Sufism

Undergod

I was reading recently about Sufism and it really interested me. Could any of you give a good explanation of what it is, or provide a link to a good site? Or is there anywhere in Ireland to learn about Sufism?

Hobbes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism ?

Undergod

That's what I read that got me interested. The section on Sufi cosmology is cool. I'm following up the links on the page at the mo.

Anything else?

Talliesin

Idries Shah's works would be worth a read. I remember finding some Sufi parables he published both entertaining and thought-provoking, though it's too long since I read them to recall any examples.

Dr_Teeth

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/sufitlk.htm

This is a good article, not light reading though.

Teeth.

maitri

Hi!

I know this is an old thread, but anyway:

Talliesin wrote:

Idries Shah's works would be worth a read. I remember finding some Sufi parables he published both entertaining and thought-

If somebody is inetersted, here are some Sufi-quotes collected by Idries Shah:

TO BE A SUFI

”To be a Sufi is to detach from fixed ideas and from preconceptions; and not to try to avoid what is your lot.”
(Abu-Said, son of Abi-Khair)


“Being a Sufi is to put away what is in your head - imagined truth, preconceptions, conditioning – and to face what may happen to you.”
(Abu Said)


RELIGION

“All religion, as theologians – and their opponents – understand the word, is something other than what it is assumed to be. Religion is a vehicle. Its expressions, rituals, moral and other teachings are designed to cause certain elevating effects, at a certain time, upon certain communities.
Because of the difficulty of maintaining the science of man, religion was instituted as a means of approaching the truth. The means always became, for the shallow, the end, and the vehicle became the idol.
Only the man of wisdom, not the man of faith or intellect, can cause the vehicle to move again.”
(Allaudin Attar)


SIN

“Sin against God is one thing; but sinning against man is worse.”
(Sufian thauri)


CLASS

“The lowest class of society are those who fatten themselves in life in the name of religion.”
(Ibn el-Mubarak)


THE STATE

“Justice and fairness, not religion or atheism, are needful for the protection of the State”
(Hakim Jami)


WORSHIP

Man passes three stages.
First he worships anything: man, woman, money, children, earth and stones.
Then, when he has progressed a little further, he worships God.
Finally, he does not say: ‘I worship God’; nor: ‘I do not worship God’
He has passed from the first two stages into the last.
(Rumi)


WHAT IS IDENTITY?

When someone knocked on the door, Bayazid called out:
‘Whom do you seek?’
The caller answered:
‘Bayazid.’
Bayazid replied:
‘I, too, have been seeking “Bayazid” for three decades, and I have not yet found him.’
(Group recitals)


THE WORLD

“The world has no being except as an appearance;
From end to end its state is a sport and a play.”
(Shabistari, Gulshan-i-raz)


“Three things in this life are destructive:
Anger, Greed, Self-esteem.”
(The Prophet)


THE DOOR

Salih of Qazwin taught his disciples:
‘Whoever knocks at the door continually, it will be opened to him.’
Rabia, hearing him one day, said:
‘How long will you say: “It will be opened”? The door has never been shut.’
(Sufi saying) (Rabia is a well known female Sufi mystic)


RABIA

“Hasan of Basra went to see Rabia. She was sitting in the midst of a number of animals.
As soon as Hasan approached, they ran away.
Hasan said:
‘Why did they do that?’
Rabia answered:
‘You have been eating meat. All I had to eat was dry bread.’”
(Sufi saying)


THAURI ON CONTEMPLATION

The great Shibli went to the illustrious Thauri. The master was sitting so still that not a hair of him moved in any way.
Shibli asked:’Where did you learn such stillness?’
Thauri replied: ‘From a cat. He was watching a mousehole with even greater concentration than you have seen in me.’

