Venezuela, Hugo Chavez

DadaKopf

Yes.

Security experts say increased security in Colombia, once the world's kidnap capital, has prompted guerrilla groups and other criminal organisations to extend their abduction activities across the border into Venezuela.

I looked around, too, Hobbes, and couldn't find anything. I wonder whether Thomond reads anything other than the FT. Thomond, you have to stop posting anecdodal stories about Chávez if you want to make any sensible argument - and the example you posted there just shows the escalation of violence in Colombia, not Venezuela per se.

That the UN Development Programme is said to have registered a decline in Venezuela's Human Development Index is something substantial to talk about.

Out of the three major indicators, Venezuelan life expectancy stood at 72.9 years -75.9 for women and 70 for men, as compared to 73.6 in the previous report. The adult literacy rate accounted for 93 percent -a tenth lower- and enrollment in primary, secondary and tertiary educational levels amounted to 75 percent.

Also, per capita Gross Domestic Product (GDP) totaled USD 4,919 as compared to USD 5,380 in the last report.

Seems bad, until you realise the statistics are from 2002/3, including GDP per capita - the same statistics from last year. That dip coincides with the fallout from the PDVSA lock-out. The economy has been improving since.

Venezuela's Human Development Index hasn't disimproved. It's rank on the league table has gone down relative to other countries. The most up-to-date HDI figure is for 2003, those statistics are still from 2002/3, so either this wire report is nonsense, or there has been a change in figures to reflect more accurate data analysis, but the HDI hasn't changed, only Venezuela's rank relative to other countries. Venezuela's HDI trend has been upwards since 1975; in 2000 and 2003 their HDI was the same, due to economic contraction because of the coup and lock-out. So, bacically, until 2003, it doesn't seem as if the Chavez administration has been doing anything to "run Venezuela into the ground", and when it did look shakey for the government, it wasn't its fault, it was the opposition's.

Anyway, the HDI isn't all that great. It doesn't include inequality in its measure and its statistics are inaccurate. It tends to mask other important things as a result - particularly it ignores the benefits created by Chávez's promotion of the informal economy and social reforms below/above the state; it also doesn't account for distribution of income - this is a bit of a double-whammy for Venezuela because Chavez is reviving the "social economy", which isn't measured yet, just like domestic housework isn't counted as work in standard GDP measures. Human Development is about people being free to make choices; Chavez seems to be redistributing political power to the people while strengthening the state to achieve this, too, but this can't be measured, really. Although gender equality and women's empowerment have been improving under Chávez's policies - one of the eight Millennium Development Goals.

Here's a better analysis of last year's report in relation to Venezuela.

Thomond Pk

DadaKopf wrote:

I looked around, too, Hobbes, and couldn't find anything. I wonder whether Thomond reads anything other than the FT. Thomond, you have to stop posting anecdodal stories about Chávez if you want to make any sensible argument - and the example you posted there just shows the escalation of violence in Colombia, not Venezuela per se.

Here's a better analysis of last year's report in relation to Venezuela.

I choose to quote Richard Lapper's Latin American section of the FT becuase his editorial style is vastly superior to any other European source on balancing the resource and sustainability issue as well as predicting outcomes. Left wing or Right wing if a government is corrupt his team will expose them through superior research and sources.

Unlike the above link which has an image of Hugo Chavez embossed onto a Venezeulan flag banner. The Bolivarian revolution happened in the late 1820's and since them a concept called 'Intellegent socialism' has been developed.

Hobbes

Thomond Pk wrote:

I choose to quote Richard Lapper's Latin American section of the FT becuase his editorial style is vastly superior to any other European source on balancing the resource and sustainability issue as well as predicting outcomes. Left wing or Right wing if a government is corrupt his team will expose them through superior research and sources.

However what you describe is an opinion piece, not a news story.

Btw, your kidnap story only one other site is reporting it and it is an exact copy of the first story. This seems to suggest it is porkies.

DadaKopf

This seems to suggest it is porkies.

Yep, ah rekkin'. Thomond, the FT may have resources to do whatever, but its ideological leaning is clear for all to see. You'll also see that nowhere have I said www.venezuelaanalysis.com is any less ideological, it's just a different news source and worth considering.

Criticising the news source for what it is is a crap argument, criciticing the FT (your only source of information, it seems) for reporting a story that hasn't turned up anywhere else seems fair given the article is so scant and opinionated that it can't be considered informative or mature journalism, particularly since no other new service has picked the story up. My links above simply relay statistics from the UN and one news source, the second one links to a bog standard criticism of the Human Development Index and shows up how various anti-Chávez groups have manipulated statistics to suit their ends by deliberately misinterpreting them and their accuracy. In short: Venezuelan human development hasn't declined in Venezuela, its rank has declined relative to other countries.

