Bret "The Hitman" Hart

D-FENS

As from WWE.COM -

http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/hart2

Very interesting to hear Bret was in WWE HQ. I know he's meet with Vince before, and although this was in relation to his DVD, this has to be the best indication yet that he'll be almost certainly inducted into the Hall of Fame next year and possibly make a return to WWE TV, although obviously not in a wrestling capacity.
I don't think it will happen in the short term, as was rumored after HBK's Montreal antics last week. I think that was just WWE exploiting the fact that is was the HEEL Shawn Michaels' first return to Montreal.
But, I do think the Hitman will make some sort of appearance in time.
Anyone got any ideas as to how they like to see it done?
Given the fact that Bret can't participate in the ring (in matches anyway)
Make him a GM? Manage one of the Canadian wrestlers?
Presumably some sort of angle with HBK, Vince and possibly Bishoff (Over Bret's lack of push in WCW) would be used, but how would you guys do it?

Also, on a side note, can't wait for the DVD. A must buy I would say.
Not just for Bret fans but for any wrestling fan, with the inclusion of tributes to some of the late legends Bret wrestling over the years.
I will also be interesting to see what way the whole Montreal thing is handled on the DVD. It would surely have to be mentioned, as whether he likes it or not, it was a big event in Bret's career. Doubtful that he'd want it included on the DVD as his swan song in WWE, so all the more reason for a return...

savemejebus

Hasn't Bret been very vocal lately about being happy retired and not wanting to taint his legacy, as others have done, by going back on tv as part of an angle when he can't really contribute properly?

Ric_Flair

Bret Hart is the Most over-rated wrestler ive ever had the witness of watching in action...

I can never remember anyone other than Stone Cold Steve Austin ever bein g put over by Bret, And it was only in defeat that Austin managed this, so all credit to Austin.

His Matches were played out and repetative, Shawn Micheals carried him through 60 minutes of an iron man match by mat wrestling because quite frankly Hart hadnt got the skills to mix it up with HBK. The "Hitman" then didnt even have the dignity to lose cleanly to Shawn Michaels he played off a screw job angle in WM 12 and at Montreal. I get angry thinking about how selfish the Hitman was and in my opinion Owen was the better Hart.

I dont expect many to agree with me because you have been brainwashed by the WWE/WWF superstar making machine, but as far as a Wrestler goes Bret Hart is no better than Hogan or the Warrior and definatly not in the same League as Ric Flair, Shawn Micheals, HHH, Sting, Chris Jericho or Curt Angle just to name a few

Ph3n0m

Ric_Flair wrote:

Bret Hart is ....a few

Oh how I laughed when I read the above post.

First of all the Wrestlemania 12 Iron Man Match is viewed as one of the best of the modern give and take matches of all time. Each man gave it his all and made the other look like a million dollars - both men brought their A game to that match and to say one was better then the other, just reeks of disrespect for the skills of the other.

Quite frankly it was a great match, as it was generally ackowledged that Hart passed the torch to Michaels - and he did get pinned cleanly.

The situation over the "Montreal screw job" has been convered in depth by Dave Meltzer, one of the premier wrestling journalist around, I suggest you read the article here

As to what Bret Hart has acomplished with his career, I refer you to

http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/profiles/b/bret-hart.html

Likewise with HBK, I refer you to

www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/profiles/s/shawn-michaels.html


As for Hart never putting over anybody - clearly you forget one of the best IC matches of all time - against Davey Boy Smith - but I will let you read more on each wrestler at the links I provided.

Next time, get your facts straight before you rant

savemejebus

Ric_Flair wrote:

Bret Hart is the Most over-rated wrestler ive ever had the witness of watching in action...

I can never remember anyone other than Stone Cold Steve Austin ever bein g put over by Bret, And it was only in defeat that Austin managed this, so all credit to Austin.

His Matches were played out and repetative, Shawn Micheals carried him through 60 minutes of an iron man match by mat wrestling because quite frankly Hart hadnt got the skills to mix it up with HBK. The "Hitman" then didnt even have the dignity to lose cleanly to Shawn Michaels he played off a screw job angle in WM 12 and at Montreal. I get angry thinking about how selfish the Hitman was and in my opinion Owen was the better Hart.

I dont expect many to agree with me because you have been brainwashed by the WWE/WWF superstar making machine, but as far as a Wrestler goes Bret Hart is no better than Hogan or the Warrior and definatly not in the same League as Ric Flair, Shawn Micheals, HHH, Sting, Chris Jericho or Curt Angle just to name a few

great now the other people in my office are looking at me strange for breaking down in fits of laughter :eek:

Mr.Nice Guy

I think we should ignore the wisdom (cough) of 'Ric_Flair' seeing as how he can't even spell 'Kurt Angle' properly...

