The whole show is a brainwash for the US market

MorningStar

I loved the original show but the new show is really scarey. The whole environment on the show is one of terrorists and how it OK to torture them because they aren't like us. It's not the only show that went with this view and pro toture view.
Star Trek did the whole hiding messages in the plots with the likes of the two tone people to represent racial hatred. Now the US TV seems to be about how to justify the torture and the like and not about acceptance. I could be a wolly liberal but propaganda is scarey when it promotes violence.

Pigman II

I've never watched BG but in reference to ST I've found that ST:Enterprise actually did the opposite to classic Trek and was actually feeding into American prejudices wrt terrorism/terrorists rather than getting them to reevaluate them.

spooydermot

MorningStar wrote:

I loved the original show but the new show is really scarey. The whole environment on the show is one of terrorists and how it OK to torture them because they aren't like us. It's not the only show that went with this view and pro toture view.
Star Trek did the whole hiding messages in the plots with the likes of the two tone people to represent racial hatred. Now the US TV seems to be about how to justify the torture and the like and not about acceptance. I could be a wolly liberal but propaganda is scarey when it promotes violence.

Any particular moments in BSG your referring to?

I actually found that the last series of 24 walked this line as well, there were scenes of CTU agents torturing suspected terrorists, but it was portrayed as something that they were forced to do for the good of all, and as such became in some way heroric, which I found very odd and a bit underhand.

iguana

MorningStar wrote:

The whole environment on the show is one of terrorists and how it OK to torture them because they aren't like us.

I and anyone I've talked to about the show has taken the completely opposite view.

In many ways the cylons are representative of the US as they believe they are carrying out God's work. In BSG the "bad guys" believe in God, the humans are the ones with a faith system which is foreign to modern America.

In episodes containing torture such as Flesh and Bone, there is a definte moral question hanging over Starbuck in what she is doing. The whole episode comes accross as very anti-torture to me, the audience is left feeling uncomfortable by the humans actions, not cheering.

The show also has a back story that the cylons were created by man, and that they rebelled. This means that the "unprovoked" attack on the humans which is the first thing we are introduced to are actually the result (justified or not) of the actions of the humans. In the US the attacks on 9/11 were portrayed as unprovoked by the media but were actually the result (justified or not) of American actions in the Middle East.

There are characters such as Baltar who are willing to lie and decieve and use events to their own end, and cylons such as Caprica Boomer who may be "good" which shows that nothing in a conflict is as black and white as it can seem.

landser

MorningStar wrote:

I loved the original show but the new show is really scarey. The whole environment on the show is one of terrorists and how it OK to torture them because they aren't like us. It's not the only show that went with this view and pro toture view.
Star Trek did the whole hiding messages in the plots with the likes of the two tone people to represent racial hatred. Now the US TV seems to be about how to justify the torture and the like and not about acceptance. I could be a wolly liberal but propaganda is scarey when it promotes violence.

the whole neo -con culture is reaction to the whingy liberal US politics of the 1960's. Torture can be justified in certain circumstances. the question is, not should torture be justified, but where does one draw the line. certainly, if one of the tube bombers had been caught before the 7/7 attacks, i'd feel torture would be justified in that instance.

off topic, sorry... yes torture of cylon clones/changlings, whatever they're called is justified and it reflects the current popular thinking in the states

MorningStar

Pigman II wrote:

I've never watched BG but in reference to ST I've found that ST:Enterprise actually did the opposite to classic Trek and was actually feeding into American prejudices wrt terrorism/terrorists rather than getting them to reevaluate them.

Part of the point I was making is all TV shows at the moment are up for a bit of torture such as Enterprise, BS, 24, Boston Legal etc... It could be a back lash against liberalism but that is also more to my point.

iguana wrote:

In many ways the cylons are representative of the US as they believe they are carrying out God's work. In BSG the "bad guys" believe in God, the humans are the ones with a faith system which is foreign to modern America.

Very odd view to take from the showe from what I watched. The Cylons are more religious i.e. Muslim view. While the BS crew believe their view is right but not religious. The BS crew are definitely the US with enemies in their own and everybody is a suspect.

MorningStar

landser wrote:

off topic, sorry... yes torture of cylon clones/changlings, whatever they're called is justified and it reflects the current popular thinking in the states

On topic and hitting the point. Torture is never justified if it opposes the values you want to up hold. Torture is justified if the culture you want doesn't want to uphold freedom . Using the medai to show a view is brainwashing.
To dehumanise another group because of the risk is exactly what the Nazis did. THey also made teh jews a threat via media as did the Rowanda government

landser

MorningStar wrote:

On topic and hitting the point. Torture is never justified if it opposes the values you want to up hold. Torture is justified if the culture you want doesn't want to uphold freedom . Using the medai to show a view is brainwashing.

it's not brainwashing. it's a reflection of the mores in the US at the moment. if you want to call it brainwashing, then you must also accept that the mores espoused by the original '60s ST was also brainwashing, albeit that it promoted a liberal agenda which would appear to be kosher in your book i.e. nice brainwashing.

IMO, toture can be justified, the question being as to where you draw the line. do you torture a member of a criminal gang to find out where there next heist will be? the answer is, i would say no, but i am aware that once you release the genie, it can take on a life of its own. you can't legislate for this sort of thing. but my previous point re 7/7 stands.