Your only response is: "The Bolívarian revolution happened in the late 1820's". Well, uh, um, check, mate. Yes, I'm familiar with Venezuela's history thanks very much. Chávez has called his movement the Bolívarian revolution in honour of Simón Bolívar. I'm also well aware of the political-economic history of the country - but what do you mean by "intelligent socialism"? I've heard of 'dependency theory', 'import substituting industrialisation', 'social democracy', 'embedded capitalism', things like this.

I think you're making stuff up as you go along.

Thomond Pk

Hobbes wrote:

However what you describe is an opinion piece, not a news story.

Btw, your kidnap story only one other site is reporting it and it is an exact copy of the first story. This seems to suggest it is porkies.

All of the stories/limks I posted related to events that would individually be considered the biggest scandel in decades if they occured in Europe.

You are arguing for the sake of it in relation to law and order having deteriorated so much that a serving diplomat missed abduction by good luck and not anything more.

Dadakopf if you consider that type of site anything other than a polemical propaganda sheet you are even less objective than I thought.

DadaKopf

Duh, what I said was I'm skeptical of all news sources, and anyone with sense tries to get a clearer picture by reading other sources of the same story. The story you posted wasn't reported anywhere else, so obvious questions about the story's source and motives have to be asked. Assuming the story is correct, the kidnapping was perpetrated by Colombian paramilitaries, which suggests the source of the problem is in Colombia, not Venezuela. Crimes like this happen all across Latin America (especially in Colombia), and it's not Chavez's fault it happened; the Caracas Metropolitan Police could be held responsible, but as regards the Venezuelan government, it's implemented a police reform Mission, which I linked to previously.

In any case, you don't show how this incident (if it happened) is connected with any upward spiral of violence and crime, or socio-political processes, in Venezuela. All you're doing is presenting an isolated incident, basically arguing "Chavez is bad because this is bad". Any sensible arguments would indicate trends, which was why I mentioned the UN Human Development Report.

Dadakopf if you consider that type of site anything other than a polemical propaganda sheet you are even less objective than I thought.

Actually, I thought the critique of last year's HDR on www.venezuelaanalysis.com was very good - the site has its motives, sure - but that particular article's criticisms of the HDR 2004 was based on the UNDP's own acknowledged criticisms of the index. All it did was bin the opposition's claims in light of those globally acknowledged limitations. At least the HDR offers data and trends to make arguments with.

If you want to make a sensible case, why don't you read reliable sources like Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International reports, UNDP Latin America reports etc?

All you're doing is awkwardly avoiding making anything approximating a sensible, rational argument. The irony is, you have a point, but you're making it all arseways.

DadaKopf

what do you mean by "intelligent socialism"?

Oh yeah, can you answer my question?

Hobbes

Thomond Pk wrote:

All of the stories/limks I posted related to events that would individually be considered the biggest scandel in decades if they occured in Europe.

True, but you haven't shown any basis to prove they are in fact correct, or you neglect to point out what the place like was beforehand and how much it has improved.

You are arguing for the sake of it in relation to law and order having deteriorated so much that a serving diplomat missed abduction by good luck and not anything more.

Your news story is most likely BS. The reason being is it is not being picked up by any other news source I can find. I don't take a single news source as gospel and neither should you.

The news stories you have been posting to have a serious slant to them (all media slants). Which is why I am questioning what you are posting as facts.

... I've got my popcorn, I'm sitting this out and watching yourself and Dada debate.

Thomond Pk

DadaKopf wrote:

Oh yeah, can you answer my question?

That as practiced by Countries such as France under Mitterand; Zapaterro of Spain and the earlier days of Blair government in the UK as well as Argentina, Uraguay and particularly contemporary Chile. It is a simple concept of not trying to re-invent the wheel and implement centralist polices that involve the systematic elimination of the right to the management of private property and private business.

This is a thread that will run for a while I am far from finished on our Bolivarian Baffoon.

DadaKopf

So Chavez' policies are 'sound' policies then? Or what?

Thomond Pk

DadaKopf wrote:

So Chavez' policies are 'sound' policies then? Or what?

Piaso,

Please explain your level of excavation.

MrJoeSoap

Hobbes wrote:

... I've got my popcorn, I'm sitting this out and watching yourself and Dada debate.

Agreed, I've been reading this thread for days here too. Not well up enough on the situation to post anything worthwhile but I am really enjoying the pov's and the links. Thanks lads.