Ric_Flair

Ha Ha Ha

Getting slammed for having my own opinion, thats the way of the internet isnt it???
My point about the Iron Man match was simply that Shawn Michaels (a moonsault aside) mat wrestled with one of the the greatest mat wrestlers that ever lived (supposedly) he met Bret on Brets terms, and gave him 60minutes of Brets prefered style. Nobody will change my opinion on that.
In my opinion Bret didnt lose that match cleanly.. after 60 minutes Bret had HBK in the sharpshooter.. thus keeping Bret Harts over-whelming ego intact

As for Bret Hart putting Bulldog over... Give me a break, it was for the I.C title and it was in the U.K.

As a Wrestling fan for the last 16 years I'm well aware of the success of both Bret Hart and Shawn Micheals and dont need to be refered to web-sites to refresh my memory (its a shame you felt the need to patronise)

Bret Hart held the WWF title 5 times which also meant he lost it 5 times to Yokozuna, Backlund, Sid, and HBK twice and outta them I cant remember one clean victory for his oposition.

In my opinion it is the real legendary wrestlers and champions who can lose cleanly in the center of the ring and not have to protect their character and save face by putting an angle on it that are the real legends of wrestling

Bret Hart in my opinion was a "good" worker, not great. He was in the right place at the right time, he was well marketed by the mcmahons and he had the ability to be a part of the engine that drove the "Hitman".

I know the majority of you dont agree but im not willing to back down on my opinion of him being "the Most over-rated wrestler ive ever had the witness of watching in action". You may remember him as "The Best there is, The Best there was and The Best there ever will be" But ill remember him from an atomic drop, a clothesline, a gut punch, a russian leg sweep, a backbreaker, a fist-drop from the second rope, and finally his finisher the Sharpshooter Lord knows ive seen that sequence so many times.

Im not simply thrash talking Bret Hart because ive nothing better to do and I want a reaction. Im a wrestling fan that enjoys good wrestling, Im willing to back up my points and have an educated arguement, so lets keep the petty partronism to a minimal here. Ph3n0m said the WM 12 encounter was "viewed as one of the best of the modern give and take matches of all time" if only HBK had have taken on Ric Flair in his prime over 60 minutes

I think my arguement may be summed up by saying Bret Hart could perform well in the ring, but he wasn't in my opinion a good champion. He was a Good Wrestler, Not "Great"

Mr.Nice Guy

Ric_Flair wrote:

You may remember him as "The Best there is, The Best there was and The Best there ever will be" But ill remember him from an atomic drop, a clothesline, a gut punch, a russian leg sweep, a backbreaker, a fist-drop from the second rope, and finally his finisher the Sharpshooter Lord knows ive seen that sequence so many times.

LOL. This from the Ric Flair fan whose own sequence is chop, get chopped, the funny delayed fall, get thrown into turnbuckle, climb turnbuckle, get thrown off, poke someone in the eye, stomp on leg, apply figure four leg lock. Whoop-de-doo! How original of good oul' Naitch!

The only time Bret refused to put someone over was HBK at Survivor Series 97 and this was after Michaels refused to return the favour to Bret by putting Bret over at WM13 in response to WM12. But unforunately Shawn "lost his smile". It's worth pointing out that Hogan refused to put over Bret in the WWF days.

Bret got to where he did through hard work unlike others who used backstabbing and politics.

Personally I think you're a troll looking to get a reaction. There seem to be alot of them about on this forum lately...

Ph3n0m

Nobody will change my opinion on that.
In my opinion Bret didnt lose that match cleanly.. after 60 minutes Bret had HBK in the sharpshooter.. thus keeping Bret Harts over-whelming ego intact

And then Monsoon came out, restarted the match and Hart lost cleanly after getting Sweet Chin Music twice in the face - a clean win

As for Bret Hart putting Bulldog over... Give me a break, it was for the I.C title and it was in the U.K.

It was still a clean loss, and remember this was back when the IC title was actually worth something before HHH crapped on its legacy

As a Wrestling fan for the last 16 years I'm well aware of the success of both Bret Hart and Shawn Micheals and dont need to be refered to web-sites to refresh my memory (its a shame you felt the need to patronise)

And as a wrestling fan, you seem to use selective memories. If you had actually bothered to go to the link I provided you would have seen


December 15, 1996 - IYH It's Time: Sycho Sid defeated Bret Hart to retain the WWF Federation title..
January 6, 1997 - RAW: Vader defeated Bret "Hitman" Hart.
January 21, 1997 - WWF Toronto: Shawn Michaels defeated Bret Hart and Sycho Sid in a 3-WAY to retain the WWF title..
February 17, 1997 - RAW: Sycho Sid defeated Bret "Hitman" Hart for the WWF Heavyweight title..
March 3, 1997 - RAW: Hunter Hearst Helmsley defeated Bret "Hitman" Hart by Disqualification..
March 17, 1997 - RAW: Sycho Sid defeated Bret Hart in a STEEL CAGE match to retain the WWF title..
July 28, 1997 - RAW: The Patriot defeated Bret "Hitman" Hart by pinfall..


