International Football is dead. Discuss.....

horseflesh

The "big" national teams particularly in Europe (Italy, England, Spain, Germany, etc) don't seem arsed any more.
How else would a team like Greece win Euro 2004??
Turkey/South Korea in the World Cup Semi-Finals?

Every week another Premiership player announces his retirement from International Football, because he's just turned 30!!

World Cup summers were like a dream come through for me when I was a kid ('82, '86, '90) but the excitement doesn't seem to be there any more.

It's breaking my heart.........

Spider_Baby!

Well, i for one cannot wait till next summer. Havent really experienced a world cup properly, so i hope this'll be a good one!

jubbly

horseflesh wrote:

Every week another Premiership player announces his retirement from International Football, because he's just turned 30!!

Like who ?? Name them all.

World Cup summers were like a dream come through for me when I was a kid ('82, '86, '90) but the excitement doesn't seem to be there any more.

Its the same with all football, Champions League, UEFA Cup, everything. The golden days of football are gone. Its just like another sport these days.

The only team that is really exciting at international level is Ireland.

bohsman

Have to say I enjoyed the last world cup, was in Barcelona for it with only one Irish pub showing all matches and Spanish TV only showing Spain, so the atmosphere was great with supporters of each country packing the pub for every game, the early mornings were the onlt downside

I dont think International football is dead its just that it only comes alive for the world cup, think of it as WC=FA Cup and European Championships=League Cup add to the fact Ireland never qualify for the EC its not going to have the same excitement levels

Vokes

horseflesh wrote:

World Cup summers were like a dream come through for me when I was a kid ('82, '86, '90) but the excitement doesn't seem to be there any more.

Well thats just it, isn't it? You were a kid during those World Cups - thats why they they were amazing. But your older now, more cynical. My grandad jabbers on about the WCs aeons ago.

And im sure the this generation of kids will think the next WC or two are the best ever.

Its called the circle of life.

*cue music*

Jivin Turkey

SofaKing wrote:

Well thats just it, isn't it? You were a kid during those World Cups - thats why they they were amazing. But your older now, more cynical. My grandad jabbers on about the WCs aeons ago.

And im sure the this generation of kids will think the next WC or two are the best ever.

Its called the circle of life.

*cue music*

I don't think this is the case at all. For me the last world cup was our best one yet. Mainly because I wasn't a kid and spent my time watching the matches in a packed pub! The next one will be even better because I will be there! I would be absolutely gutted if we don't qualify.

Nothing can beat the buzz of watching Ireland in a WC/EC game. The feeling you get from club football cannot touch it, and I'm a Liverpool fan! In the 17 years I've been following football, Ireland have been involved in so many cliff-hangers, so much drama, so much suspense, when you are standing in a room where every single person feels the same way, it just adds to it. People take to the streets after a good WC result, it's euphoria that can't be matched.

Forget Liverpool VS Manchester United, Arsenal VS Chelsea, the game of the season is Ireland VS France, I for one can't wait. I'm so exited I'll be taking the next day off, I just hope it's not to console myself.

jubbly

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I don't think this is the case at all. For me the last world cup was our best one yet. Mainly because I wasn't a kid and spent my time watching the matches in a packed pub! The next one will be even better because I will be there! I would be absolutely gutted if we don't qualify.

cut..

I totally agree, I think the WC is one of the best competitions around and watching Ireland is brilliant. Some countries cant do World Cups because of they have national problems. Spain is an example.

bohsman

Countries that cant do national teams:

Spain - Too many divides in the country
Holland - in team racism issues
Germany - all their good young players are declaring for Turkey
England - like Spain always underachieve - maybe the players have too much money to care?

That has a lot to do with how Greece were able to win the European Championships whereas oncw the world cup comes around Brazil always turn it on but other than Brazil I can see a surprise team win next year

horseflesh

Don't get me wrong, the World Cup is great and I can't wait for next summer (Ireland or no Ireland).
It's just that international football has definitely been taken several rungs below club football in the last 10 -15 years. The "glamour" nations of European football that I mentioned in my first post really don't seem to put 100% in, that's what I see anyway.

In fact I think Brazil will win the 2006 World Cup by default because they're the only major footballing nation who seem interested.

Jivin Turkey

horseflesh wrote:

The "glamour" nations of European football that I mentioned in my first post really don't seem to put 100% in, that's what I see anyway.

In fact I think Brazil will win the 2006 World Cup by default because they're the only major footballing nation who seem interested.

England don't put in 100%? Are you joking? There is probably more hype about the world cup over there than in any country.........................bar........

