Eddie and Bertie

TomF

I got a good laugh when Eddie Hobbs, speaking of the vehicle registration tax on his most recent program, said it was, of all the taxes, the most machiavellian, the most devious and the most cunning. I wonder if Bertie ground his teeth in impotent fury when he heard those words?

jubbly

yeah, he probably had a fit.

What about the program though. Isnt this country rip off capital of Europe ? €4.3 billion recieved from motorist each year. €18 billion for a motorway network complete with tolls on top of that. That in itself is day light robbery.

€24 buck for a bottle of table wine . etc

GloriaH

Agreed, it was a brilliant use of the Adjective - the definition is totally applicable to this countrys current situation ''political expediency is placed above morality and deceit and is used to maintain authority and carry out the policies of the ruler ''- Bertie in Eddies case and The prince in Machiavelli's case. Go Eddie!

Cork

I think it has a lot do do with the government adding value when spending additional amounts of taxpayers money.

Besides execptions like Government buildings, knoock airport, ifsc - this has not happened.

IF VRT goes - It will need to be replaced. Bertie did try and introduce a property tax but there was an outcry from certain sections of the media.

But I think PRSI needs reform big time.

stag39

does anyone know of a repeat... i missed it

Cork

It does not even have a website on the RTE site.

Typical RTE. That would not happen on the BBC site. They'd be online polls, discussion forums etc.

RTE should repeat the show. The repeat Fair City for Heavens sake.

Airblazer

Has any1 acutally come out in protest against the government at this???
The tax on my car expired on 31st August and I'm refusing to pay for road tax if most of what's collected is being wasted...and ill spent on social welfare...
what does everybody else think?? I know some guys who have been driving around the last 3 years with no tax/nct as they say it's another rip off tax (this was before eddie hobbs ever said anything)..

President4Life

I don't recall the Rainbow government rushing to abolish VRT, or making the slightest criticism of it when in power.

Still, I commend the excellent Rip-Off Republic program. It's best arguments related to this issue and also, the Groceries Order. The G.O. is supposedly a ban on below-cost-selling. However, it is more than that. It bans retailers from passing wholesaler discounts onto their customers, unless the discounts are on a piece of paper called an "invoice". Nowadays, such discounts are never on an invoice, meaning that for the purpose of the G.O., the price that the retailer must not charge below is in fact 20% higher than the real cost of the unit concerned.

Again, the Rainbow parties refused to change this during their brief stint in power (without an election) in 1994-7. Indeed on the Dail Committee for Enterprise and Employment they actually opposed abolition of the G.O. Indeed FG even said on the committee that even the proposal to allow discounts from wholesalers to be passed on should be subjected to a review before a decision is made. Pathetic.

Thomond Pk

Airblazer wrote:

The tax on my car expired on 31st August and I'm refusing to pay for road tax if most of what's collected is being wasted...and ill spent on social welfare...

Pay your tax;

there will be more snakes than grass in 2007 for this government

Airblazer

Airblazer wrote:

Has any1 acutally come out in protest against the government at this???
The tax on my car expired on 31st August and I'm refusing to pay for road tax if most of what's collected is being wasted...and ill spent on social welfare...
what does everybody else think??

Well I'd like to ask the very simple question where the money to replace VRT or road tax if abolished is going to come from?
Even if you drop the revenue from it by say a notional 4.5 billion, that would be €1000 from every man woman and child in the country.
A family of 6 would have to pay an extra €6000.
Simple not meant to be accurate maths there just to reinforce the general question of who pays?

I suppose you could address waste in the public services for to bring in a few million(not a few billion) but escaping other taxes given what they pay for doesnt look possible.


So thats where I'd like to see the discussion on this thread going....
Rather than just moan moan moan and the expection of manna from heaven to replace a big indirect tax take-lets see a discussion along the lines of moan moan plus here are the solutions instead.
Bear in mind that if you put your solutions up here, we're such a small country with such high expectations(and more greed/something for nothing that I see than in a lot of our up to now benefactor Europe)-your solutions might get shot down as either impractical / un workable or just plain less acceptable to the masses than the devil we know.

A discussion like that would be be less blind than the one here to fore.

Airblazer

Airblazer wrote:

The tax on my car expired on 31st August and I'm refusing to pay for road tax if most of what's collected is being wasted...and ill spent on social welfare...
what does everybody else think?? I know some guys who have been driving around the last 3 years with no tax/nct as they say it's another rip off tax (this was before eddie hobbs ever said anything)..