Goodshape

landser wrote:

IMO, toture can be justified, the question being as to where you draw the line.

I'd strongly disagree with that, but then this isn't the humanities forum so I'll just say that I think you're wrong.

With regards the original post, I'd have to agree based on what I've seen of BSG, and also a few episodes of Enterprise. It's still good sci-fi but seems to be a bit of a rallying call alright.

i think it was the end of season 2 in Enterprise that they went off into the 'unknown' to find the evil space terrorists who had launched a devastating surprise attack on earth. Never bothered to find out where that went but the whole thing seemed very gung-ho. Sickeningly so.

Although landser has a point here --

you must also accept that the mores espoused by the original '60s ST was also brainwashing, albeit that it promoted a liberal agenda which would appear to be kosher in your book i.e. nice brainwashing

A rallying call just isn't what I want from a piece of entertainment.

Nuttzz

MorningStar wrote:

I loved the original show but the new show is really scarey. The whole environment on the show is one of terrorists and how it OK to torture them because they aren't like us.

i dont watch star trek so i cant comment on that. The only terrorist that I have seen on BSG is Tom Zarek, when was he tortuted.

You need to stop reading so much into a piece of fictional entertainment...you must be easy to scare...look out there's a bogeyman under your bed :eek: :rolleyes:

iguana

MorningStar wrote:

Very odd view to take from the showe from what I watched.

Yet it would be the same view as most people I have discussed it with. And all who I have discussed it with have seen every episode, not just some. BSG is the kind of show that if you just dip in and out of you miss about 90% of what's going on. Pehaps you should go watch it all and then see if you are of the same opinion.

MorningStar wrote:

The Cylons are more religious i.e. Muslim view. While the BS crew believe their view is right but not religious. The BS crew are definitely the US with enemies in their own and everybody is a suspect.

I don't see how you conclude that Muslim extremists are any more "religious" than neo-con Christian extremists. The religious right in the US is every bit as convinced of their beliefs as any Muslim is.

The humans in BSG are divided in their level of belief in the pantheistic faith that is the religion of their society. They all at least seem to pay it lipservice, some believe in it very strongly, others have had their beliefs strenghtened by the destruction of their worlds and others are manipulating it to suit their own ends. This is a situation that could of course portray the US since September 11th 2001, but it is also the same situation that exists every bit as much for people of the Muslim faith.

You are reading into it what you want to see. Either the Cylons or the Humans could represent the US or the Middle East depending on which way you choose to see it.

MorningStar

iguana wrote:

. BSG is the kind of show that if you just dip in and out of you miss about 90% of what's going on. Pehaps you should go watch it all and then see if you are of the same opinion.

I saw the whole series so don't assume I didn't

iguana wrote:

You are reading into it what you want to see. Either the Cylons or the Humans could represent the US or the Middle East depending on which way you choose to see it.

I have a different view to you and I think it is pretty obvious who the US is in the series. The Humans have a government and army while the Cyclons are like Hydra.
It's not the only series doing this either as I pointed out. I am not a big conspiracy nut but a view is definitly being pushed from US TV. Whether it be a conserted effort or just a reflection of the US feeling why are we buying into it?

Nuttzz

Morning Star

its a tv show ffs


you need to do less



and more

MorningStar

Don't worry I watch a lot less TV these days due to it getting dumber.

iguana

MorningStar wrote:

I saw the whole series so don't assume I didn't

I didn't assume anything, you said it.

MorningStar wrote:

Very odd view to take from the showe from what I watched.

I still think you are seeing what you want to see, I know plenty of people who've seen the opposite. I've certainly seen what you are talking about in a lot of US television but not in this show. Because this show was created to be the opposite of what you are seeing, at least according to Ron Moore, but what would he know?

From dailykos.com/

Ron Moore, a political science graduate of Cornell University, is a television and film writer and producer whose filmography includes Star Trek (The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, Voyager, Generations, First Contact), Good vs Evil, Roswell, Mission Impossible II, Carnivale, Touching Evil and Battlestar Galactica.

Ron has a blog hosted on scifi.com. In his latest blog update, he presents his take on politics, and how his personal opinions and beliefs have influenced the writing in Battlestar Galactica. He suggests that Galactica fans take the ideas brought to light in the series and debate them as they apply to our lives in today's world.

Check out Ron Moore's blog at http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/

Here's a snippet, which gives you an idea of his social politics:

I want the show to provoke you into thinking about the times you live in and the choices that are being made all around you every day. In a time when the President of the United States actually asserts that he has the power to arrest without warrant and detain indefinitely without charge or appeal, any citizen (indeed any person on the face of the Earth) simply by designating them as an "illegal combatant," we should all be engaged in a vigorous and energetic debate about who we are as a people and as human beings and exactly how we do intend to respond to the very real threat posed to this nation and to the foundations of liberal democracy posed by people capable of, and willing to, fly airplanes into buildings.

MorningStar wrote:

Don't worry I watch a lot less TV these days due to it getting dumber.

Or maybe it's just you

MorningStar

What you quoted there doesn't add any more weight to your view of who's who. In fact I think it adds weight to my point.

iguana

Uh-huh, whatever you say.

c0y0te

Thread closed due to it going nowhere in a hurry and wandering ever so slightly off topic (e.g BSG)

c0y0te