Do we have SORN in Ireland??

IrishRover

I have a few cars in storage at the moment and I have received letters titled "final reminder" for motor tax. One of the options on the form says that if the car is currently not in use on the road I must return the form saying so.
I have just ignored them and nothing has happened so far.
As far as I'm aware we don't have any obligation to declare SORN like in the UK, so if I'm right why are the tax office trying to pretend that we do?

Victor

Sorn??????????

Squirrel

Victor wrote:

Sorn??????????

Could be for road-worthy ness? Perhaps IrishRover can elaborate

Alun

Statutory Off Road Notification

Squirrel

Cheers Alun, makes sense

Alun

No problem. Basically it means that anyone who is the registered owner of a vehicle is deemed liable for Motor Tax by default unless they've filled in the appropriate form. It means they can go after people for non-payment purely on the basis of the records available to them and eliminates the need for roadside checks. Makes perfect sense to me, and something they should implement here ASAP.

IrishRover

Yeah, that's it - you have to officially declare that you are not using a car on the public roads when the road tax runs out. It's a subtle but big difference and it changes the "rules of the game" completely. It's a major hassle and instead of them assuming you aren't driving a car on the public roads without paying tax it now assumes that you are unless you notify them with a "statutory off road notification". In other words, it assumes you are guilty until proven innocent.

So regardless of whether you think it's a good idea or not (I don't because I hate that the honest people like myself have to be severely inconvenienced in this way because of the dishonest few) - do we have this in Ireland, because I don't think we do and I think the motor tax office are trying to pretend that we do!

themole

well, there is no mention of declaring a car off the road here:

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/motor_tax_rates.html?search=motor+tax#id3148882


and thats the official gov site they are so proud of , actually it is good

Alun

But isn't the default state of the vast majority of cars "on the road" as opposed to "off the road"? I'd say that SORN would inconvenience very few people, i.e. those who own more than one vehicle and regularly keep one or more of them off the road for periods of time for whatever reason, and would make catching those who more or less deliberately flout the law and avoid paying Motor Tax altogether a much less hit-and-miss affair.

But to return to the original question ... I've no idea, but I get the impression that they're probably chancing their arm.

AMurphy

IrishRover wrote:

.....I have just ignored them and nothing has happened so far.
As far as I'm aware we don't have any obligation to declare SORN like in the .......

Is there an option in whatever forms/bills/notifications you have received to indicate the vehicles are off the road, in storage, or whatever.

either way, I might be worth you while in the long term to indicate that they are indeed off the road, if for no other reason than when and if you may want to put tham pack on the road, you'd be left either with a large bill and penelty for unpaid taxes or a lenghty process to prove that they were not on the road int eh first place, either of which could be messy, expecially if you were trying to move them in a hurry.

at least that way way, the burden of proof is on the Tax Auth. to proove they never received your notifications.

IrishRover

I do think they are chancing their arm, and the way of proving that it was not in use is to simply bring in your application for motor tax renewal in to a garda station and they just stamp the bit that says you declare you haven't been using it for the period of non tax when you go to renew tax.

Another big implication of this is that it means that if you park a car anywhere on a public road (like on the street outside your house) without displaying tax or a SORN certificate then you could face whatever penalties for not having tax even though the car is not in use.

It really is a big change between driving without tax and having a car that's not in use without tax. It's another case of failure to enforce a law so bring in a new draconian one.

Silvera

I too recieved a similar 'Final Notice' for my previous car last January.
I was about to leave for Australia/NZ for the remainder of 2004 and I wrote to the tax office and informed them that the car was in storage.

I returned in late 2004 and put my car back on the road .....incl taxing it.
When the tax was again due for renewal, I didn't recieve the automatic renewal notice.

I contacted the Tax Office in Shannon and was informed that I would have to get a "roadworthyness certificate from a garage" as my car was still listed as "off the road" ............I wouldn't mind but the car had obtained a 2-yr NCT Cert a month beforehand!

.........she told me an NCT Cert wouldn't suffice and I would still need a "roadworthness cert from a garage" in order to get my car delisted from their system as being 'off the road' !!!

I mean a govt department wouldn't accept confirmation from the state vehicle testing service (NCT) to confirm that my car was fit for the road ??!!

(N.B. - Incidentially, it was well 'fit for the road' being a 1997 car with 42k from new !).


I'd say don't inform them that it's off the road unless you really have to !!

IrishRover

Very interesting Silvera, and a definite reason not to go along with this.
A classic example of "Irishness" there with one department of beaurocracy not recognising another when it suits them to do so.