A small selection of people he put over - whether it was for a championship or not.

I know the majority of you dont agree but im not willing to back down on my opinion of him being "the Most over-rated wrestler ive ever had the witness of watching in action". You may remember him as "The Best there is, The Best there was and The Best there ever will be" But ill remember him from an atomic drop, a clothesline, a gut punch, a russian leg sweep, a backbreaker, a fist-drop from the second rope, and finally his finisher the Sharpshooter Lord knows ive seen that sequence so many times.

And what HBK is fresh aswell? Insane corner bump, top rope elbow, kip up, sweet chin music and flying forearm - aye HBK was never repetitive at all

Im not simply thrash talking Bret Hart because ive nothing better to do and I want a reaction. Im a wrestling fan that enjoys good wrestling, Im willing to back up my points and have an educated arguement, so lets keep the petty partronism to a minimal here. Ph3n0m said the WM 12 encounter was "viewed as one of the best of the modern give and take matches of all time" if only HBK had have taken on Ric Flair in his prime over 60 minutes

The idea of HBK taking on Flair in his prime is not a good comparisson as a) it can never happen, and b) not even you could predict if it could have happened, how the match would have turned out.

D-FENS

You're obviously entitled to comment on any thread you like, Ric.

And I don't doubt you're a long time and informed fan, even if I don't agree with pretty much anything you've said.

But really, this thread was for fans of Bret Hart, and people who might actually care about his upcoming DVD or possible (if only slight) WWE return.

Maybe starting an "I think the Hitman is one of the most over rated wrestlers ever" or "I love the Nature Boy, Wooooo!" thread would be a better option for you

Firewalkwithme

While I don't agree with everything Ric Flair has said about Bret Hart here, I do agree that he is overated. It seems as though he really started to believe his own publicity (The best there is...blah blah blah) and clearly others have heard it so often that they believe it too. I recently watched the Wrestling with Shadows documentary and while I do feel that Bret was treated very poorly by McMahon, I can see what McMahon was doing at the time and it made a lot of sense. McMahon's statement that 'Bret screwed Bret' may not be entirely true in the way that McMahon would like us to believe but I do think that he did screw himself because he wouldn't or couldn't allow himself to evolve into the type of character that was needed at the time. Wrestling changed but Bret didn't so he got left behind.

D-FENS

Didn’t intend on this thread turning into another Montreal debate but some things said about Bret have to be defended so here goes...

Despatch wrote:

While I don't agree with everything Ric Flair has said about Bret Hart here, I do agree that he is overated. It seems as though he really started to believe his own publicity (The best there is...blah blah blah)

I don't believe that at all, Bret seems to have been one of the most modest and down to earth guys going. Sure, he was always very confident of his abilities and proud of his character, as he says in the documentary, but come on, "The best there is.." is just a bloody tagline, just like Austin's not really the toughest SOB in the WWE, Rock was not the most electrifying man in sports entertainment and Iron Mike Sharpe was not 'Canada's Greatest Athlete' !

Despatch wrote:

I do think that he did screw himself because he wouldn't or couldn't allow himself to evolve into the type of character that was needed at the time. Wrestling changed but Bret didn't so he got left behind.

The only character Vince wanted Bret to evolve into was a WCW character, as you should know from watching the documentary. He was originally promised a 20 year deal which I’m sure would have involved several character changes (GM/Manager/Commish/Whatever), but this was taken way form him, so I don't think it was a case that Bret didn’t want to change and was left behind, he wasn’t given the option to change and was left behind in a fashion that was maliciously intent on insulting what he had achieved in the past and damaging his image for the future.

Sure, everyone needs to know when to lay down, but I don't believe Bret would have had a problem dropping the belt to HBK again, but the way it was done was totally unneccessary.And having HBK p*ssing off the Bret fans in MontreaL last week only adds to Bret's claims that Vince, HBK, HHH and anyone else involved are all d*cks.

Firewalkwithme

D-FENS wrote:

The only character Vince wanted Bret to evolve into was a WCW character, as you should know from watching the documentary. He was originally promised a 20 year deal which I’m sure would have involved several character changes (GM/Manager/Commish/Whatever), but this was taken way form him, so I don't think it was a case that Bret didn’t want to change and was left behind, he wasn’t given the option to change and was left behind in a fashion that was maliciously intent on insulting what he had achieved in the past and damaging his image for the future.