If caught, you will get a summons for no tax/tax not displayed. You will get an on the spot fine, and if you don't pay that a summons to appear at District Court. That Court may tolerate a minute of a 'smash the system' lecture if you are that way inclined. But either way, you're breaking the law and you will get a conviction and a fine. If you refuse to pay the fine, a warrant will issue for your arrest and the Gardai will call around, though they will give you another opportunity to pay the fine. But if you still refuse to pay, they will have to execute the warrant.

The guys driving around for three years are just lucky they have not been caught for no tax - many Gardai will not look for the NCT Cert anyway, even if you are at a checkpoint. But it's like having 5 pints and driving home night after night - you're breaking the law, and not being caught doesn't make it right.

ambro25

Earthman wrote:

I suppose you could address waste in the public services for to bring in a few million(not a few billion) but escaping other taxes given what they pay for doesnt look possible.
etc.
A discussion like that would be be less blind than the one here to fore.

OK then - allow me to re-phrase the above slightly and orient the discussion so: "I suppose you could address waste by the public services for to bring in a few billion(not a few million)"

How about some accountability for the apparently vast differences between estimates (presumably) used for public contract tenders (motorways, LUAS, M50 etc.) and actual/eventual invoice for same? Or how about some obligation of result for the succesful private bidders for the tender? They know they'll get paid (State is ordering, after all), so why can't they take it on the chin if they under-estimate by more than -say- 20% (which as I recall is the Eropean average mentioned in the program)? etc, etc... Just a little bit more aggressivity/commercial nous from the politicos where spending is concerned, and a little less proselitism, would be welcome... :mad:

I for one refuse to lend an ear to those decrying Hobbs for not using exact-down-to-the-last-cent-exact figures: we're talking about billions in overspend, FFS - how can anyone be anal about a few millions, never mind a billion, when tax-payers' €€€ are squandered to that extent!?! No wonder the gvt is somewhat rumbled about the ROR series...

Hobbes

Deleted User wrote:

If caught, you will get a summons for no tax/tax not displayed. You will get an on the spot fine, and if you don't pay that a summons to appear at District Court.

Actually Revenue commissioners are entitled by law to impound the car on the spot if they catch you. Don't think the police have the same powers.

ambro25

ambro25 wrote:

How about some accountability for the apparently vast differences between estimates (presumably) used for public contract tenders (motorways, LUAS, M50 etc.) and actual/eventual invoice for same? Or how about some obligation of result for the succesful private bidders for the tender? They know they'll get paid (State is ordering, after all), so why can't they take it on the chin if they under-estimate by more than -say- 20% (which as I recall is the Eropean average mentioned in the program)? etc, etc... Just a little bit more aggressivity/commercial nous from the politicos where spending is concerned, and a little less proselitism, would be welcome... :mad:

I for one refuse to lend an ear to those decrying Hobbs for not using exact-down-to-the-last-cent-exact figures: we're talking about billions in overspend, FFS - how can anyone be anal about a few millions, never mind a billion, when tax-payers' €€€ are squandered to that extent!?! No wonder the gvt is somewhat rumbled about the ROR series...

Now thats a bit more like it.
The m50 cost debacle -wheres the blame for that? some on the politicians perhaps for not having the balls earlier to close off the lengthy avenues of delay and protest by objectors.There is a tendency to fob things like that off on courts rather than let votes be lost...
It's not as simple as that though either.Delays cost money as workers have to be paid.We have one of the highest paid work forces if not the highest in the E.U-it's a spiral arising out of expectations and genuine nedds from rising prices which at this stage has gone so far out of control, that ending it would upset too many apple carts.There is a fine line in this small island between attracting contractors to do jobs by offering them favourable terms and un attracting them by penalising them if they dont go about the business in an expeditious/effecient manner.
I know of mistakes that were made by planners in a cpo process too where by they ended up building on land that was outside of the CPO line and costing the government an out and out fortune as the land they hadnt legally cpo'ed went way up in price and they legally had to buy it.

ambro25

Earthman wrote:

It's not as simple as that though either.Delays cost money as workers have to be paid.We have one of the highest paid work forces if not the highest in the E.U-it's a spiral arising out of expectations and genuine nedds from rising prices which at this stage has gone so far out of control, that ending it would upset too many apple carts.

