Venezuela, Hugo Chavez

democrates

Thomond Pk wrote:

Whether the money is deposited or used to buy an election it is still a serious breach of the principal of seperation of powers which are designed to prevent totalitarianism.
...the President of the Central Reserve is the only person qualified to make that call and was over-ruled so that Chavez can buy the next election. This happened in Ireland in 1977 with crazy tinkering with the state finances leading to an inflationary bubble and bust that wasn't solved for 17 years.

That seperation of powers was only recently introduced it in england remember, it's not an anti-totalitarianism measure, it's to make interest rate stability independant of the vagaries of government. I accept your point that Chavez has diluted the central banks capacity to maintain macro-economic stability, but whereas you imply his motivation was 100% to buy the next election and nothing else matters to him, I look at what he's doing with it to build the micro-economy and can see how this is intended to bring long term benefits for the people.

Pre-election budgets always get the same criticism from the opposition btw, but you don't conclude from those accusations that they bring zero benefits to the people. And comparing Ireland and Venezuela is pointless, there are too many differences to allow reliable predictions.

Thomond Pk wrote:

His solution is to drive the major players and High Net Worth Individuals's out of the country;taking all the resources and management expertise with them. The only thing that has prevented a full scale melt-down has been the oil spike; if oil falls below $40 per barrell Venezeula's economy will be in serious trouble and there will be no external capital willing to deal in that country.
...he is simply rewarding tax evasion with a juicy $2.7bn contract. In Ireland Shell couldn't tender because they would not have a valid C2 cert.

Don't you see the contradiction? On the one hand you say he's wrong for driving out all capital, at the same time he's wrong for dealing with Shell.

And how can you say he's rewarding tax evasion, isn't he looking for that tax to be paid? What is staggering is you seem totally unwilling to explain why Shell are dealing with Chavez if all you say is true. Tell us, why?

As for those leaving, they can't take all the oil (as they had been), they can't take the land, the trees, the rain, the crops, and they can't take the people. As for management expertise worker co-operatives don't need to play the stock market, they just have to manage production and there's enough people with enough knowlege, experience, and now renewed motivation to do that. Besides, it's not rocket science, even where gaps arise these can be filled.

Thomond Pk wrote:

Why should we take what is said about this politician with a grain of salt?
Chavez is more comparable to Castro than any other politician globally with the exception of possibly Mugabe. If you want a good comparable model try LuLa or Kirchener in Argentina.
In his foreign Chavez is directly to Catro and has cost Bolivia a President and had a significant destabalising role in both Columbia and Equador.

Such comparisons are a trick. Say he's like 'X', and we all know 'X' is bad therefore Chavez is bad. Let's stick to the facts about Chavez, and facts from good sources not hearsay and conjecture.

Thomond Pk wrote:

All great in theory but where are the results Venezeula is poorer than when he took office despite oil prices rising nearly 300% over the period; Venezeula should be booming like the other producers of a similar scale.

Instead it is heading for further decline

I gave one example from the BBC where they report "Democratic planning is such a powerful lever that even with rather outdated technology we have managed to increase production by 11%".
Seems the workers have more management expertise than managers like to think. If you think about it a lot of management expertise is related to playing the stock market, M&A etc, and much of the rest of it is about getting work out of people who know they are getting the sh1tty end of the stick.

He's not getting rid of private property in the way Lenin did, only revitalising productive capacity that has been abandoned. Even Lenin saw how pure communism caused famine and had to back-peddle and introduce the new economic program, but just when entrepreneurs were making progress Stalin took over and wrecked everything.

He would do well to state clearly that entrepreneurs will be allowed to continue as business owners/manager unmolested, and I don't know whether he's said so or not. If not, I'm sure you'll agree he's not helping the people if he allows uncertainty to grow around that issue.

These things will take time, Venezuela couldn't possibly be booming now as they are rebuilding their economy from the ground up while reducing their dependance on foreign capital. Add to that the fact that a lot of community activity does not show up on national accounts even though it improves the lives of people.

