Snape: Good or Evil?? **spoiler alert**

*marie*

So what's the verdict?
Personally I think that he HAD to kill Dumbledore and that they had it planned, why else would DD have frozen Harry?

Draupnir

To stop Harry running out, attacking Malfoy and getting killed by all the Death Eaters?

qz

Severus Snape is a bad bad man. Kick him in his swimsuit area if you ever see him.

IceHawk

Die, Snape, Die...

No, Snape made the unbreakable vow, and he didn't have a choice. I'd say he's still good though. I suspect he'll end up sacrificing himself to save Harry or something obvious like that.

Sleepy

Die, Snape, Die...

I'm with IceHawk. I think the unbreakable vow was made under Dumbledores knowledge (and possibly orders).

To support this view we have:

* Snape being overheard telling Dumbledore that he doesn't want to go through with it.
* Snape neither killing Harry at the end, nor taking him as Voldemort's prisoner and his vexation at Harry's inability to perform non-verbal spells. He seemed like the exasperated teacher (remember him during their Occlumency lessons?) rather than the taunting enemy.
* Dumbledore's faith in him. To have Snape be a genuine Death Eater would be to ruin our perception of Dumbledore as being the great wizard we know him to be and JKR freely admits he's one of her favourite characters
* Dumbledore finally giving him the DATDA class which he knew Snape couldn't last more than a year in thanks to Voldemort's curse on the class. Possibly a means to soften the blow of the huge task that was being asked of him?

banquo

Die, Snape, Die...

Yup. Also Snape, like all the other Death Eaters, knew about the Horcruxes [In TGOF when voldemort is talknig to his death eaters 'you who know the steps I have taken to...'].

then again, if snape knew, why didn't he tell dumbledore?

BlitzKrieg

how have people felt towards snape before the half blood prince?


i always pitied him and sympathised more with him in most cases then with Harry (prob cause older reader, understands snapes viewpoint more).

Gazza22

Die, Snape, Die...

I have always disliked him but his character has always impressed too

i was shocked when he killed Dumbledore but i don't think he done it for the greater purpose of the death eaters

frodi

Die, Snape, Die...

Sleepy wrote:

I'm with IceHawk. I think the unbreakable vow was made under Dumbledores knowledge (and possibly orders).

To support this view we have:

* Snape being overheard telling Dumbledore that he doesn't want to go through with it.
* Snape neither killing Harry at the end, nor taking him as Voldemort's prisoner and his vexation at Harry's inability to perform non-verbal spells. He seemed like the exasperated teacher (remember him during their Occlumency lessons?) rather than the taunting enemy.
* Dumbledore's faith in him. To have Snape be a genuine Death Eater would be to ruin our perception of Dumbledore as being the great wizard we know him to be and JKR freely admits he's one of her favourite characters
* Dumbledore finally giving him the DATDA class which he knew Snape couldn't last more than a year in thanks to Voldemort's curse on the class. Possibly a means to soften the blow of the huge task that was being asked of him?

I'm with sleepy on this one. He is now the perfect undercover agent, nobody will doubt his loyality to the death eaters. He didn't kill or capture Harry during his escape from Hogwarths and Dumbledore didn't need to freeze Harry in the tower. He had already shown his ablity in a wizard/wand fight in the ministry in the last book.

Sleepy

Die, Snape, Die...

BlitzKrieg wrote:

how have people felt towards snape before the half blood prince?


i always pitied him and sympathised more with him in most cases then with Harry (prob cause older reader, understands snapes viewpoint more).

I've always liked the character as I feel he adds a lot to the story. Not sure that I'd always sympathise with him because a lot of the time he's very vindictive and quite bitchy. The pity thing I can identify with, particularly during Order of the Phoenix.

sionnach

Die, Snape, Die...

I strongly believe he's a good guy, and i also hope he's a good guy because it makes his character so much more interesting if he is. A "bad all along" snape is just plain boring compared to the many layered nasty but good snape we've all been fascinated by.