WHAT MAN REALLY KNOWS

“Men suppose, fancifully, that they know Truth and divine perception.
In fact they know nothing.”
(Juzjani)


WHERE IT WENT

“I saw a child carrying a light.
I asked him where he had brought it from.
He put it out and said:
‘Now you tell me where it has gone.’”
(Hasan of Basra)

THE HEART

"Someone went up to a madman who was weeping in the bitterest possible way.
He said:
'Why do you cry?'
The madman answered:
'I am crying to attract the pity of His heart.'
The other told him:
'Your words are nonsense, for He has no physical heart.'
The madman answered:
'It is you who are wrong, for He is the owner of all the hearts which exists. Through the heart you can make your connection with God.'"
(Attar of Nishapur)


MY HEART CAN TAKE ON ANY APPEARANCE

"My heart can take on any appearance. The heart varies in accordance with variations of the innermost consciousness. It may appear in form as a gazelle meadow, a monkish cloister, an idol-temple, a pilgrim Kaaba, the tablets of the Torah for certain sciences, the bequest of the leaves of the Koran.
My duty is the debt of Love. I accept freely and willingly whatever burden that is placed upon me. Love is as the love of lovers, except that instead of loving the phenomenon, I love the Essential. That religion, that duty, is mine, and is my faith. A purpose of human love is to demonstrate ultimate, real love. This is the love which is conscious. The other is that who makes man unconscious of himself."
(Ibn El-Arabi)



LOVE

"Ordinary human love is capable of raising man to the experience of real love."
(Hakim Jami)


COMMENTING ON A RECLUSE

"He has established himself upon a mountain so he has no Work to do.
A man should be in the market-place while still working with true Reality."
(Sahl)

All quotes from: "The Way of the Sufi" by Idries Shah. (I picked my favourites)


By the way, what's the view on Sufism in traditional Islam today?

M.

Undergod

I like the one on identity particularly. I'm not as interested as I was a few monthsd ago, but that was very cool stuff, thanks maitri.

maitri

Glad that you found something that you liked, even though you are not all that interested in Sufism anymore.

M.

larryone

I find it slightly annoying when Muslims tell me that Sufism is not Islamic. It has been so far the most interesting part of Islam I have seen/read about/heard of. Many Muslims seem to label it as some brand of heresy, and see it as being greater than the divide between Suni and Shia. Obviously Sufi's beg to differ. Unfortunately, I have not yet met a Sufi to ask them about the way they follow their spiritual path.... Are there any on here??? If there are, could you PM me?

Wibbs

larryone wrote:

It has been so far the most interesting part of Islam I have seen/read about/heard of.

I agree with you there. It seems more esoteric, personal and spiritual. Interesting take on things.

the_new_mr

Well, I have to be honest, I don't know very much about sufism in general.

As far as I know, there are two types of Sufi. One is the type that believes that a Sufi is a sub-category of Sunni or even a sub-category of Islam and that you have to wear certain clothes, dance a certain dance, act a certain act or stuff like that. Another is the type that makes personal spirtual effort towards attempting to achieve a state of mind close to complete peace in attempting fully understand his relationship with his Creator and therefore his place in the universe etc etc.

Although I don't know that much about sufism (but would like to know more), there was a friend of the family who was a particularly important figure of Sufism in Egypt. As I understand it, the example of the first individual (as you've probably guessed) isn't sufism at all. Not sure if you can call it heresy though. Only God knows.

The second type is a true Sufi. The origin of the word isn't really known (although it certainly doesn't come from the arabic word for wool).

You could say that when you read the Quran and contemplate on its meanings that you are doing something of a sufi nature. Or you could say that when you are contemplating your position with God or the nature of the universe that you are doing something of a sufi nature.

Anyway, I don't know that much like I said. You can't call it a different sect of Islam that's for sure. It's more the spirtual side of Islam really.

maitri

the_new_mr wrote:

As far as I know, there are two types of Sufi. One is the type that believes that a Sufi is a sub-category of Sunni or even a sub-category of Islam and that you have to wear certain clothes, dance a certain dance, act a certain act or stuff like that. Another is the type that makes personal spirtual effort towards attempting to achieve a state of mind close to complete peace in attempting fully understand his relationship with his Creator and therefore his place in the universe etc etc.

The second type is a true Sufi.

I think you are right in what you are saying. I am not a Muslim myself (but my father is a Muslim convert), but I once spoke with a Sunni imam who said that all good Muslims should have a little Sufi inside.


M.

Qadri

In the name of Allah, the most Kind and most Merciful.

Dear friends,

I have been away for some time from the Islam forum on Boards.ie

I was surfing today after a long time and found this interesting discussion about Sufism in Islam.