Germany! The are going mad over there already. Its not that they dont put in 100% over there anymore, its just that the current crop of players at their disposal there just are not in the same league as previous German sides. They still however pushed both Brazil and Argentina (the only two teams with a hope of lifitng the WC apparently) all the way in the CC this Summer.

If Italys master-class in football against Ireland is anything to go by they will be there or there abouts. In a competitive game they will be far more competitive defensively.

Spain, well I can't argue with you, but you just never know.

I'll stick my head out now and say Brazil won't win the WC, particularly after watching them in the CC. Its going to stay in Europe.

Pigman II

International football is on the way out. Very slowly tho I might add! It will take several generations but I can predict with the gradual and homogonisation of the planet there really will be no need for it in the distant future.

It's pretty unimaginable to us today and I'm sure international sport will always be around in our own lifetimes in some form or another but I'd say if you could time travel 200 years into the future then the sight of an 'Ireland' team (or possibly even an Ireland country for that matter) might be hard to find.

The future I see is something similar to the old South Korean league where teams were named after the corporations that sponsored them. Very sci-fi/bigbrother I suppose but that's the way I see it going. So you might as well start welcoming in the new dawn of the Manchester Microsofts and the McDonalds Gunners.

The only thing stronger than patriotism is the dollar.

Big Ears

Id swap winning the Champs League 3 times to win the World Cup once .
Most people that think International football is dead seem to prefer their club team anyway so International football just doesn't matter to them as much .

'How else would a team like Greece win Euro 2004??'

Organisation , desire , defensive brilliance(Seiteridis' manmarking was incredible) , making good use of the few chances they had unlike some teams who wasted chance after chance . They had so much that others team didn't have and not because the other teams 'didn't care' .

horseflesh

Jivin Turkey wrote:

England don't put in 100%? Are you joking? There is probably more hype about the world cup over there than in any country.........................bar........

Germany! The are going mad over there already. Its not that they dont put in 100% over there anymore, its just that the current crop of players at their disposal there just are not in the same league as previous German sides. They still however pushed both Brazil and Argentina (the only two teams with a hope of lifitng the WC apparently) all the way in the CC this Summer.

If Italys master-class in football against Ireland is anything to go by they will be there or there abouts. In a competitive game they will be far more competitive defensively.

Spain, well I can't argue with you, but you just never know.

I'll stick my head out now and say Brazil won't win the WC, particularly after watching them in the CC. Its going to stay in Europe.

OK, maybe England do push themselves (Three Lions, blah, blah, blah...) although maybe I shouldn't have included them in a list of the top European footballing nations..

horseflesh

Big Ears wrote:

'How else would a team like Greece win Euro 2004??'

Organisation , desire , defensive brilliance(Seiteridis' manmarking was incredible) , making good use of the few chances they had unlike some teams who wasted chance after chance . They had so much that others team didn't have and not because the other teams 'didn't care' .

That was sort of my point. They wanted it more than your Spains and your Englands.

Big Ears

horseflesh wrote:

That was sort of my point. They wanted it more than your Spains and your Englands.

Well yes buts not like the other teams wanted it less than normal was it ?

horseflesh

Big Ears wrote:

Well yes buts not like the other teams wanted it less than normal was it ?

Yes, that's exactly what I think.

The Muppet

Really looking forward to the next world cup. Climate usually has a role in deciding the winner and in Germany the Climate will be similar to what our players are used to. A South American team (Brazil - 1958 Sweden) has only won the cup once on European soil .

PHB

Its really very simple.
We have football all weekend, every third day you can watch top class football, and most of the time your favorite club.
Back in the day, you'd watch Match of the Day, and see the highlights.
Now we have football 24/7

The world cup was a chance to watch a months worth of football, 2/3 matches a day, you wake up watch football, cook a steak, watch more football, get some beer, watch more football that was it. That was an amazing concept, sans the beer and steak if you were a kiddie.

Now because we have football so much, its not quite as exciting

horseflesh

But my point isn't that the World Cup is less exciting, it's that less countries (the "Big Guns") don't seem as interested in competing.

eirebhoy

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Forget Liverpool VS Manchester United, Arsenal VS Chelsea, the game of the season is Ireland VS France, I for one can't wait. I'm so exited I'll be taking the next day off, I just hope it's not to console myself.

I've taken the following day off too. I really can't wait. Its only 90 minutes of football but I've been building myself up for this match since the last competitive international in June.

Argentina, Brazil, Croatia, Czech Republic, Ecuador, England, France, Germany, Ghana, Iran, Ireland, Ivory Coast, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Netherlands, Paraguay, Portugal, Rep of Korea, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, Togo, Ukraine, USA... All these countries have sold out of every TST for WC2006. Countries like Togo selling out TST-7's. That means you are paying for tickets to every single match up to the final. Togo are not going to make the final yet there's people still shelling out 1,800 for tickets (for one person) alone.