The cost of delays can be apportionned to the responsibility of same. Delayed material delivery? The contractor's fault. Delayed roll-out due to legal/illegal protests? The governement's fault (for not factoring same in the tender's expected delivery date, ergo costs). And where the governement's fault, and which cost as you rightly pointed out comes out of the public purse... heads roll - just to restore that little bit of incentive in civil servants to get the job done right first time. After all, they have a market monopoly - private contractors don't (they just don't get repeat biz and go to the wall). All of this can and should be planned.

Earthman wrote:

There is a fine line in this small island between attracting contractors to do jobs by offering them favourable terms and un attracting them by penalising them if they dont go about the business in an expeditious/effecient manner.

Favourable terms? I believe that the public character of a work contract is favour enough, when the contractor has innumerable ways to capitalize (financially and otherwise) on a sure-earner (invoice factoring springs to mind, if this is the english term which I am thinking about).

There is likewise a fine line between bidding a realistic amount for a contract to the risk of being pipped to the post by a competitor, and bidding by such a stupidly-low amount (i.e. knowingly below cost at tender-time and betting the farm on scale economies to come out tops at delivery) as to make sure the biz is bagged.

At the end of the day, it's contract negotiating and whilst I certainly do not know enought about IE public procurement systems, one thing I do know through the basest of common sense is that when a public market is understimated by 100s of percents, there's not been just one FUBAR, but a whole sh1tpot full of them.

Airblazer

Theseare just the answers i suspected i'd get...this is the problem with people today..everybody will bitch about what's going on but no-one is going to do anything...every1 is waiting for some1 else to make a stand and then they'll tag along like sheep...Bertie and co know this and know that after a few weeks this will all be blown over and people will continue on with their business as normal..and when the next election is on guess who will be in power..bertie and gang..why??.because the rest of the parties are even worse..have no leadership and are a poor alternative to FF..I bet you if every motorist in the country signed a petition that all money raised by road tac,VRT etc was to be spend only on roads/infrastructure and that if this didn't happen we would remove the party from power in the next election they wouldn't be long copping on..after all democracy is the will of the people ..and i don't see people out with placards calling for increases in petrol tax,tax increases,toll costs,vrt increases,do we???
So we don't have a true democracy now do we?? I don't recall voting for E-machines to be brought in, I don't recall voting for VRT to be brought in...

ambro25

ambro25 wrote:

Favourable terms? I believe that the public character of a work contract is favour enough, when the contractor has innumerable ways to capitalize (financially and otherwise) on a sure-earner (invoice factoring springs to mind, if this is the english term which I am thinking about).

Unfortunately it doesnt work that way.
There are economies of scale involved, the jobs in Ireland just arent as big generally and are more scattered location wise than in bigger countries-ergo the problem

There is likewise a fine line between bidding a realistic amount for a contract to the risk of being pipped to the post by a competitor, and bidding by such a stupidly-low amount (i.e. knowingly below cost at tender-time and betting the farm on scale economies to come out tops at delivery) as to make sure the biz is bagged.

Indeed I get what you are saying but also at the end of the day,I know of one contract that was handed out this year by a county council which was given to the lowest tender that happened to be a state body...
You and I will be told that was perfectly above board and no inside information changed hands but I dont believe it.
I'm told privately that said contract was so ridiculously under priced that said council are now footing the extra cost despite having turned down other tenders in favour of the ridiculous price.

Theres so many things and cosy relationships/methods engrained in Irish life,I'm afraid unravveling them takes a lot more effort than people for the most part are willing to put in.
Thats life.

At the end of the day, it's contract negotiating and whilst I certainly do not know enought about IE public procurement systems, one thing I do know through the basest of common sense is that when a public market is understimated by 100s of percents, there's not been just one FUBAR, but a whole sh1tpot full of them.

As I said,it's engrained in the "jobs for the boys" culture and system since the state started.
You'd be a very patient person to stick with your campaign to unravel it.
Note I'm generally agreeing with you but saying theres inherently several other factors people consider before curing the skinning of too many cats.Undoubtedly many will be continue to be skinned but some won't due in part to the pressure being put on, albeit the pressure is never enough.
Being Angry about it is in my view understandable of course.

ambro25

Airblazer wrote:

Theseare just the answers i suspected i'd get...this is the problem with people today..everybody will bitch about what's going on but no-one is going to do anything...etc

I'm not allowed to vote in the Republic of Ireland. At least not in elections, the outcome of which *might* have a bearing on how Irish public money is spent.