I will try to explain what Sufism is and the background.

Sufism is widely misunderstood by some Muslims and also by Non Muslims.
People often think that this is a sect in Islam.

But the reality is Sufi's are just Sunni Muslims.

During the time of The Beloved Messenger (PBUH) there was a group of 40 companions called The Ashaab As-Suffah . The name Sufi is derived from Suffa. These Sahabah (companions) had dedicated their whole life to learning, understanding, practicing and propogating Islam. They did not bother about materialistic interests of the world. They used to wake all night to perform Qiyam-ul-Layl ( remembering Allah whole night) and they used to eat less , sleep less and also talk less.

Sufis are those who do not only fulfill the compulsary (Fard) orders of Allah and His Messenger , they perfom much more than that because of their dedication. Please understand that this is not compulsary but done on voluntary bases. For example fasting as much as possible and extra worshipping of Allah (swt). These people who are somuch dedicated and they love Allah somuch that they perform extra Ibadah were given a label ( just to identify them) The label was Abid, and Sufi ( from Ahl Suffah)

Also these people do not have hate towards anyone. Sufis are those who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) completely. The Prophet (PBUH) never had hate towards anyone in his heart . He did not hate any non Muslims or any sinner but used to be merciful and kind to all. Remember the woman who threw garbage on him always and he visited her when she did not. And remember concurring Mecca and forgiving everyone.
The same way Sufis do not hate anyone even not their own enemies.
They have love for all.




The Quran talks about Auliya Allah ( Friends of Allah i.e. the Saints) All Auliya are sufi's i.e. they perform extra Ibadah and remember their Lord all the time.

Unfortunately now a days people associate dancing and many other non Islamic things to Sufis. SOme people claim to be sufis and practice against Islam. They are not the true Sufis.
A true sufi (wali) is the one who follows the Shariah and Tareeqah .

Tareeqa:

Objective of Tareeqah:
To build a strong relationship with Allah. And to fill ones heart with only the love of Allah ( this is possible through intensive tarbiyyah , to take out hate , pride etc. from himself) And to forget his own being. And only to remember and recognize Allah's being.

First 3 steps of Tareeqa:

1. Eat less
2. Talk less
3. sleep less and worship more
4. intensive Extra (Nafl) Ibadah
5. Akhlaq HAsanah

If one of you is interested in learning more about Sufism than PM me and i will give you details of a study circle held in City centre where you can learn a lot about Islam and offcourse Sufism. ( I am not sure if i can write it on the forum)

Qadri

The second type is a true Sufi. The origin of the word isn't really known (although it certainly doesn't come from the arabic word for wool).

The Ahl Suffah used to wear wool. and most sufis do wear clothes made of wool. This is because it makes one humble and takes out the pride and kills ones ego. So it certainly comes from the arabic word Sof.

Ma as Salam

Wibbs

Imfromative explanation. Just one thing.

Qadri wrote:

But the reality is Sufi's are just Sunni Muslims.

Can Shia's not be sufis on the basis that they're just really devout internally spiritual Muslims or is this just a sunni thing?

the_new_mr

Salam Qadri and thanks very much for the information on Sufism.

Qadri wrote:

But the reality is Sufi's are just Sunni Muslims.

Yes indeed.

I might add a little to Qadri's post and say that a true Sufi is what a Muslim should be (no hate towards others, worshipping God much etc). I wouldn't say that they didn't bother about the materialistic things of this world. To not count them as important and not bother about them are two different things. I'm sure you meant that they didn't count them as important.

The Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) said "Work is a form of worship"

I can't remember if it was Jesus (peace be upon him) or Mohamed (peace be upon him) who met a man who said that he was living as a hermit and didn't work all day so that he could devote all his time to worshipping God. Then the Prophet (either Mohamed or Jesus (peace be upon them both)) asked him "Who provides for you?" to which the man replied "My brother". The Prophet then replied back "Your brother is more devoted to God than you are".

Qadri wrote:

The Ahl Suffah used to wear wool. and most sufis do wear clothes made of wool. This is because it makes one humble and takes out the pride and kills ones ego. So it certainly comes from the arabic word Sof.