I'm still keeping an open mind because I can't read his mind any more than you, but whereas you seem to believe he's wrong simply because his actions are contrary to western capitalist ideology, I say if he and/or his successors remain steadfast and continue these reforms Venezuela may just show the rest of the world how enterprise can work for the people instead of sovereign nations being divided and conquored by global capital.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Did you try message boards?

Have you?

A Venezuelan friend of mine who still lives there, told me his cousin was thrown in jail and tortured for protesting the new government. You probably wont find that many dissenting voices because they are being silenced by the current government.

You have anything to back what you are saying up apart from hearsay? I mean I can claim my friends cousin has flying monkeys.

You actually have a report of this? The only thing I could find remotely close is the latest defamation laws. (http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/americas/venezuela.html).

lazydaisy

Hobbes,

I was answering the OP who was looking for books in English on the subject. I was suggesting the message boards on craigslist miami because there maybe people there who can direct him. Miami is filled with Venezuelans who have fled the country and many of them speak English. ANd many who want the world to know about what is really going on.

Well, Chavez has closed down all radio stations except for his own one. I will certainly ask my friend there to supply me with verification of what he is saying. I dont know if he has documentation of his cousin's torture and imprisonment. But he's not a liar and I believe him.

Incidentally, I met someone yesterday who was in Venezuela last week and this week and he told me that Chavez had just made the US dollar an illegal currency in Venezuela and the economy has got to pot.

I tried to click on your link but it says file not found.

DublinWriter

lazydaisy wrote:

Well, Chavez has closed down all radio stations except for his own one.

No, he closed down all the private TV/Radio stations which were either accepting huge political donations from his US-backed political rivals or owned by them.

The only ones running now are the offical RTE-like state broadcasters who are largly impartial and balanced. Yes, he does have a weekly live phone-in talk show on one of the state channels - what elected leader do you know who would have the balls to do that? To say they are 'his' stations is rubbish and makes him sound like a third-world dictator. Never forget the fact that he is a democratically elected president.

I don't blame him for this action after seing the way the private media played an active part in destablising his democratically elected government and acted as mouth-pieces for the US-backed junta that tried to depose him.

The key-pivot point that triggered the coup against him was the heavily edited news footage that the private TV companies showed and alledged that troops were firing on anti-Chavez demonstrators - which they were clearly not when you see *all* the footage. This incident lit the fuse and caused massive civil unrest.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Incidentally, I met someone yesterday who was in Venezuela last week and this week and he told me that Chavez had just made the US dollar an illegal currency in Venezuela and the economy has got to pot.

I tried to click on your link but it says file not found.

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/americas/venezuela.html

But then you could of just looked at it via the menus on the side. I'm sure considering all the human rights abuses yous are all claiming it would be the first place to look for the report.

Again with hearsay. Do you not think the world press would report that US dollar is not to be used in the country? Yet I have heard no such report and I cannot find any report on this at all.

Do you have any report of this beyond a "friend who was there" ? I think your friend is full of it.

DublinWriter

lazydaisy wrote:

Incidentally, I met someone yesterday who was in Venezuela last week and this week and he told me that Chavez had just made the US dollar an illegal currency in Venezuela and the economy has got to pot.

Yeah, and the problem is...?

You can't walk into a shop in Ireland and pay for your good in US Dollars, so it's a mute point. Venezuela have a currency of their own.

Do you think it's a bad thing that he doesn't want Venezuela to become like post-Communist Russia with a black economy trading in US dollars and causing hyper-inflation and destabalisation of the native currency?

Zombrex

People seem to be forgetting the Chavez took over a country with deep seated corruption with a police force and army that could pretty much do what they liked.