Bret said in the documentary that he didn't like the new direction that the WWF was going in at the time and it was only after that became clear to McMahon that they withdrew the contract offer because it was clear he had no future in WWF. It almost appeared as though he was being hypersensitive and could seem to separate fact from fiction when involved in a promo with Shawn Michaels. His personal feeling for Michaels clouded his judgement and he couldn't see the wood for the trees. From a business standpoint I think McMahon did the right thing, he let WCW offer Hart a crazy amount of money and then he destroyed him so they had nothing to work with.

D-FENS

Despatch wrote:

Bret said in the documentary that he didn't like the new direction that the WWF was going in at the time and it was only after that became clear to McMahon that they withdrew the contract offer because it was clear he had no future in WWF. It almost appeared as though he was being hypersensitive and could seem to separate fact from fiction when involved in a promo with Shawn Michaels. His personal feeling for Michaels clouded his judgement and he couldn't see the wood for the trees. From a business standpoint I think McMahon did the right thing, he let WCW offer Hart a crazy amount of money and then he destroyed him so they had nothing to work with.

That's a fair point Despatch, but although Bret didn’t like the direction WWF was going at the time, doesn’t mean he didn’t want to stay around and maybe help steer it in a direction he would have liked. But, as you say, if McMahon felt Bret's attitude was doing nothing but harm to his product, then it is his privilege to get rid of him, and from a "Business standpoint", it hasn’t damaged him, certainly not when he's still using the heat from it in storylines today. But from a wrestling standpoint, I’ll always feel Bret Hart still had a lot to offer the WWF in 1997 and onwards (and no, not stinking up the ring in matches with Hogan or Flair and eating up 40 mins of Raw airtime, but training young wrestlers, or as a road agent, or occasionally appearances on screen to help a storyline).And more a moral standpoint, his WWE exit was just wrong.

But hey, what's wrestling or morals got to do with it, this is Sports Entertainment, Damn it!

Firewalkwithme

D-FENS wrote:

..although Bret didn’t like the direction WWF was going at the time, doesn’t mean he didn’t want to stay around and maybe help steer it in a direction he would have liked.

Well it's better to be on the inside looking out than on the outside looking in if you're looking to influence the direction of a company or even a political party for example. I wonder if Bret had been less vocal in his objections and had simply stuck it out for a while, would things have swung back his way eventually? It's history now though so we can only speculate as to what might have happened.

D-FENS

Despatch wrote:

Well it's better to be on the inside looking out than on the outside looking in if you're looking to influence the direction of a company or even a political party for example. I wonder if Bret had been less vocal in his objections and had simply stuck it out for a while, would things have swung back his way eventually? It's history now though so we can only speculate as to what might have happened.

I think even working in a similar capacity to Ricky Steamboat or Arn Anderson, or help train guys and contribute to the traditional technical wrestling side of things might have been enough for Bret, rather than an actual booking agent who had a say in the direction of on screen storylines. Maybe I’m wrong.
But, as you say, its history now and we will never know, plus either way, the match made in hell of HHH and Steph has decided the fate of WWE up for a long time. Even If Bret had never left, he along with all the other respected and influential names would know his place because Mr. and Mrs. Game are running the show.

Ric_Flair

Listen lads...

Sorry for the angle that I put on this discussion, Im relatively new to this Forum and was just interested in what general opinion of Bret was as I have never understood what all the hype was about. I enjoyed the debate, but I do think that its an arguement that could never be settled so ill agree to disagree with ya's

Ph3n0m

Welcome to the forum, but remember you may be as passionate as you like about HBK, etc, but there will always be someone passionate about the wrestler you are talking about (in this case Hart)

And also I didnt meant to patronise at all - just merely refresh your memory about what Hart and HBK have done - you will always have people who consider each man over-rated - such is people's opinions

Ric_Flair

True, True...

Just dont ever eh eh EVER! diss The Nature Boy and we'll get along fine hahaha kiddin'

I actually love the fact that Its Ric_Flair thats making these comments It might really be him you know, but then his IP can be checked

D-FENS

Dre as in Dray wrote:

I actually love the fact that Its Ric_Flair thats making these comments It might really be him you know, but then his IP can be checked

Nah, it could'nt be the real Flair, he can't use a keyboard - Arthritis in the fingers !

Firewalkwithme

Dre as in Dray wrote:

I actually love the fact that Its Ric_Flair thats making these comments It might really be him you know, but then his IP can be checked

Do you know Ric Flairs I.P. address already? We're gonna need something to work off here