DadaKopf

Thomond Pk wrote:

Piaso,

Please explain your level of excavation.

What?

I've explained enough for now. It's your turn.

Thomond Pk

DadaKopf wrote:

What?

I've explained enough for now. It's your turn.

You asked for an explanation of 'Intelligent socialism' you received same and then attempted without any supporting evidence to equate our Bolivarian Baffoon with statesmen. That supporting evidence is required I request further information be provided in relation to the outstanding.

Hobbes

I'd still like to hear what you think of Chavez policies and reform programs put in place? Good or bad? If bad why and what would be a better solution?

DadaKopf

Yeah, me too.

Thomond Pk

Reactionary;populist tokenism and ideologically driven as opposed to prudent and there is no evidence to prove the level of provision. The reality is that the Venezeulan govenments own statistical body has conclusively proven the poverty has risen since Ugo has taken office.

I am still waiting for you to illustrate the correlation between statesmen and chavez.

DadaKopf

I'd like you to show me the evidence for your arguments, please. Afterall, that's what Hobbes and I are asking for.

I'd also like you to explain to me, based on evidence, what policies you'd like to see Chavez implement, or, put another way, what policies you'd like to see implemented in Venezuela in the round. Domestic policies.

Jesus1222

Thomond Pk wrote:

If you were genuinely poor you wouldn't have a car; it would be no use for heating as the climate is warm/hot 12 months a year.

Hugo is a populist he has no long term vision for Venezeula and as opposed to investing money in fixed infrastructure he likes to do 'high vis' deals with aging despots like fidel. I am not saying that the crowd that tried to overthrow him are any better but Venezuela and Columbia are two very corrupt places. Hugo is no less corrupt than his Columbian counterpart or De Silva in Brazil for that matter.

Chile and possibly Uraguay and Aregentina are about the only model of good governance in Latin America at present.

Poor quality amateur analysis. Very poor. Read up on what has been happening in Argentina in the last number of years. Like in Bolivia, IMF imposed conditions provoked huge unrest. Argentina and Chile are both former neo-nazi dictatorships btw. And in recent years, Argentina has been a monument to poor governance. I have no idea where you got the idea that Aregentina is a good model for the rest of the continent.

Any links or more details on the Chavez corruption allegation?

Thomond Pk

You are asking a lot considering how little you have supplied yourself and given that you have never been to the Country. Have you been to Latin America or are your opinions based solely on one television programme and a bit of googling?

This evidence is being repeated yet again for you.

The numbers in the Poverty trap have risen by almost 10% since he took office; Source Venezerulan govenment.

Security is in crisis; Source FT; on attempted abduction of German diplomat.

Corruption; Source FT; Shell being charged with tax evasion and the Chavez negotiating with them simultaneously on a $2.7bn energy project. You can't play that both ways the charges are real and he is knowingly negotiating with a company that is known to have commited tax evasion or the charges are bogus and politically motivated making him dishonest and populist.

Autocratic; Source FT; Draining $5bn from the Central Bank foreign currency reserves and openly ignoring the advice of the Bank to spend on current spending in advance of next years election. Financial mismanagement that has all the hallmarks of a Haughey/Lynch maneouver and for which Venezeula will suffer like Ireland did between 1980 and 1989.

Unprecedented Interference and econmic stupidity; Source FT; The imposition of two state appointees on the board of every bank whether domestic or international.

Populist; Source Citgo. The offer to give discount gas to the poor of america; as we all know poor people don't have cars asnd citgo with a turnover of $400m don't have the distribtuion channels to implement it. They also haven't posted any audited accounts for over a year.

Confrontationalist; the Strike in 2002 can be largely down to Chavez and his confrontationalist style.

Backward; The images on the site you supplied and numerous telivision appearances against a background of the National Flag and all the bull**** about Simon Bolivar who incidentally did all the fighting in the 1820's and is far less regarded than Mariscal Sucre in historical circles.

Conclusion; You don't have an argument but are happy to simply put on the rose tinted shades and pick holes in his actions which can only be descibed as astonishing for their audacity. Before you attack the FT again it is the paper of choice for the leader of the Irish socialists one Patricio Conneco.

Take a look at contemporary Chile that is how to run a Latin American country in a word its called consensus.

Jesus1222

Thomond Pk wrote:

will you please read the articles; you as a moderator on boards have a responsibility to be objective. I note that you keep bringing this back to comparisons with the US; I also note that you are a moderator on the Islamic board. I am not going to even start to interpret that co-incidence.

How is he not being "objective" in his duties as moderator? I don't understand that one. Also, why would you interpret somebody moderating an Islamic board in the first place? What does that mean? What is that a co-incidence with?