I think it is a bit short sighted to suddenly notice these things and to then assume Chavez has caused them. Because Venezuela didn't turn into a utopia over night people seem to think Chavez is some how evil or corrupt?? As far as I can see Chavez is attempting to deal with decades of abuse and corruption as best he can. Anyone think Venezuela was better off before ... its like saying Cuba was better off before Castro :rolleyes:

What ever you say about men like Castro and Chavez (and I don't actually think they are that similar) or the methods they use, they actual are interested in trying to help the people of their country. I don't condone the violence that the Castro regim used, but anti-Castro supporters want Cuba back to the way it was before, which suited them fine cause they were rich and powerful, but left the majority of Cubans living in a hell hole. We see the same in Venezuela, the people who want Chavez out aren't doing it for the good of their country, they are doing it for their own interests. They are the corrupt ones, not Chavez.

lazydaisy

Anti-Castro supporters do not want Cuba back the way it was before Castro when Baptista was in power. Where did you come up with that? Have you spoken to any of them? Cuba had the largest middle class [per capita -keep in mind its a small island] in the world at the time Castro took power and removed power from Baptista.

How many Venezuelans have you spoken to? Have you ever been there? Do you have any first hand accounts of the country or its citizens? How it developed as a nation. If you knew anything about how elections are managed in Latin America youd know something about stability and chaos.

Making the US dollar illegal in Venezuela is the equivalent of making sterling illegal in the Republic of Ireland. They are neighboring countries where a lot of business is exchanged. Also -illegal is not the same as a non currency. You can still exchange dollars or sterling in a bank in Ireland. You can't do that in Venezuela now. Incidentally this is one of the frist things Castro did when he assumed power.

How many of you own property or your parents? You do realise that if you were in Venezuela you would be considered wealthy? And that if you were in Cuba it would have been confiscated?

He has closed down all the radio stations. First of all, it is only your opinion that RTE is fair and balanced. Secondly, you also have Today FM, and all the other news you import from Britain. Secondly RTE Radio and TV has had a long tradition of censorship, and wasnt always fair and balanced. Ask your parents. There is a ton of documentation on this. If you dont believe me look it up.

You can think my friend is full of it or the many other Venezuelans and Cubans who have lived there and listen to RTE or whatever from people who know nothing about the country. That's fine. Its not my job to convince you and quite frankly I dont think your basis for supporting Chavez is based on anything more substantial than whatever hearsay you get from RTE or TG4. If that. What is your opinion based on? Do you think that the people who live in the barrios are no longer living there? Think again.

There is no doubt that Venezuela needed a lot of reform before Chavez. Its prisons were a mess. The governement did not have authority over its military, there was unbeliveable poverty, more than any of us can understand. My friend, you know the one who is full of crap, worked with the jesuits to provide supplies and education to the rural areas and he told me that they were so poor that they could only afford pasta. The mothers would eat the pasta and feed the water it was boiled in to the children so as a result there is a lot of brain damage caused by malnutrition. But then again, that's just hearsay from a witness who is full of crap. You people just want to believe what you want and sustain your romantic fantasies about revolutionaries. What are you 21 years old being supported by Mammy and the grants you get from the government for college that you hardly ever show up for? Go back to school. Get an education. Your ignorance is breathtaking.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Making the US dollar illegal in Venezuela is the equivalent of making sterling illegal in the Republic of Ireland.

Sterling is illegal in Ireland. Or rather not valid currency, instead you exchange it with banks/companies who accept it.

Unless you are implying that US currency cannot be used as exchanged currency? But again, you haven't actually shown us any real report that the currency has been made illegal and considering that the US is one of the major oil buyers it is very unlikely.

You can't do that in Venezuela now.

Again please back up with actual facts instead of hearsay.

How many of you own property or your parents? You do realise that if you were in Venezuela you would be considered wealthy? And that if you were in Cuba it would have been confiscated?

Ok, but are you implying that this is the case in Venezuela? Again back up with facts. The only thing that has been shown so far is where unused land is taken back to be used for the good of the country, and even then only privately owned land has recently started to be taken.

He has closed down all the radio stations.

Sources please.