While a Sufi may wear wool, would I be correct in saying that that doesn't necessarily make them a Sufi? Conversely, a Sufi may be a Sufi without wearing wool for I've seen some Sufi who wear wool and seem to be very proud because of this as if it were a cloak. I believe that true Sufism is in the heart. I'm sure you share this view.

Also, in case anyone didn't understand some of the Arabic words in Qadri's post, I shall try to make a quick guide.

Ibadah = worship
Abid = one who worships/servant (in this context, one who worships)
Tareeqah = way/path
tarbiyyah = upbringing (but in this context it's more like self-discipline)
Akhlaq Hasanah = good moral values/ethics

Thanks again Qadri. I pray to God that He helps us all to be closer to Him.

Qadri

I might add a little to Qadri's post and say that a true Sufi is what a Muslim should be (no hate towards others, worshipping God much etc). I wouldn't say that they didn't bother about the materialistic things of this world. To not count them as important and not bother about them are two different things. I'm sure you meant that they didn't count them as important.

The Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) said "Work is a form of worship"

I can't remember if it was Jesus (peace be upon him) or Mohamed (peace be upon him) who met a man who said that he was living as a hermit and didn't work all day so that he could devote all his time to worshipping God. Then the Prophet (either Mohamed or Jesus (peace be upon them both)) asked him "Who provides for you?" to which the man replied "My brother". The Prophet then replied back "Your brother is more devoted to God than you are".

Wa alaikum as salaam wwb dear brother,

Indeed this is true. I tried to say that a Sufi does not disconnect himself from the world and the relationships of the world. He does love his children familly and also works to earn money and might even posess wealth. But in his heart the love for His creator is bigger than the love of everything else. So he has wealth but he does not love his wealth. ( He loves his children and familly but love for the Creator is more).

The hadith you coded was of the Beloved Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

So a sufi will always thankfull to Allah. wether he has wealth or weather wealth is taken from him.

Remember Sufis follow strictly the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW). Even the Prophet (saw) has wives, children and wealth he was even the head of the first islamic state Madinah. But yet these things did not disconnect him to Allah.

One of the great Wali's and Sufi's who is an authority in Tasawwuf ( Sufism) Shaykh Abdul Qadir Gillani (r.a.) said :
Sufism is not to leave the world, wealth or to disconnect from the worldly affairs. This is rahbaaniyah . And there is no rahbaniyyah in Islam according the Beloved Messenger Muhammad (PBUH).
Sufism is to posess wealth and have familly etc. but in such a way that these things will not disturb you or distract you and stop you from remembering and serving your Lord.

While a Sufi may wear wool, would I be correct in saying that that doesn't necessarily make them a Sufi? Conversely, a Sufi may be a Sufi without wearing wool for I've seen some Sufi who wear wool and seem to be very proud because of this as if it were a cloak. I believe that true Sufism is in the heart. I'm sure you share this view.

Yes indeed. Sufi's do not necessarily wear wool. There are many sufi's now a days who wear suits sometimes and when allone they wear the Prophetic dress. You do not become a sufi because of your dressing style , it is really your dealing with the Creator and creation what makes one a sufi.
But because in the early days most sufi's used to wear this ( because its cheap and makes one feel humble at that time) this is why the name sufi was given to these people.
I have this info from an authentic book on Tasawwuf "Kashaf al Mahjoob" written by Grand Shaykh Usman Bin Ali Hajveri ( also known Data Hujveri r.a.) .

May Allah (swt) enlighten our hearts with His devine Love, amin.

Qadri

Can Shia's not be sufis on the basis that they're just really devout internally spiritual Muslims or is this just a sunni thing?

Shia's can be devout internally but so are the buddhist and some Hindu priests. What makes one a Sufi is being internally really devout to the Creator and than having correct beliefs as well . For example correct beliefs in regards to not only the Prophets but also the companions.

Some Shia's have different views regarding some companions of the Beloved Messenger (SAW). Because one needs to to have respect for every single Sahabi (companion) of the beloved Messenger (PBUH), this is why all Sufi scholars and all books written on principle of tasawwuf etc. are written by Sunni's.

I am not saying that Shia's are not muslim. I am just saying that Shia's are not Sufi's. A person can be a Muslim without being a Sufi.
Sufism is just a higher stage of a Muslim.