Nothing matches the World Cup. If international football doesn't mean as much to people now as it did before they have to look at themselves. I only get more attached to Ireland with every match. For me its less to do with football but more to do with nationality. Plenty of Cork City supporters would support Cork over Ireland because the county and city of Cork means more to them than the country of Ireland. If I was to become less attached to the Irish national team it would mean I was becoming less attached to the Irish nationality as a whole. Thats my case anyway.

Chong

I have to say I love watching my home nation Holland but I feel that International are pointless this probably the only time I'll ever agree with Graeme Souness.

evilhomer

WDK wrote:

I have to say I love watching my home nation Holland but I feel that International are pointless this probably the only time I'll ever agree with Graeme Souness.

Souness said that Friendly internationals were pointless only a week into the season.

I think that the players at the minute look at the money they earn at club level and know that they will decrease the number of years they can earn money at that level if they play an additional 8-10 games a year at international level.

A player can only earn big money for maybe 10-15 years so they look out for their own interests, which is understandable.

National pride does seem to get stronger in a World Cup year.
Zidane, Makelele, Thuram, Martin all out of retirement in the last couple of weeks.

Supporters still love internationals, it's the only time you can walk down to the pub and every person is shouting for the same team, it builds a kind of comradery between strangers. I have never experienced such amazing outbursts of public ectasy as when Packie Bonner saved Timofte's penno in Italia 90 or when Ray Houghton scored against Italy in USA 94 or when Robbie Keane scored in injury time against the germans in WC 2002!!

Internationals matter. The players know how much it means to their nation. You can't say Italy don't care (Remember Cassano crying on the pitch when he scored the goal he thought got his team through to the quarter finals in EC 2004? only to find out that the sweden and denmark had mystriously drawn 2-2 ) France care (Zidane getting sick before he took that peno against England, public outcry for Zidane and Makelele to come back and help france qualify)

All these teams still care, the only problem is that the gap between the big teams and the smaller teams is much smaller these days. They often get out played, that doesn't mean they don't care.

Can't wait for Ireland Vs France!!!!! Gwan Ireland!!

jank

Plenty of Cork City supporters would support Cork over Ireland because the county and city of Cork means more to them than the country of Ireland. If I was to become less attached to the Irish national team it would mean I was becoming less attached to the Irish nationality as a whole. Thats my case anyway

Is that a sly dig at Cork people.

redspider

Of course International Matches matter, there are millions of people that tune in to watch the World Cup and the European championship. The World Cup final is regularly the biggest and most watched sporting event in the world, so clearly national teams do matter to most people. Just look at this country (Ireland). The place started to go a bit nuts in 1988, went completely nuts in 1990 and 1994, and once again fairly nuts in 2002. In the 1990 game against England, even the Gardai and criminals stopped "work" to watch the match and there was 99% of TV viewers tuned into that match. The evidence is that for Ireland anyway, International soccer matters very much indeed.

For the players and the sport there is a problem with internationals. The first is the money, which I have no doubt will get sorted out in time. Players are employed by clubs that pay the players week-in week-out their salaries on an annual/contract basis. The clubs get the money from TV rights, attendances at grounds, winning competitions, marketing of merchandise and sponsorship, etc (a couple get it by more dubious means but that is another story). When a player plays for his country he currently does it for the sake of pride, by and large, although there is some marketing potential from it, which the national association may or may not get a slice of. But generally, there is no large salary. The clubs and Uefa are currently the kings of the money pot, and it is this struggle between Uefa/Clubs and Fifa/countries which is driving in some cases players away from international football.

For example, Roy Keane. He just couldnt be arsed at one stage to play for Ireland. If the situation was different where say that at Man U he was earning 1k a week and if he got 50k per match for Ireland (ie: if the finances were different), I can guarantee you that he would not have walked out of Saipan and that the bumpy and hard pitch would have been fine. The same goes for Alan Shearer. He wanted to progress his playing days for his club (and earn more money) than play a few games for England where there was little money, lots of travel, etc, and more hassle than anything else. The same was also the case for Zidane, Thuram and Makelele. But France as a nation needs them and they have collectively answered the call.

I dont blame the players for not wanting to play for their countries when they retire "early" as there is little in it for them. They risk injury, the clubs dont want that, the players dont want that. For a friendly, it is a huge problem. And as professionals, once they have played for their country, well the pride part wanes. Thats why any player that puts his country before his club has to be admired. Any player that doesnt, well .... not really.