Its not my job to convince you

Actually its part of the politics forum charter to back up anything you say with facts when asked. If you don't want to convince me then don't bother posting, if you have details then post them. Hearsay doesn't cut it here.

It is only ignorance if you ignore the facts. You have yet to post any.

DadaKopf

There is no doubt that Venezuela needed a lot of reform before Chavez. Its prisons were a mess. The governement did not have authority over its military, there was unbeliveable poverty, more than any of us can understand. My friend, you know the one who is full of crap, worked with the jesuits to provide supplies and education to the rural areas and he told me that they were so poor that they could only afford pasta. The mothers would eat the pasta and feed the water it was boiled in to the children so as a result there is a lot of brain damage caused by malnutrition. But then again, that's just hearsay from a witness who is full of crap. You people just want to believe what you want and sustain your romantic fantasies about revolutionaries. What are you 21 years old being supported by Mammy and the grants you get from the government for college that you hardly ever show up for? Go back to school. Get an education. Your ignorance is breathtaking.

Is this pre-Chavez, or what your friend saw is happening now? Maybe severe malnutrition and its effects among the poor is the reason why the government has spent more and more money on education and child-feeding programmes? Maybe they're not eating caviar, but what you describe is the horror of chronic poverty as a result of capitalism and, in Venezuela's case, of a system based on racism and elitism.

What is interesting is that knowing someone who "saw" things for themselves confers authority on the person who says it, regardless of whether what they saw is actually accurate. I was at a conference recenently where an expert in overseas volunteering, after much research, found that people who went abroad to volunteer usually only experienced - i.e. saw - what they expected to see. She gave an example: a girl was asked her observations on her time spent living with a poor community in Ecuador; she said they were so poor they didn't own televisions, that she'd love to bring televisions to them; she took a photo of the small shanty town but she missed one crucial little detail, which eluded her for the weeks she was there - a large number of the houses in the town had huge TV arials, they watched TV all the time and powered them by tapping into the national grid.

Having a friend who has seen things, or seeing things yourself, has to be taken with a pinch of salt. True, experience is a vital part of knowledge, but it's by no means objective. My knowledge of Venezuela comes from reading many, many academic journals, books, websites, World Bank and Economist reports etc. Also sources that have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'll freely admit I don't know what it's like to actually be there - but the question I keep coming back to, personally, is "what it's like to be there for whom?". Venezuela is a different country to its urban and rural middle and elite classes than it is to the urban poor, and the rural poor. My information mainly comes from rigorous studies by respected academics active on the ground, who daily meet people rich and poor and back everything up with evidence. Now, they're never free of bias either, but I'd trust those more than news reports and what friends say.

So I dunno who's being ignorant...

lazydaisy

Hobbes

Please tell us idiots who are full of crap what is the difference between hearsay and what is reported by journalists? So are you telling me that I should believe more about Northern Ireland from British, American, and Irish media than from what is said by people who actually have to live with the situation? And before you say yes, remember that Sinn Fein was banned from RTE for a number of years.

I guess you give no credence to oral histories either. Who has credbililty in your eyes,the white upper middle class men who work for RTE and BBC? And not the people who actually have/had to live with a situation?

So I guess I shouldn't post things about people's experiences and just about what gets reported on the media you approve of? Now that is elitist.

Yes that's right. You cant exchange your US currency in the banks according to this person who had to fly out of venezuela so he could exchange his curency before he flies back in again.

What my friend saw/knows was pre-Chavez. My friend is Venezuelan incidentally. He is not a European or American who volunteers there. He lives there and his family has been there pre-Bolivar. I've been there pre-Chavez and I dont even bother reporting what I saw because I know everyone here wont believe me because I'm not a reporter with some newspaper or institution they approve of. They'll tell me Im full of crap even though they havent been there themselves and only trust the word of upper middle class men who have been to Oxford or Cambridge and not the word of the common man/woman.

I dont know what is happening with private property there now. I do know that anyone who owns anything is considered wealthy.