Right from book one he's been the most interesting (but not favourite, lockhart is just untouchable) character for me as we're always being treated to little titbits of information about him here and there that make us rethink the assumptions we've already made about him. Is he or isn't he?, will he or won't he?, did he or didn't he? are questions we all ask about snape right through the series and i'm really glad that we're kept guessing right until the end (even though he's CLEARLY dumbledore's man through and through )

Aisling(",)

S=Slimy
E=Evil
V=Vindictive
E=Excrement
R=Repulsive
U=Ugly
S=Sarcastic

S=Slithering
N=Nasty
A=Appaling
P=Peutrifing
E=Eurgh

Bet ya now Snape will turn out to be looking after harrys best intrests.that'll be a kick in the teeth

Khalim

Die, Snape, Die...

I believe that Snape is a good person at heart.

I agree with Sionnach that the concept of Snape being a complex character rather than the 2-dimensional black and white clear cut good or bad is actually interesting and gives a moral lesson to the kiddies!

dudara

sionnach wrote:

many layered nasty but good snape

I think that that's it in a nutshell. He's petty and vindictive, but I think that ultimately, he'll turn out on Harry's side. Why else did Dumbledore trust him. Right after Sirius' death at the Ministry of Magic, Dumbledore tells Harry that he trusts Snape completely.

butters scotch

Die, Snape, Die...

well its true that he is now the perfect cover agent but who will believe anything he has to say. when harry told them all (the order) what happened they all seemed so shocked nothing was said to lead us to believe otherwise. and the way rowling has written harry's character in the later books probably leads to harry and his major vendetta against snape.if so how predictable. harry won't rest until he is dead etc.. but still i do believe that snape is probably good but maybe thats what she (rowling) wants us to think... ah my head hurts :eek:

*Angel*

Die, Snape, Die...

Hmm an annoying git but on the good side imo... to me it just wouldn't make sense if he was on the dark side.

Yes killed Dumbledore but that was because Dumbledore begged him to.

Santa Claus

Die, Snape, Die...

As many have said before, it'd just be too obvious if he turned out to be a death eater, he'll be Dumbledore's man till the end...and will probably help Harry kill Voldemort or sacrifice himself to save Harry.

Illuvatar

Yeah snapes still good after he killed voldemorts one equal opponent. And could have possibly gotten more people killed letting the death eaters in. There's no guessing or assuming here. HE'S EVIL plain and simple.

LoneGunM@n

I'm on the fence on this one ... one moment I think he could be good & the killing of Dumbledore was part of a greater plan that Dumbledore has devised ... next moment I think that he's an evil b@stard that should be torn limb from limb!

It'll make for very interesting reading in the final book ... can't believe that I have to wait 2 years

Draupnir

voldemorts one equal opponent

I think we should all trust Dumbledores believe that Harry is the one to defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore has never tried to actually kill Voldemort and there is definitely a reason for this.

Voldemort asks Dumbledore why he wont kill him in the Ministry battle, so we must assume Dumbledore has his reasons.

And we must also trust Dumbledore who believes Harry is a very very powerful and important wizard. After all, doesnt Dumbledore tell Harry that he feels safe because Harry is with him? When they leave the cave at the end of HBP.

This is quite a statement from a wizard of Dumbledores power.

bp

Die, Snape, Die...

i've said it before and i'll say it again......i think snape is good!

1. Dum is a brilliant wisard....possibly the best....it was said that he is as powerful as Voldy, he just doesnt use dark magic
2. Dum could defo have stopped that curse if he wanted too! Voldy could never kill him then how could a death eather do something that the MOST powerful dark wisard couldn't do?!

He may have made an unbreakable vow with Dum (Snape) saying that he if had to kill him (Dum) to prove that he (snape) was faithful to the dard lord then he must do it! - i'm sure that could have been put in a less confusing manner!