Wibbs

Does this not simply reflect a difference of opinion between Sunni and Shia? I presume all the Muslims here are sunni, so maybe that's part of it. The division seems a complicated one( I know a bit about the split on the succession part, the rest is a grey area for me. As an outsider the shia seem more like catholics(saints/relics/shrines/doctrine etc) and the sunni more like the protestant faith. A simplistic view I know, but there you go).

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but your line

Shia's can be devout internally but so are the buddhist and some Hindu priests.

would seem a devisive one. Associating shias with people considered by Muslims to be unbelievers and all that. The "correct beliefs" bit appears to back that up. Also the line

I am not saying that Shia's are not muslim. I am just saying that Shia's are not Sufi's. A person can be a Muslim without being a Sufi.
Sufism is just a higher stage of a Muslim.

. Correct me if I'm wrong but you appear to be stating that shias are not full muslims though. If you say that Shias can not be Sufis, because sufis are "higher" stage Muslims, that means that because of "incorrect" views in your opinion they can never attain full higher muslim status. I'm sure shias might disagree. I thought that there was only one Islam. It seems you're more like the christian divide between Protestant/Catholic than is healthy for any faith. That guff we have some experience of here. Not good.

While I was looking for an answer to this I googled a view sites and found that some considered Sufism at least historically to be just as much a shia tradition.http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-6439.html

One quote I found was "Shah Ismail, the founder of the Safavid dynasty, who established Twelver Shia Islam as the official religion of Iran at the beginning of the sixteenth century, was revered by his followers as a Sufi master. Sufism, or Islamic mysticism, has a long tradition in Iran."

Qadri

I did not say that Shia's are not complete or full Muslims. I only said they are not the Sufi's as it is defined by the Prophet (SAW).

If you think that a sufi is simply one who is devoted to the Creator and strives to become closer to His Lord than this is not exactly correct. Because the concept of Creator is different in every religion. Some believe in oneness some in trinity and some in many gods. So not everyone who wants to become closer this His Lord is a sufi, he might be a spiritual person but nor a sufi.

Sufi is a person who tries to become close to Allah. and he does this by following the sunnah of the Beloved Messenger (PBUH) and through a spiritual lineage. These spiritual lineages go up to the companions of the Messenger and than to the Messenger (PBUH) himself.
The 4 first caliphs of Islam are also the four teachers of Tasawwuf.
If one does call any of them a non muslim than he can not become a follower of Tasawwuf.

All Sufi Masters like Abu Bakr Siddique, Umar al Farooq, Usman bin Affan, Ali ibn Abi Talib , Owais al-Qarani , Ibrahim bin Adam, Shaykh Akbar ibn Al-Arabi, Shaykh Abdul Qadir Gillani, Bayazid Bustami, Rabia Basri, Hassan Basri, Fuzail bin Ayyaz, Usman bin Ali Hujveri, Pir Mehr Ali Shah, Khwaja Mueen Ud Din Ajmeri (may Allah be pleased with them all ) were all Sunnis.

These people are authorities in Sufism .



Shia brothers have different ideology about Sufism.
I never said that Shia's are not Muslim.
I only said many Sunnis and Shias who are Muslims don't achieve the state of Ihsan (which one reaches through Sufism) . If one needs to reach that state than he needs to first of all have correct beliefs.

I think this matter will only create confusion. This is why we should leave this out and only talk on the teachings of great Sufis.

kemaleddins

Hi, I was just reading about sufism, and i thought maybe to join this group to have a conversation with you.
So you were talking about sufism, have you heard about Celaladdin RUMI, who is the most presenter of Sufism. I think he answers to the questions of Sufism.

the_new_mr

Hi kemaleddins! You're very welcome here

I haven't heard of him personally speaking. Maybe someone else here has.

Qadri

Yes certainly i have heard of him :

Imam Jalal-Ud-Din Rumi (r.a.) who was a great Sufi and Scholar of his time.
He was a disciple of Shah Shams Tabrezi (r.a.)

I actually have read his book Masnavi. Its a beautifull book of poetry which explains tasawwuf.

The grave of the Imam is in Konya (Turkey).