But note that I'm 'allowed' to pay my taxes (incl. Income, VAT, VRT, Road Tax etc.) like everyone else and contribute to the pot. Not bitching about that either, note - it's a normal fact of civilized life.

So, yeah - a bit p*ssed since I can't do nothing about it in direct terms, other than through civic disobediance, if I were to choose this avenue, and refuse to pay this or that tax... too upstanding for that

Personally, I prefer 'judicious financial advice' as to which taxes can I legitimately not pay, and which amounts/revenues can I legitimately substract from the taxable whole... ergo, indirectly, I am doing something about it: give less so they waste less

I'm slowly appreciating the extent and reach of the "Ole Boys" practices, its very naferious pervasiveness in all things Irish (all quaint and traditionnal that it may be)... In the end, it just means that when things *really* get to sh1t in a handbasket, it be time to move on again. I reckon Québec next

Victor

Airblazer wrote:

The tax on my car expired on 31st August and I'm refusing to pay for road tax if most of what's collected is being wasted...and ill spent on social welfare...

Car tax goes into the Local Government Fund, social Welfare is paid from the Social Insurance fund. The two do not mix.

You are guilty of what is known as gobshíteism - blabbering about something and getting basic facts wrong.

Airblazer

now who's being the gob****e...if you believe that then you're a muppet....pension funds were also in a different category and charlie didn't have any probs moving them now then his..so fuuck off and go to the kiddies section of something and come back in about 10 years when you're all grown up

Victor and airblazer you are both banned for a week for personal abuse.

pm me when the time is up and I will restore access

Cork

Earthman wrote:

Well I'd like to ask the very simple question where the money to replace VRT or road tax if abolished is going to come from?
Even if you drop the revenue from it by say a notional 4.5 billion, that would be €1000 from every man woman and child in the country.
A family of 6 would have to pay an extra €6000.
Simple not meant to be accurate maths there just to reinforce the general question of who pays?

I suppose you could address waste in the public services for to bring in a few million(not a few billion) but escaping other taxes given what they pay for doesnt look possible.
.

The major fault of the programme was about too much taxes and bad services. But how should we pay for such services?

Eddie ringing up doctors, plumbers and mechanics was a waste of time. Maybe the show needed people like David McWilliams to tease out issues instead of Eddie going around with an arrow thru his head,

I'm not even going to mention walking the dog.

dermo88

What people tend to forget that Ireland is a small economy on the periphery of Europe. Shipping in goods across the pond to a small country of 4 million will add costs. Lower production runs, economies of scale etc.

Wages are higher than Britain, yet, we have a lower income and social insurance tax rate. We also don't have two ripoff taxes, called Council tax and water rates, which affect all properties, not just the wealthy ones. Also, businesses absorb the bulk of local authority charges vis a vis the residential sector. That certainly boosts costs.

I would be in favour of having local authority property taxes levied on homes worth more than EUR500,000. If someone can afford to live there, they can afford to pay a property tax. Also, the growth levels in property prices have slowed down considerably, which was not the case in the mid 90's when Labour/FG planned it.

There are other taxes, such as alcohol and tobacco taxes, which are at or greater than Scandinavian levels in some cases, but the reasons for that are well known, and unavoidable in Ireland. But I feel that the exchequer is addicted to these products and their proceeds far more than the populace they purport to protect. The Irish exchequer obtains a far higher proportion of its revenues from this than even the UK.

Finally, and as I pointed out last night to friends

"I am only too happy to pay high prices for products and services which have become superior in many cases to those on offer in the UK. Just go back and remember how we struggled on £2.50 to £3.00 an hour in the mid 90's. Just remember that we did not have as much labour protection. I am happy to pay 4.50 a pint in a pub, knowing that the staff serving are being treated far better, work in far more hygienic conditions, and are not overworked as I was as we were as students. Thats progress, and the businesses that treated their workers like "mushrooms" (ref 1), deserve to go to the wall. Because I remember who the bad employers I had were, and so do many here"

But there is room for further deregulation, insurance, banking, pubs, retail, transport, are all areas that could benefit, and the consumer would gain.

(ref 1 - Mushrooms are kept in the dark and fed with excrement)

ambro25

dermo88 wrote:

What people tend to forget that Ireland is a small economy on the periphery of Europe. Shipping in goods across the pond to a small country of 4 million will add costs. Lower production runs, economies of scale etc.

