Rip off Republic - Monday 29th

mike65

Just a quick heads up for Eddie Hobbs "controversial" Rip Off Republic which tomorrow turns its gaze to the cost of transport. No doubt VRT among other matters will get a good airing.

Mike.

Hotblack Desiato

<somewhat controversial>
There are plenty of motoring rip-offs in Ireland but IMHO VRT isn't one of them.
It plays a huge part in keeping income tax low and with new car sales booming, people can well afford it.
Imagine how even more choked our roads would be if there was no VRT.
There might be a case for reducing it on small cars (especially space efficient ones like Smart) but with more and more luxury models being bought here, as a nation we can well afford our toys.
Why should I have to pay more income tax so that some rich git can buy his top of the line Merc cheaper?
</somewhat controversial>

John R

ninja900 wrote:

<somewhat controversial>
There are plenty of motoring rip-offs in Ireland but IMHO VRT isn't one of them.
It plays a huge part in keeping income tax low and with new car sales booming, people can well afford it.
Imagine how even more choked our roads would be if there was no VRT.
There might be a case for reducing it on small cars (especially space efficient ones like Smart) but with more and more luxury models being bought here, as a nation we can well afford our toys.
Why should I have to pay more income tax so that some rich git can buy his top of the line Merc cheaper?
</somewhat controversial>

Of course if we had a better tax system that differentiated between the middle income, wealthy and super rich we could be rid of VRT and have no lost revenues.

Using "luxury" taxes as a way of keeping car ownership down penalises the poorest people far more than the high cost of heated leather seats penalises the rich.

bmoferrall

Eddie Hobbs must be stopped!!
Fear not. A crack team of Government investigators is on the case.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1754363,00.html
:rolleyes:

JungleBunny

Ireland has always been a rip-off for as long as I can remember.
Compared to Germany, about the only thing that is cheaper in Ireland is petrol and diesel, and the only reason for that is some eco-tax.

When the Euro was introduced, they actually paid someone to publish a paper on the price differences between the EU countries and found that Ireland was one of themost expensive coutries. (D'uh)
Still can't get over how much they paid these people to do this... I could have told them that for nothing... even years before the Euro came in!

Eoin

bmoferrall wrote:

Eddie Hobbs must be stopped!!
Fear not. A crack team of Government investigators is on the case.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1754363,00.html
:rolleyes:

There's a lot of debate over him in the Consumer Issues forum, and quite rightly too. His reporting of many of the facts is very leading and inaccurate, so I am not too surprised that his figures don't add up.

However, the VRT is a pile of crap - why on earth shouldn't we be free to import a car from the EU with a minimum of taxation? We don't get to buy Duty Free when travelling within the E.U., so this should work both ways.

bmoferrall

Lies, Damn Lies and statistics! Why let them get in the way of a good story
We can rely on the pol's to provide us with accurate figures :rolleyes:
Is the government suffering from a case of nappy rash ?
Kind of reminiscent of Scrap Saturday - hopefully this programme will survive their interference .

Eoin

bmoferrall wrote:

We can rely on the pol's to provide us with accurate figures :rolleyes:

Nope, but we can't count on Mr Hobbes either - he is the Irish version of Michael Moore - great sound bites, but not to be believed.

Looking forward to the program tonight, but barely anything he says can be taken at face value.

prospect

JungleBunny wrote:

Compared to Germany, about the only thing that is cheaper in Ireland is petrol and diesel,

Does it not cost almost €2000 to get a driving license in Germany?

Mailman

VRT is an unjust tax unfairly applied.

The Department of Revenue are trying to drive out of business all importers of secondhand japanese cars and cars from the UK to maintain the tax.
The Department of Revenue have jigged valuations so that secondhand importers can't sell mass market vehicles profitably just niche models.

for example just check out the OMSP of a Nissan March 1 litre versus a similiar Nissan Micra locally on www.ros.ie.

The deceit behind the scenes involved with the implementation of this tax is simply staggering. The Government really acted like the Mafia when they devised this taxation system in 1993.

If secondhand japanese cars could be imported in to Ireland the price of new cars in Ireland would collapse.

I'm pursuing an appeal against a valuation of VRT on an imported car and I have to say that the Department of Revenue and officials within it have been nothing short of complete bastards during the whole procedure and are deliberately trying to be as unhelpful and unfair as possible; Accountability my arse!

The high retail prices of new cars is not only due to the cost of VRT but also due to a lack of competition as the distributors operate a cartel with the approval of government. If VRT wasn't present then you would not see new Toyota Yaris selling for €15,000 and Corollas for €20,000 - they would be much cheaper as they would be competing with year old Jap. Market secondhand imports.

I used to think that VRT was a necessary evil as it doesn't directly target the poorest in society but I no longer believe this. The poorest in society drive around in older unsafer more expensive cars because of VRT. They pay more for insurance on these more expensive less safe cars too.

