Cycling lanes and cars

luckat

I was cycling up Clanbrassil Street yesterday, and got to Emmet Bridge, where there's a cycling lane.

A group of cyclists had dismounted to wheel their bikes on the pavement, because the cycling lane was covered by cars.

I knocked on the window of one of the cars and asked the driver politely if she were aware that this was a cycling lane.

"I can drive on it," she said. "There's a *broken* line."

Was she correct?

robfitz

luckat wrote:

Was she correct?

Yes.

From the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations, 1998, mechanically propelled vehicles are not allowed to drive in/on a cycle track marked with a continuous white line (RRM 022) but are allowed to drive in/on a cycle track marked with a broken white line (RRM 023).

Mechanically propelled vehicles are not allowed park on any type of cycle track during it's period of operation.

dmeehan

whats the point of a cycle lane if cars can use it?

markpb

dmeehan wrote:

whats the point of a cycle lane if cars can use it?

It's to avoid inconveniencing the poor drivers by taking up roadspace.

The only possible counter-measure is to move into the centre of the next lane and cycle there whenever people are driving/parked in the cycle lane. It's not always possible (or safe) but it feels good to annoy other drivers. 9am Angry Cycling at its very best :-)

Trampas

I come down the grand canal everyday and most of it is straight white line.

I have been in accidents, arguements.

The usual accident is getting shoved into the path when cars are passing on the inside when a car is turning right but the odd time when they turn left.

I usually bang on windows, roots and i have even kicked cars to stop them for killing me.

Cars don't use the left mirror at all i find.

robfitz

Here is a picture of the cycle track in question.

This cycle track has what is commonly called an advanced stop line which is two parellel stop lines (RRM 017), mechanically propelled vehicles which stop past the first stop line are committing of an offence.

Road Traffic (Signs) (Amendment) Regulations, 1998

luckat

Yeah, that's the one all right. Deadly dangerous.

copacetic

not really the car drivers fault, there is a few of these terrible cycle lanes
around where they are just painted taking up 1/3 of a car lane.
worse than useless, just so the city can say we have x km of cycle lanes,
when half of them are just painted areas with broken white lines or no
white lines at all...

cyclopath2001

robfitz wrote:

Yes.

From the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations, 1998, mechanically propelled vehicles are not allowed to drive in/on a cycle track marked with a continuous white line (RRM 022) but are allowed to drive in/on a cycle track marked with a broken white line (RRM 023).

Oddly enugh, the previous year, the regulations prohibited cars from driving in both kinds of cycle lane & then the regulation was modified in 1998, as above, to allow cars to use type RRM023, which is the most common type.

The logic seems to be to use RRM022 on wide roads and RRM023 (or no marking at all) on narrow ones, which seems perverse.

Any idea whose idea this was & if there was any consultation with organisations representing the interests of cyclists?

John R

Most of the roads with the latter type are simply too narrow for seperate cycle lanes and should have no cycle lane markings. The idiots in the various councils haven't got a clue about proper road markings, these are the same people who have marked out bus lanes that are narrower than a bus.

cyclopath2001

John R wrote:

Most of the roads with the latter type are simply too narrow for seperate cycle lanes and should have no cycle lane markings. The idiots in the various councils haven't got a clue about proper road markings, these are the same people who have marked out bus lanes that are narrower than a bus.

Hello? That's perverse. The most useful place for a cycle lane IS on a narrow road. Cycle lanes on wide roads are a waste of money.

luckat

Shared car and cycle lanes too often means the cyclist and bike under the car.

If a city such as Amsterdam, with its narrow streets and canal bridges, can make a superb network of *separate* cycle lanes, why can't Dublin?

(For that matter, in Amsterdam it says on every bus stop what time the bus will reach that stop - and the bus *does* reach that stop at that time! Are we inferior to the Dutch?)

_Kaiser_

luckat wrote:

(For that matter, in Amsterdam it says on every bus stop what time the bus will reach that stop - and the bus *does* reach that stop at that time! Are we inferior to the Dutch?)

...Something I've asked Dublin Bus on several occasions - glad to know though that the system there is still as efficent as it was in the mid-80s!! when I lived there for a few years

Q: Why must the Irish do everything arseways or years/decades after the rest of the world?
A: The "Ah sure it'll be grand" / don't give a damn attitude that pervades every aspect of Irish business

John_C

Trampas wrote:

The usual accident is getting shoved into the path when cars are passing on the inside when a car is turning right but the odd time when they turn left.

If the lane is not wide enough for a car to overtake a bike move yourself into the centre of the lane to make sure the car doesn't try. When the lane widens again you can move left to let the car overtake.

cyclopath2001

John_C wrote:

If the lane is not wide enough for a car to overtake a bike move yourself into the centre of the lane to make sure the car doesn't try. When the lane widens again you can move left to let the car overtake.