So you read Spanish? You can get these sources directly? My friends who are there are also respected academics, but it shouldnt matter. People have their experiences and their credibilty does not rest on their professions. For me to think so, would be elitist and unfair.

Someone who sees things is a witness and as anyone who knows anything about history will tell you that the witness is the key to getting any kind of understanding.

Also there is a difference between illegal and not being a valid currency. Illegal criminalises the use of something.

Incidentally what FACTS can you contribute? You tell me Im full of crap and dont back it up.

Zombrex

lazydaisy wrote:

Anti-Castro supporters do not want Cuba back the way it was before Castro when Baptista was in power. Where did you come up with that?

A little thing called the Bay of Pigs ... :rolleyes:

lazydaisy wrote:

Have you spoken to any of them?

I have actually, does that improve or disprove what I am saying? :rolleyes:

lazydaisy wrote:

Making the US dollar illegal in Venezuela is the equivalent of making sterling illegal in the Republic of Ireland.

That would be great if he actually did make it illegal to exchange dollars :rolleyes:

What actually happened is that it was made illegal to exchanged dollars on the black market at non-government approved exchange rates. Quite a bit different, and if this is your source on the ground I would seriously question the information you have been getting

lazydaisy wrote:

You can still exchange dollars or sterling in a bank in Ireland. You can't do that in Venezuela now.

Yes you can, just not on the black market ...

lazydaisy wrote:

Incidentally this is one of the frist things Castro did when he assumed power.

Which was reversed in 1993 ... now try importing children's medical supplies into Cuba ... you might find a US battleship in your way ...

lazydaisy wrote:

How many of you own property or your parents? You do realise that if you were in Venezuela you would be considered wealthy? And that if you were in Cuba it would have been confiscated?

Its called Communism ...

How many Americans die each year because they cannot afford proper medical health-care, health-care they would have gotten for free and at a much better quality in Cuba ... we could play this game all day :rolleyes:

lazydaisy wrote:

He has closed down all the radio stations.

Actually no he hasn't ...

http://www.unionradio.com.ve

nor has he closed down the private TV stations despite the fact that they and their owners, were part of a military coup attempt against him and despite the fact that anti-Chavez politicons have repeatable attempted to close down state owned television stations during important votes and referendums.

lazydaisy wrote:

What is your opinion based on?

The truth.

Based on the countless inaccurate and false statements you have made about Venezuela maybe you should be asking what your opinions are based upon ...

lazydaisy wrote:

The governement did not have authority over its military, there was unbeliveable poverty, more than any of us can understand.

Is it worse or better under Chavez?

lazydaisy wrote:

Your ignorance is breathtaking.

Maybe you should read an (independent) news paper once in a while instead of believe the anti-Chavez propaganda (see above), and maybe you should ask yourself why are these anti-Chavez people so determined to get rid of him? For the good of the country or for their own interests?

I am certainly not saying Chavez is a saint (or Castro for that matter), but at least he is trying, he is much better than what they had, and the people who want to take him down are not doing it so they can do a better job for the good of the country, they are doing it to retain the corrupt power they had before he took over (just like in Cuba).

Before this interesting read continues,I'd like to remind everyone again to read the charter and think before posting anything remotely abusive to the poster.

lazydaisy

The Bay of Pigs, initiated by Kennedy and his supporters does not reflect the opinion of the millions of Cuban refugees who do not support and were robbed by Castro. Nor does it suggest that they wanted things back the way there were under Baptista. It suggests that the Kennedy Administration, probably spurred on by the cold war, wanted to oust Castro.

Can you identify some independent newspapers? Please tell me, who should I trust?

Actually in Cuba, dollars are still officially illegal. They are used on the black market, which Castro also runs.

Im aware that it is called communism.

How many Americans die each year because they can't afford healthcare? You tell me. Also remind me what the US healthcare system has to do with this. You lost me.