If you're implying what I think you're implying it's deeply racist.

Thomond Pk

That has been dealt with stay on topic.

Jesus1222

Thomond Pk wrote:

Andy Webb is the FT correspondant for Venezuela who are probably the most left leaning financial/economic large scale news source in the World.

The Financial Times is a centre-right publication. It's no Wall Street Journal but it's hardly left-wing.

rsynnott

Thomond Pk wrote:

That has been dealt with stay on topic.

Hmm, so silly remarks like yours are on-topic, but when someone questions you on them they're offtopic?

And as far as I know, mods have no requirement to be objective off their own forums.

linux

Thomond Pk wrote:

Before you attack the FT again it is the paper of choice for the leader of the Irish socialists one Patricio Conneco.

The Financial Times and Irish Socialists???? are you taking the mick?

Thomond Pk

rsynnott wrote:

Hmm, so silly remarks like yours are on-topic, but when someone questions you on them they're offtopic?

To state that there isn't a correlation between Islamic discussion forums and an above average level of anti-americanism is burying the head in the sand. There was nothing stupid about that; whatsoever given the level of American military intervention in that region.

rsynnott wrote:

And as far as I know, mods have no requirement to be objective off their own forums.

As a moderator on another website discussion board there is always an understanding that all moderators represent that group and not their own opinions and clearly draw attention to their own opinions being exactly that.

I am very clearly of the opinion that a lot of the people hyping Chavez are doing so on the basis of his fiery anti-american foreign policy and not what he is doing domestically whjich can only be described as squandering oil revenues that belong to the Venezeulan people.

rsynnott

Thomond Pk wrote:

As a moderator on another website discussion board there is always an understanding that all moderators represent that group and not their own opinions and clearly draw attention to their own opinions being exactly that.

Well, run along back to your other message board, then That isn't the case here, as you will see if you read some threads. (It might be the case if he was a POLITICS moderator; he isn't, though).

Thomond Pk

You are asking a lot considering how little you have supplied yourself and given that you have never been to the Country. Have you been to Latin America or are your opinions based solely on one television programme and a bit of googling?

This evidence is being repeated yet again for you.

The numbers in the Poverty trap have risen by almost 10% since he took office; Source Venezerulan govenment.

Security is in crisis; Source FT; on attempted abduction of German diplomat.

Corruption; Source FT; Shell being charged with tax evasion and the Chavez negotiating with them simultaneously on a $2.7bn energy project. You can't play that both ways the charges are real and he is knowingly negotiating with a company that is known to have commited tax evasion or the charges are bogus and politically motivated making him dishonest and populist.

Autocratic; Source FT; Draining $5bn from the Central Bank foreign currency reserves and openly ignoring the advice of the Bank to spend on current spending in advance of next years election. Financial mismanagement that has all the hallmarks of a Haughey/Lynch maneouver and for which Venezeula will suffer like Ireland did between 1980 and 1989.

Unprecedented Interference and econmic stupidity; Source FT; The imposition of two state appointees on the board of every bank whether domestic or international.

Populist; Source Citgo. The offer to give discount gas to the poor of america; as we all know poor people don't have cars asnd citgo with a turnover of $400m don't have the distribtuion channels to implement it. They also haven't posted any audited accounts for over a year.

Confrontationalist; the Strike in 2002 can be largely down to Chavez and his confrontationalist style.

Backward; The images on the site you supplied and numerous telivision appearances against a background of the National Flag and all the bull**** about Simon Bolivar who incidentally did all the fighting in the 1820's and is far less regarded than Mariscal Sucre in historical circles.

Conclusion; You don't have an argument but are happy to simply put on the rose tinted shades and pick holes in his actions which can only be descibed as astonishing for their audacity. Before you attack the FT again it is the paper of choice for the leader of the Irish socialists one Patricio Conneco.

Take a look at contemporary Chile that is how to run a Latin American country in a word its called consensus.

linux

Thomond Pk wrote:

This evidence is being repeated yet again for you.

Now your just Trolling, it could be excusable if you were new to a site or something,but the fact you have said you are a moderator on another website makes it inexcusable. :rolleyes:

Thomond Pk

Absolutely not,

If you read through the thread I have made each one of those points individually and have supplied links to each of them with the exception of one that one being that Pat Rabbitte reads the FT.

I have never seen so many posters come down so hard one contributor on any forum;
You have not supplied one fact or link or reference to back up your own sniping activities. I also note that you have a sum total of 6 posts which either makes you a multiple identity user or a serious lurker.