Also, maybe Voldy doesnt trust snape 100%....why was wormtail living with and spying on him? did Voldy send Mrs Malfoy to make the unbreakable vow? - that is my theory anyway......man two years......nnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooo!

EamonnKeane

Die, Snape, Die...

Also, didn't he tell the Order that HArry was going to the Dept. of Mysteries, thereby foiling Voldemort's plan?

fun bus

Die, Snape, Die...

I think rowling messes with her heads so much that its a tough call. he could end up being the real hero of all 7 books!

dramaqueen

Die, Snape, Die...

I reckon, Dumbledore was dying - the rotten hand thing.
And I think he definitely made Snape swear to kill him, just the same as he made Harry swear to force him to drink the stuff in the cave.
The whole time they were in the cave Dumbledore kept hinting that he had to do this, not Harry and Harry was more important etc.
Dumbledore would never beg for his life. But he might beg for Snape to kill him, if it had to be done!
I think Dumbledore knew Harry wasn't strong enough to kill Voldemort on his own and the only thing that could make him stronger was anger and revenge.

Gaspode

Die, Snape, Die...

No I refuse to believe that snape is a bad guy. All through all of the books Dumbledore tells Harry how much he trusts Snape. How he knows something about Snape that makes him trust him completely.

Can we then expect during book seven for Harry - and us - to discover that Dumbledore's trust was misplaced? I dont think so.

Snape disliked Harrys father for some reason. We must presume we shall find that out - amongst other things - in the final book. But does that explain why Snape is so nasty to Harry. I dont think so. I think he has been training Harry up for the final confrontation - to make Harry stronger and the best wizard he can be.

So as for me - I think Snape is a good guy.

omnicorp

i've changed my mind into thinking he's good. dumbledore knew he was going to die after he drank that potion and snape would have killed or captured harry on the way out if he was evil.

o Fiac

This post has been deleted.

omnicorp

if voldemort couldn't kill dumbledore then snape can't and dumbledore wouldn't have gone down without a fight

JBoyle4eva

Die, Snape, Die...

This is kind of a moral debate with no clear answers as of yet.

We have snape being a Death Eater and a member of the ootp(order of the pheonix) so eally he's an inside for one fo these.

Dumbledore's murder could've been Snape giving into peer pressure from the unbrakable vow. He still could be a good guy bt didn't want to face theconsequences of the unbreakable vow.

However, as desdwalsh says above Dumbledore could've known Snape was going to kill him. I believethis theory and I think Snape will be a traitor to the ootp but truly be an insider from the Death Eaters.

supersheep

Die, Snape, Die...

I think Snape is good. Why?

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince wrote:

'Severus...'
The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.

Can anyone here see Dumbledore pleading for his life? To me, he seems like the kind of person who would never plead for his life, he'd walk there with his head held high. As he says in the first book, "To the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure."

bonkey

supersheep wrote:

Can anyone here see Dumbledore pleading for his life? To me, he seems like the kind of person who would never plead for his life, he'd walk there with his head held high. As he says in the first book, "To the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure."

So why is he pleading? Is he pleading "Please kill me", and not "Please save me"?

jc

Draupnir

I'd bank on it being, "Please Severus, do what I asked you to earlier in this book". What he asked him, we do not know.

Rhyme

If anything ive always thought Snape to be frustrated more than anything else, he'll turn out to be good in the end, but put in a snide word just as 'the big thing'* happens

*Whatever the big thing is

Scarinae

Die, Snape, Die...

Draupnir wrote:

I'd bank on it being, "Please Severus, do what I asked you to earlier in this book". What he asked him, we do not know.

I'd go with that, especially since earlier in the book (I think it was just after they visited Ron in the hospital wing) Hagrid let slip to Harry that he'd heard Snape and Dumbledore arguing, saying he didn't want to go through with it anymore... I think Dumbledore knew Snape would have to kill him to fulfil the unbreakable vow and had to convince him to do it

*marie*

Die, Snape, Die...