I think that there is a mistaken belief that cycle lanes were put into place for the benefit of cyclists.

While lane blocking is a sound defensive tactic, if there is a cycle lane, the cyclist is obliged by law to stay within it unless overtaking a parked vehicle or turning right.

John_C

cyclopath2001 wrote:

if there is a cycle lane, the cyclist is obliged by law to stay within it unless overtaking a parked vehicle or turning right.

When faced with a choice between obeying the law or protecting my safety I'll choose to protect my safety. There are several laws which are less safe for a cyclist to follow.

boardsee

John_C wrote:

If the lane is not wide enough for a car to overtake a bike move yourself into the centre of the lane to make sure the car doesn't try. When the lane widens again you can move left to let the car overtake.

Yeah, try that on me mate, and you`ll be under my car. You must be fairly brave to do that in dublin. One pissed off motorist and you`ll be dead or horribly injured. If the roads not wide enough for a car to overtake you, mount the footpath.

Mucco

boardsee wrote:

Yeah, try that on me mate, and you`ll be under my car. You must be fairly brave to do that in dublin. One pissed off motorist and you`ll be dead or horribly injured. If the roads not wide enough for a car to overtake you, mount the footpath.

Well, boardsee, deliberately running down a cyclist might get you to the next set of red traffic lights 10 seconds quicker, but 'taking your lane' is the recommended option for cyclists on the narrow/dangerous bits of road.

Perhaps you should take a step back and consider whether an aggressive attitude on the road is worth it? In Dublin traffic, the time saved by racing when the road is clear is minimal, as the speed of traffic is controlled by the congestion and lights. I much prefer taking a more relaxed and stress-free attitude, taking it a bit slower, and arriving in work without pent-up anger.

And cyclopath2001, the cyclist may be 'obliged by law' to use the lane, that doesn't mean they should.

M

cyclopath2001

Mucco wrote:

And cyclopath2001, the cyclist may be 'obliged by law' to use the lane, that doesn't mean they should.
M

I was merely pointing out the legal situation. I too ride assertively/defensively.

Come the election, be sure to ask your FF TD why they secretly changed the regulations to discriminate against cyclists.

markpb

boardsee wrote:

Yeah, try that on me mate, and you`ll be under my car. You must be fairly brave to do that in dublin. One pissed off motorist and you`ll be dead or horribly injured. If the roads not wide enough for a car to overtake you, mount the footpath.

I do hope you're joking. I'm sure the pedestrians might have something to say about that idea!

For what its worth, I do the same as John_C. If its not safe for someone to pass me, I'm damned if I'm going to let them try. Any driver trying to force me off the road will be about 10 seconds away from a call to the guards.

DublinWriter

Trampas wrote:

I usually bang on windows, roots and i have even kicked cars to stop them for killing me.

Well that's really clever, isn't it? That would seem like quite the opposite strategy to take if you really don't want a motorist to kill you.

I've seen stupid actions by both cyclists and motorists on the streets and roads in Dublin over the last couple of years and I hate this assumption that either one are totally to blame.

luckat

I cycled to work this morning (on the footpath) and was interested to notice two things:

1) While I'm apparently invisible to many motorists when I'm on the road with them, a couple of motorists beeped angrily on me for cycling on the path.

2) The road had cycle lanes for most of its length. And virtually all of the cycle lane was defined by a *broken* line. In one section at least, a solid line had been replaced by a broken line.

Actually, it's not just the attitude to punctuality (whassat?) or cycle lanes that's cracked in this country - it's the whole attitude to transport in general.

After the second World War, with 60 per cent of each of its major cities destroyed by firebombing, and occupied by a hostile superpower, Japan could have plunged into poverty.

Instead, they sat down and planned for the future. They made laws that said that if the government wanted to drive a train line through your house, it would pay the going rate, and if you didn't like it, too bad.

There are trains everywhere. Train travel isn't cheap, but it's efficient, puntual, on clean, well-maintained trains, and safe.

Everyone cycles (on the pavement, but slowly and safely, and the pavements are broad). Pedestrian overpasses have ramps in the centre of the steps so you can wheel your bike up. Beside every train station (and train stations are every mile or so in every city) is about 100 metres of double-height cycle racks (I have photos if anyone wants me to post them). You pay the council from a fiver in the suburbs to 20 or 30 euro in the city per month for a place on one of these, and there's a guy minding the bikes.