Costs added for shipping - agree to an extent.
Lower production runs - disagree (stuff coming here is the same as coming into UK/FR/DE/etc, etc. - costs the same to the m'facturer).
Economies of scales (goes with the above) - disagree.

I've singled these out simply to underline the fact that, small as the Irish economy may be, it's still a behemoth compared to that of, say, Luxembourg - only over there, they have a smidgin' of a clue as to how to manage a national budget and ministerial apportioning of same, and not waste €bns down a bottomless pit called "incompetence". Likewise, their health, pension and social services are one of the absolute best in the world, never mind the EU - but their general level of personal and corporate taxation is comparable: why is that? because they waste less money and actually try to make it 'prosper' some before blowing it all on pharaonical projects.

Wages are higher than Britain, yet, we have a lower income and social insurance tax rate. We also don't have two ripoff taxes, called Council tax and water rates, which affect all properties, not just the wealthy ones. Also, businesses absorb the bulk of local authority charges vis a vis the residential sector. That certainly boosts costs.

True and a very good point.

I would be in favour of having local authority property taxes levied on homes worth more than EUR500,000. If someone can afford to live there, they can afford to pay a property tax. Also, the growth levels in property prices have slowed down considerably, which was not the case in the mid 90's when Labour/FG planned it.

Make that a €million, so you're not -as ever- hitting the middle class, but those people whom you believe are beginning to be classed 'wealthy'.

There are other taxes, such as alcohol and tobacco taxes, which are at or greater than Scandinavian levels in some cases, but the reasons for that are well known, and unavoidable in Ireland. But I feel that the exchequer is addicted to these products and their proceeds far more than the populace they purport to protect. The Irish exchequer obtains a far higher proportion of its revenues from this than even the UK.

Name an Exchequer/Finance Minister who isn't addicted to tobacco/alcohol taxes, and hasn't been so over the past 5 or more centuries, irrespective of the political system (democracy/royalty/etc.) system in place?

Finally, and as I pointed out last night to friends (etc)

Again, true and a very good point.

But there is room for further deregulation, insurance, banking, pubs, retail, transport, are all areas that could benefit, and the consumer would gain.

You do realise, of course, that you'd be wiping out entire sectors of the mainly service-based economy of Ireland if the EU competition was let in, don't you?

Ajnag

I'm not even going to mention walking the dog.

Yes, Uppity Eastern europeans!
How dare they look for a wage over 5 euro before their training is complete!
:rolleyes:

Incidently 5 euros was the wage payed to polish workers pre enlargement in Holland, and that was bad, pity the poor so and so, trying to survive this economy on that pittance.

Hobbes

dermo88 wrote:

What people tend to forget that Ireland is a small economy on the periphery of Europe. Shipping in goods across the pond to a small country of 4 million will add costs. Lower production runs, economies of scale etc.

Ireland was declared today the second wealthest country in the world. It is also the top (if I recall) for standard of living.

Wages are higher than Britain, yet, we have a lower income and social insurance tax rate. We also don't have two ripoff taxes, called Council tax and water rates,

Wages vary. For example SW Engineer wages are way higher (sometimes double) compared to Ireland. We do have water rates, depends a lot on wher you live.

"I am only too happy to pay high prices for products and services which have become superior in many cases to those on offer in the UK. Just go back and remember how we struggled on £2.50 to £3.00 an hour in the mid 90's. Just remember that we did not have as much labour protection. I am happy to pay 4.50 a pint in a pub, knowing that the staff serving are being treated far better, work in far more hygienic conditions, and are not overworked as I was as we were as students. Thats progress, and the businesses that treated their workers like "mushrooms" (ref 1), deserve to go to the wall. Because I remember who the bad employers I had were, and so do many here"

Except that is generally not the case. The high prices are changing how people party now. Everyone I know (and myself) just buy from an offlicense and drink at home then go out for an hour or two buying 1-2 drinks if the pub is lucky.

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

Ireland was declared today the second wealthest country in the world. It is also the top (if I recall) for standard of living.

We are playing catch up though as regards infrastructure which is a very costly business and one the E.U are going to be slower to pay for now that we are "rich".

Except that is generally not the case. The high prices are changing how people party now. Everyone I know (and myself) just buy from an offlicense and drink at home then go out for an hour or two buying 1-2 drinks if the pub is lucky.

Pub sales are only down 9% though whilst off licence sales are up by 7%.
It's not a huge revolution in habits, people are still going to pubs in droves,I know I had to push my way in last w/end.