So, what are the solutions:
a) perhaps fewer international matches. Let the lesser countries play against each other more often and the top countries play against each other more often, split the world into international divisions, tables. There is no need for Ireland to play the Faroe Islands. That is a waste of time and resources and of no interest to fans.

b) FIFA and National associations need to start paying the players for international matches some big bucks, and clubs must be disallowed from paying players wages during those weeks when international matches are held (can be a part of obtaining a Uefa licence). In that way players will be financially incentivised. But FIFA and National Associations need to get teir marketing acts together.

c) International tournaments to be held every year, multiple tournaments can take place at the same time, not by invitation but by standing in the World League. It may require national associations to reduce their club calendar (eg: in England, get rid of the league cup, reduce the top flight to 18 teams and 34 games in total). But planty of well marketed internationbal tournaments where countries and players have something to play for will have to produce good football.

Essentially, run the national teams as super-clubs!

We have witnessed the transformation of club football in Europe and I believe that there is a very strong potential to do the same with international football. There is huge interest there, we are born Irish, Brazilian, French, etc, and far fewer of us are born into a club. So, if FIFA/Uefa can organise themselves and arrange a suitable structure and platform for both clubs and internationals, we will see a lot of good football, and players will not be retiring, they will be clamouring to get picked.

International football is far from dead ....

redspider

The Muppet

eirebhoy wrote:

If I was to become less attached to the Irish national team it would mean I was becoming less attached to the Irish nationality as a whole. Thats my case anyway.

I don't get that at all. I,m not as passoniate about our national team as I was prior the last World Cup but I don't feel any less Irish because of that. It's only a game it should have absolutly no bearing on your feelings about your nationality.

Pigman II

Tbh I'm the opposite to Eirebhoy in that regard. I don't equate supporting a national sports team as a prerequisit facet of national pride or a measurment thereof.

For example, I couldn't care less when the Ireland rugby team win/lose/draw as I have absolutely no interest in the sport and don't feel that 'patriotism' is enough to make me care about the team, the sport or the players (90% of whom I probably couldn't pick out of a police line-up).

eirebhoy

jank wrote:

Is that a sly dig at Cork people.

Not a sly dig, I openly admit all the time on foot.ie tha Cork people care more about Cork than Ireland. My mother came in to me yesterday while I was watching Spurs-Chelsea and she asked why I wasn't watching "the match". I told her I couldn't give a crap about Dublin.

The Muppet wrote:

I don't get that at all. I,m not as passoniate about our national team as I was prior the last World Cup but I don't feel any less Irish because of that. It's only a game it should have absolutly no bearing on your feelings about your nationality.

You are in the majority. I was just explaining my case really.

Pigman II wrote:

For example, I couldn't care less when the Ireland rugby team win/lose/draw as I have absolutely no interest in the sport and don't feel that 'patriotism' is enough to make me care about the team, the sport or the players (90% of whom I probably couldn't pick out of a police line-up).

I support Ireland in everything. I actually hate cricket but I would watch Ireland play on TV if the match was worth something. 90% of the premiership matches I watch is to keep an eye on Irish players. I didn't watch the 2nd half of Liverpool's match in midweek as Darren Potter was taken off.

BBC always show an interesting stat that the night Ken Doherty was playing to win the WC in 1997, Dublin's busiest police station didn't get one single phone call or make one arrest. People may have no interest in snooker but punters were glooed to their TV's because Ken was Irish.

Big Ears

Im with Eirebhoy on this one , Patriotism is very much linked with sport for me , even sports im not particularly fond of I will watch if its an important game for Ireland . (same as Eirebhoy gave example with cricket , and I think we're going to be in the next cricket world cup so I might have to keep to my word)

Chucky the tree

eirebhoy wrote:

I support Ireland in everything. I actually hate cricket but I would watch Ireland play on TV if the match was worth something. 90% of the premiership matches I watch is to keep an eye on Irish players. I didn't watch the 2nd half of Liverpool's match in midweek as Darren Potter was taken off.
.

Same myself. if the bog snorkling championship was on and an irish lad was in it i would watch it.

BolBill

The most important thing to happen in football in recent times is the Bosman ruling. I think if he knew how much it would ruin (IMO) football young Jean Marc might have kept his little mouth shut. Ever since the Bosman ruling, the money generated by the game has moved from the Clubs to the players. The players now have control over the clubs when it used to be the other way around. The Champions League, with its money, has overtaken the European Championships in importance for the top players I think. There is little money to be acquired playing for your country, there is way too much money to be acquired playing for your club. Some footballers have become mercenaries, just moving from club to club depending on the money offered. Greece winning the Euros was a surprise but considering how poorly the likes of France played against them, they deserved it.

Hopefully the World Cup will restore my faith in footballers. You can bet the South Americans will be taking it seriously, lets hope the Europeans follow.