAP/Powervote system by some non-entity. )

Regards...jmcc

It is true that the system is not perfect. But is it better than our current system? Probably. Still, I don't like the traceability issues that it suffers from.

Perhaps we should start a new thread!

Maharet

merlante wrote:

In order to display 'sexy' advertising on the ATMs, they then went with WIN NT. Now, for the first time, ATMs crash!

Well that explains a lot, Win NT is such a heap of ****e! As are most windows releases, stupid bastards. :mad:

sourcebody

To upgrade a good 3rd level college to a university amounts to the total loss of a good college where people can avil of good general education.
Universities ia a totla different scene and the S.E. and Waterford does need a University also, to rebuild the confidence in the area for the future years ahead.

Sully

Last post was in 2005.. we are now in 2008... Interesting bump

We decided a while back to stop all university discussions because people couldnt discuss it maturely. Im going to temp lock this thread while we discuss whether to allow the topic restart. When we have reached a decission, ill post back. Cheers.

Topic Closed