The result is that the whole place *works*. People can get to work easily, conveniently and in time, and the whole place isn't a haze of pollution. Sure there are cars, sure, there are traffic jams - but most people take the train. The trains go within metres of houses, but nobody bothers; it's just the way things are in a city - they take the train noise the same way we take car noise and pollution.

DublinWriter

luckat wrote:

I cycled to work this morning (on the footpath)

That says it all really *sigh*

luckat

It does. What's the point of using cycle lanes if cars have first dibs on them? It's just too unsafe on the roads.

I dream of the day when one path of each canal, and a boardwalk on one side of the Liffey, is dedicated to cyclists - no cars.

dmeehan

luckat wrote:

I dream of the day when one path of each canal, and a boardwalk on one side of the Liffey, is dedicated to cyclists - no cars.

and what about the poor pedestrian??

luckat

In Japan, everyone cycles on the pavement; in fact, as far as I know, cyclists have priority. But they cycle courteously.

Here's pics of the council-run bicycle racks beside one local train station, during the day and during the night.

luckat

Damn, I meant to put them on so you could just see them in the window. How do you do that?

Cabaal

boardsee wrote:

Yeah, try that on me mate, and you`ll be under my car. You must be fairly brave to do that in dublin. One pissed off motorist and you`ll be dead or horribly injured. If the roads not wide enough for a car to overtake you, mount the footpath.

Oh ok, so the Gardi can fine the cyclist for cycling on the footpath...lovely
How about you get to where your going 30seconds slower

luckat

The whole business of cycling in Dublin is kind of third world. Does the Corpo not look at its streets, and see hundreds of bicycles chained to lampposts and road signs? Does it not occur to them that if they put proper cycle parking in, they could cut down the traffic problem? Do they not see that cycle lanes - proper ones, separated from the cars and **shudder** trucks - would speed traffic?

jman0

luckat wrote:

The whole business of cycling in Dublin is kind of third world. Does the Corpo not look at its streets, and see hundreds of bicycles chained to lampposts and road signs? Does it not occur to them that if they put proper cycle parking in, they could cut down the traffic problem? Do they not see that cycle lanes - proper ones, separated from the cars and **shudder** trucks - would speed traffic?

I agree although i personally don't like this idea of "separated from the cars" business because what that invariably means, is Push those Pesky Cyclists out of Motorists way. And that is exactly what the council does when they construct those damned Off Road Cycle Tracks.
While i concede that it may be theoretically possible to construct an Off Road cycle facility that integrates well with the rest of traffic (motor and pedestrain) and does not regelate cyclists as 2nd class citizens; Dublin Corporation is pretty much entirely incapable of doing so.
That being the case i'll stick to my On Road Cycle Lane because while i still have my issues with them, they are at least, the lesser of two evils.

luckat

I didn't mean things like the off-road cycle tracks here (the one on the Stillorgan Road, for instance, where you have to cycle up and down on pavements, getting seasick from the constant dips where the pavement is dished, and dicing with death at every crossroads).

No, an infrastructure administration whose road signage alone makes you wonder if it was designed as an exercise for people in homes for the bewildered is scarcely able to think up an adequate cycle network.

I was thinking of what they have in First World countries such as the Netherlands - cycle lanes on the road, divided from cars by a kerb, with their own traffic lights.

It would be perfectly possible to study the main cycle routes into the city - along Clanbrassil Street, the canals, the Liffey, South Great George's Street, Dorset Street, along the Liffey (from my experience alone), and work out a cycle network on these routes, for a start.

A cycling boardwalk on the Liffey, for instance, would allow people taking the train to Heuston to cycle along the river to the centre of the city, and bring many people through the Phoenix Park, along the river and into the city from the northside. Cycle paths all the way along one side of each of the canals would take a lot of cyclists off the streets and speed their journeys - not to mention making a wonderful weekend cycle for families.

Civilian_Target

trampas wrote:

I usually bang on windows, roots and i have even kicked cars to stop them for killing me.

Buy one of those horn-in-a-can's that you get at football matches and strap it to the handlebars - its louder than most car horns and does a much better job of getting the attention of motorists...

boardsee wrote:

Yeah, try that on me mate, and you`ll be under my car. You must be fairly brave to do that in dublin. One pissed off motorist and you`ll be dead or horribly injured. If the roads not wide enough for a car to overtake you, mount the footpath.

I do this all the time, paricularly at roundabouts when cars are most likely to attempt stupid overtaking manouvres - but I tend to move at about 20mph, so its not usually a problem in Dublin traffic. Cars have been known to beep now and again - but more are generally aware that 6 months in prision and 5 years without a license is not worth it.

Mounting the pavement is illegal - cyclists have to use the road wherever possible - if it gets in your way, thats a tad unfortunate.