Seth Brundle

VRT was brought in to replace the old tax and was initially claimed to be a temporary tax. However, due to the lucrative nature of it, it was retained - could you imagine the revenue abolishing a highly profitable and fully legal taxation system that over 100,000 people a year accept to pay?

edit: oh and if memory serves me correctly, it was brought in following consultation with the SIMI! Personally I believe that the SIMI stand to gain by its presence.

Imposter

prospect wrote:

Does it not cost almost €2000 to get a driving license in Germany?

What does it cost for insurance and lessons in Ireland (as a learner)? There's not much difference then other than the fact that the germans can generally drive at the end of the process and they aren't as much of a danger to others while learning!

prospect

I am sure the Germans pay for insurance and lessons aswell.
The actual application for a license is shockingly expensive.

While I agree that the cost of motoring here is ridiculous, and the standards of roads and public transport are trash, it is naive to just blindly state that we are more expensive at everything than everyone else.

murphaph

prospect wrote:

Does it not cost almost €2000 to get a driving license in Germany?

No, it costs that to learn to drive properly. You don't drive without an instructor until you are competent, unlike this silly country where, post failed driving test, you can legally hop into a car clutching your cerificate of incompetency and drive off on your own to kill someone. That's much better value all round :rolleyes:

Mailman

I know that SIMI gained from the deal in a very specific way but the exact nature of the deal that was done has yet to be made public.

Imposter

prospect wrote:

I am sure the Germans pay for insurance and lessons aswell.
The actual application for a license is shockingly expensive.

The cost you quoted includes lessons with an instructor and school to learn the theory. At the end of this you do a test.

I'm not sure how accurate your 2k€ is either as I did the test in Austria where the system is similar and it only cost around 1200 for 20 sessions (45min each) with an instructor as well as a school (about 24 hours total) to get the theory drummed home. I think there was a small extra charge then sitting both the theory and the driving test as well. Most get the test (the driving part at least) the first time round. There is no such thing as provisionals either which makes things safer for everyone.

prospect

Imposter wrote:

There is no such thing as provisionals either which makes things safer for everyone.

It is true that it is a much better/safer system, but lets be fair. If the Irish Government announced the same system tomorrow, it would be shot down straight away as another stealth tax and a revenue generating exercise.

My brother was living in Germany and he came home to do his test as he couldn't afford the license in Germany. I remember him sayin it wasn't much short of €2K.

P.S. I did about 4 lessons at about IR£15 each plus the cost of the license which i honestly can't remember the price of, lets say IR£50. That was a total of IR£110 or €140. It is an awful long way from €1200 or €2000...
But, if the extra cost of doing further lessons could be directly reduced from your insurance premium, then I would think it would be a great idea.

LFCFan

VRT leads to manufacturers stripping Irish cars of a lot of the safety features other countries count as standard. This is unacceptable. It's one thing removing heated seats and leather upholstry but removing ABS and other features like Stability Control etc is criminal and it's all down to VRT. There should be a change to VRT to allow safety features to be left as is.

Seth Brundle

prospect wrote:

It is true that it is a much better/safer system, but lets be fair. If the Irish Government announced the same system tomorrow, it would be shot down straight away as another stealth tax and a revenue generating exercise.

My brother was living in Germany and he came home to do his test as he couldn't afford the license in Germany. I remember him sayin it wasn't much short of €2K.

P.S. I did about 4 lessons at about IR£15 each plus the cost of the license which i honestly can't remember the price of, lets say IR£50. That was a total of IR£110 or €140. It is an awful long way from €1200 or €2000...
But, if the extra cost of doing further lessons could be directly reduced from your insurance premium, then I would think it would be a great idea.

Comparing Ireland's driver 'education' to Germany's is kind of futile as here driving is regarded as a right whereas in germany it is rightly regarded as a privilege! In Germany, if you cannot show that you are a competent driver then you don't get to drive!

bmoferrall

eoin_s wrote:

Nope, but we can't count on Mr Hobbes either - he is the Irish version of Michael Moore - great sound bites, but not to be believed.

Looking forward to the program tonight, but barely anything he says can be taken at face value.

What's a few decimal points between friends/enemies? A public forum (alright soapbox) like this was badly needed.
I have a feeling the program will eventually develop into a 'Late Late'-style forum for debate, with all sides having their say.
Before that happens, let him put the boot in while they're all on their hols. Get stuck in Eddie!

bazz26

Agree, his figures might not be totally accurate but at least it makes people think and a few of our government representatives sit up and take notice.

Seth Brundle

bazz26 wrote:

Agree, his figures might not be totally accurate but at least it makes people think and a few of our government representatives sit up and take notice.

take notice? I think the two government parties are quietly starting to shít themselves over this.

Silvera

It's amazing how quickly the govt parties can move to "examine" this TV programme.................yet they take years to look into real issues ?!! :mad:

Regardless of perhaps a few inaccuracies, the 'gist' of the programme is 100% !