So most of us think he's innocent...
Now the question is what role will he play in Book 7? Come back and try and be some sort of mentor to Harry? (that's if harry doesn't kill him of course!)
It should be interesting to see who tries to convince Harry that Snape is innocent...

Rhyme

He'll have some kind pf presence in the book, enough to keep him in the frame but enough to keep Harry in the dark. Harry also has Dumbledores portrait to talk to.

bp

Die, Snape, Die...

i think that harry will kill snape and only find out then that he really was good.....a dual or something with snape telling harry that he had to do it, harry not believing and then him finding out that snape really was good.....mental anguish and all.........but wait...i am going to contradict myself.......mental anguish would mean unresolved issues....final book.......there cannot be any! wow i really confused myself with that one!

to summarise.......snape will tell harry, he wont believe snape, someone else will convince harry that snape is really good! maybe he helps kill voldy?

supersheep

Die, Snape, Die...

I like your original theory more - in that he kills Snape. Seems more appropriate.

Scarinae

Die, Snape, Die...

Yeah it does seem likely actually, and then we can have pages and pages of Harry agonising as in the last few books... Or maybe Snape will get to go "Harry... I AM YOUR FATHER!" (an interesting alternative to Voldemort) (although that wouldn't explain how Harry looks nearly exactly like James)

supersheep

Die, Snape, Die...

Well, there is the whole Snape/Lily thing... I think something along those lines is the 'big secret' about Lily we're all gonna find out. Maybe Harry just got lucky? Or maybe he has a half-brother?

omnicorp

the first book said that harry's dad saved snapes life.
Secondly, who was the person that was the bonder if there was an unbreakable vow between snape and dumbledore. eg, snapes unbreakable vow with malfoy's mother was bonded by malfoy's mother's sister (can't remember names)

supersheep

Die, Snape, Die...

I don't think there was an Unbreakable Vow between them, I get the impression it's on the fringes of Dark magic... Anyways, there doesn't need to be one, as the Vow between Snape and Narcissa would suffice if Dumbledore IS asking Snape to kill him...

omnicorp

well I suppose that explains dumbledores pleading.
Why did Dumbledore want to die though

supersheep

Die, Snape, Die...

So that Snape could be a spy, and to save Malfoy from the burden of killing - I remember Dumbledore says something about killing being a great step, soul-destroying or something...

omnicorp

so why not stop malfoy and protect him like he protected harry?

Civilian_Target

Draupnir wrote:

To stop Harry running out, attacking Malfoy and getting killed by all the Death Eaters?

But the death eaters weren't allowed kill him. Rememebr what Snape says. However, Dumbledore may not have known this when he froze him.

Personally - I think that Snape's bad, its that simple.

omnicorp

but dumbledore knows harry can defend himself against death eaters.
order of the phoenix

supersheep

Die, Snape, Die...

If Dumbledore knows Harry can protect himself, then why freeze Harry against the wall, unless it's so that the end result must be Dumbledore's death? After all, if he hadn't frozen Harry, the two of them could easily have taken Malfoy, and probably the other four too, even with Dumbledore weakened.

bp

Die, Snape, Die...

Dum died cause he was dying....someone said that earlier...the whole hand thing! oh it is mentioned in the book somewhere that someone (who i cannot remember...me thinks snape) made a potion to help with the hand thing!?

Dum never does things without a reason....he made sure harry saw him die and that Snape (not Malfoy) killed him....didnt he say that he knew Malfoy was up to something the whole time?

Horatio

Die, Snape, Die...

Of course we're all forgetting we are dealing with the most
powerfull wizard in the wizarding world where anything
is possible, so Dumbledore faked his own death in order to
get Snape on the inside, why else freeze Harry as he would know he would easily overcome Malfoy

supersheep

Die, Snape, Die...

If he faked his own death, why would Fawkes lament? And why would there be a portrait in the Headmaster's office? Also, storywise, it's a cop-out, and it ALSO would reek of copying Lord of the Rings - Gandalf and the Balrog anyone?