AMurphy

While I'll agree with you on half-hatched, ill conceived and badly run/implemented, ad-hoc, ROI Gov systems. you can use it to your advantage if you wish, and or it can be your biggest nightmare, should things not go according to plan.

btw, this is not JUST an Irish problem, its global and mainly effects gov run institutions.
I went through an new modern airport about a year ago (modern airport, prehistoric systems though) and at each check, there was some piece of paperwork missing, a piece that the last checker should have provided but did not, so back and wait in line again get the required form, over and over and over.... So not accepting the NCT findings, etc. Nothing new there, the law was written before the NCT came along and never revised and it's not the job of the lady behind the desk to re-write it either, just administer.
Which leaves it open to you to go to some art/supplies shop, generate a pack of CarbonCopy receipts with you and your address as the main Ford/Toyota/Yugo dealer, then inspect and pass your own car.....

As far as declaring it "off the road" and then having it on the street. that's pretty much par for the course, if it's deemed "off the road" it had not better be on the road, unless it on a trailer. given it would be untaxed anyway, do you think having it on the road or in public is a wise stratagy anyway?.

You might get a car cover for it that covers all the tags and plates.

IrishRover

Yeah, but many people in the cities will have no choice but to have their car parked on the street outside their house. I honestly don't know if a car cover would prevent anyone inspecting underneath.

As for making up your own forms and receipts, well see I'm talking about the frustrations you encounter if you actually try to play the game honestly.

Silvera, did you get some kind of a "SORN cert" by the way?

Victor

Covering the car and storing it on the street for an extended period will probably just (a) damage your tyres (b) have the car towed.

Silvera

IrishRover wrote:

Silvera, did you get some kind of a "SORN cert" by the way?

I actually got two !
I was sent one in Jan '04 (before I went to Oz/NZ) and I wrote to them to say the car was in storage.

Another arrived a few months later (when I was away) and my father phoned the local motor tax office and told them the situation re my car.

Don't recall what it looked like ........computer generated form with something about 'a possible fine...' etc.

Our man in Havana

Silvera wrote:

I actually got two !
I was sent one in Jan '04 (before I went to Oz/NZ) and I wrote to them to say the car was in storage.

Another arrived a few months later (when I was away) and my father phoned the local motor tax office and told them the situation re my car.

Don't recall what it looked like ........computer generated form with something about 'a possible fine...' etc.

computer generated piece of nonsense tbh. It is basically a demand to tax your car or the gardai will be informed. There is no legal requiremnt to answer the letter.

Silvera

so what happens if you ignore the letters ?

......will the next letter be a fine ?

Our man in Havana

Silvera wrote:

so what happens if you ignore the letters ?

......will the next letter be a fine ?

No. An offence is only committed if a vehicle is used in a public place. It's an idle threat.

Victor

Bond-007 wrote:

No. An offence is only committed if a vehicle is used in a public place. It's an idle threat.

No, it just has to be in a public place, no need for it to be in use.

IrishRover

Well that's what I'm trying to find out really Victor, because if this is really the case, when did this law come into effect?

Our man in Havana

Roads act 1920

IrishRover

What?
No, (without having to look at it) I'm sure as you said earlier the roads act 1920 did not make it that you have to have road tax on a car other than when it is in use on the road.

Victor

IrishRover wrote:

What?
No, (without having to look at it) I'm sure as you said earlier the roads act 1920 did not make it that you have to have road tax on a car other than when it is in use on the road.

You are reading things into what he meant to say. He did not mean that parking / storing wasn't covered. Storing a car on the road without road tax will have it towed and possibily crushed.

Remember the thread is about "off road" notifications.

IrishRover

Victor wrote:

Storing a car on the road without road tax will have it towed and possibily crushed.

Well unless we really do have SORN that shouldn't be the case.

Victor

Why?

IrishRover

Well, I'm beginning to doubt myself here, but unless SORN has been introduced here in Ireland then you only need to pay for road tax for a car that is being used (as in driven) on the road.

Seth Brundle

SORN is an automatic system in the UK that sends out a fine if your vehicle isn't taxed. If you wish to take your vehicle off the road then you must notify them otherwise you *will* be fined.
The Irish version is that a vehicle not on private property must be taxed. If not then the owner can be fined. However, it requires a garda/traffic warden to intervene and apply the fine as they are not issued directly by the Motor Tax Offices.
If you take your car off the road here, by rights you are to notify the Motor Tax office but nobody really does.
Similarly, many people who allow their motor tax to lapse go into a garda station and tell the garda on duty that their car had been off the road for the last X months and they want to tax it again - this process can save a small fortune! Sorn gets rid of that bull and puts the onus of driving legally (tax-wise) back fully on the owner.

edit: just thinking - although it is a really simple system to set up (the hardest part is licking the stamps!) it will be a long time before a similar system arrives here. Our government haven't the best track record at ordering IT systems - anyone remember PULSE?

stratos

I actually didn't read this thread the ansewer is NO !