Stick it to them Eddie !!!

Eurorunner

There may be minor inaccuracies but only an idiot would challenge this series and its content right now (go on John O'Donoghue, you know you want to..).
Its only confirming what we all already knew - but its bringing it all into focus for us.

On the groceries order alone, this programme has put immense pressure on the govt. to do the right thing. The spotlight is on Michéal Martin on this one.

Dunno how many programmes in the series but i hope it runs for a good few more..

Guy:Incognito

How much did he say VRT nets, €979m or something like that. Where exactly is the government supposed to get this extra billion to make up the difference? The only place they can is by increasing taxes and the like.

Its all well and good for other parties to say they will do this and that but the bare fact of it is they have to raise the same amount from the taxpayers so you might not be paying VRT forever but you will be paying the same amount overall.

ds20prefecture

Stekelly wrote:

How much did he say VRT nets, €979m or something like that. Where exactly is the government supposed to get this extra billion to make up the difference? The only place they can is by increasing taxes and the like.

There are more income tax payers than motorists. 1/8 of government revenue is contributed by the motorist.Is 1/8 of government spending on infrastructure? I think not, so why should the motorist carry the tax burden?

I thought the show was weak - the NTR section in particular. All innuendo and little facts. Ditto the piece on VRT up the north - he confused himself with the VAT, saying it would cost €8000 more when it ended up costing €3000 more. Nor did he look at the costs of insurance in Ireland vs others.

Better than saying nothing at all, though (which is what we've all been doing).

Guy:Incognito

ds20prefecture wrote:

There are more income tax payers than motorists. 1/8 of government revenue is contributed by the motorist.Is 1/8 of government spending on infrastructure? I think not, so why should the motorist carry the tax burden?

Who pays it is neither here nor there. The fact of it is that EVERYONE will have to cover the cost, right the way down to the people who can't afford to buy a car. People who car afford a car seem to be getting on just fine. The point about removing tax on optional extras above is a good one as it seems to be the only difference . Price wise, 2nd hand cars seem to be fairly similar here and in the uk, its just the spec that differs.

Bottom line, if VRT goes, imcome tax is going to go up, for everyone. Students, Minimum wagers, average working joes.

murphaph

Surely the most important aspect of government taxation and spending that Hobbs alluded to was the overspend on virtually everything. I prefer the idea of retaining VRT and dispatching the wasteful spendthrift attitude of government departments. We should be getting much more for the taxes we pay. :mad:

Ann Elk

Ther are an infinite number of if's, and's and but's about the possible fiscal impact which removal of vrt will have. Yes it would be unfair on some to impose a general hike on income tax to cover the deficit and yes a compensatory tax on fuel costs - ditto. There is always an option to raise and lower road tax according to the value of the vehicle, or to overhaul the overall income tax system in the country (which desperately needs it).

But the crux of the matter remains - regardless of the eventual fiscal effect, vrt always has been and will remain to be utterly contradictory to EC legislation. It plainly contravenes Art23 and 25 of the treaty and as such needs to be abolished. When we signed up to the Community we agreed to accept the full binding force of it's body of law to the extent that we agreed to let it take precedence over our own constitution.

Having taken that step, it seems utterly reproachable that the government now pursues an 'a la carte' fiscal policy - if we are going to derrogate from our legal obligations, surely it should be over something of more importance to fundamental human freedoms like the marginalising effect of a blanket prohibition on the right to have an abortion??

Whether we were right or wrong to sign for community membership in the first place can be debated until the cows come home (albeit in another thread) but the facts are:

1) We are in the Community
2) We are legally obliged to subscribe to its laws in full
3) VRT contravenes that law
4) Ergo VRT is illegal and should be scrapped
5) It is up to the government to deal with the fiscal outcome
6) If they can't do this in a satisfactory manner we should get off our arses and vote them out like they would do in any other modern western democracy (except the US of course).

bmoferrall

What bothers me most is that we are piddling away in what will probably in hindsight be seen as a golden era for our economy.
The Gov. is absolutely flush with our money and its being squandered on a frightening scale; the budget and time overruns on transport projects are just one sorry example.
With the cash that's been drained from motorists we should have transport infrastructure that's the envy of Europe and the World - quite the opposite is true.

At a time when this country needed people with vision and integrity the likes of P Flynn, L Lawlor and G Redmond had their grubby paws on our hard-earned cash.
At a time when we needed a Michael O'Leary figure we were given Mary O'Rouke.
Get rid of the back-slappers, hucksters, chancers, wasters and sheisters.
Let's have some professionals with proper real-world experience and qualifications to take charge of the public purse before the money runs out.

lomb

the road cost overruns were caused partially by rising land prices as the government had to commpesate landowners under compulsory purchase.
the problem is the government is generous here in spain they just take people land apparantly.