It's a good thing that Cuba has such a good healthcare system with the poor diet they are on they'll need it. And they dont get it for free - they have paid for it in the involuntary donations of their property and money of people who no longer live there.

I am certainly not saying Chavez is a saint (or Castro for that matter), but at least he is trying, he is much better than what they had, and the people who want to take him down are not doing it so they can do a better job for the good of the country, they are doing it to retain the corrupt power they had before he took over (just like in Cuba).

Oh so you can read motive now? How do you know this? How is it better? How do you know the people who are resisting Chavez werent also resisting or trying to change the corrupt power that was there before. Please feel free to elaborate more on the corrupt power that was there before. And so Hobbes doesnt get upset, provide your sources.

Can you find out how many of the population own televisions in Venezuela and what echalon of the society that is since you brought up television stations. Thanks.

Zombrex

lazydaisy wrote:

It suggests that the Kennedy Administration, probably spurred on by the cold war, wanted to oust Castro.

The vast majority of "soldiers" used during the bay of pigs were anti-Castro cubans recruited exactly because they were anti-Castro Cubans, with the purpose of removing Castro from power.

lazydaisy wrote:

Can you identify some independent newspapers? Please tell me, who should I trust?

Well the Irish Times is a good start ... the BBC News online is also good, if a little dumbed down...

lazydaisy wrote:

Actually in Cuba, dollars are still officially illegal. They are used on the black market, which Castro also runs.

And its illegal to throw snowballs in Utha ... once something has been decriminalised it is illegal in name only. What is still very illegal is importing medical supplies into Cuba.

Of course this has very little to do with Venezuela cause Chavez hasn't made dollars illegal!

lazydaisy wrote:

Im aware that it is called communism.

So are most people here, so they don't need a lecture on the status of private property in a Communist country ...

lazydaisy wrote:

Also remind me what the US healthcare system has to do with this.

I would ask what has the status of private property in Cuba got to do with this??

lazydaisy wrote:

It's a good thing that Cuba has such a good healthcare system with the poor diet they are on they'll need it.

Its a good thing they have such a good healthcare system because the US military has blocked the vast majority of medical supplies from entering the country.

lazydaisy wrote:

And they dont get it for free

No actually they get it for free

lazydaisy wrote:

How do you know the people who are resisting Chavez werent also resisting or trying to change the corrupt power that was there before.

Cause i read newspapers and watch television ... you want to show me they were? Maybe your source on the ground that told you dollars are illegal and all private radio stations were closed can help you out.

lazydaisy wrote:

Can you find out how many of the population own televisions in Venezuela and what echalon of the society that is since you brought up television stations. Thanks.

There are 4,100,000 televisions and 10,750,00 radios in Venezuela, a country with a population of 25 million. Thats 161 televisions for every 1000 people which is smack bang in the middle of world rankings. Does this have a point?

BTW are you retracting your statement that he closed down all private radio stations .... ??

DadaKopf

Hey, lazydaisy, here's all the statistics relating to Venezuela you'll need to answer those questions: http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/countries.cfm?c=VEN.

Statistics are never perfect, but it's the world tome of economic and social indicators. No stats on television ownership, though. Also, I don't know what point you hope to prove with it.

Anyway, interesting sounds coming from the Venezuelan Central Bank:

Venezuela’s gross domestic product grew 17.3% in 2004, closing the year with a "notable recuperation" according to the Central Bank of Venezuela. The oil economy, which accounts for 80% of the country's exports, experienced an 8.7% growth rate. This growth "constitutes the highest level reached since the Central Bank of Venezuela began to calculate the figure (GDP)," said the Central Bank.

The average growth rate for non-oil economy was 17.8%. All non-oil sectors demonstrated "significant growth", with a particularly strong showing in construction (32.1%), financial institutions and insurance (26.6%), transportation and warehousing, (26.4%) commerce and repair services (25.5%), and manufacturing and industry (25.4%). Mining (11.8%), communications (10.2%), and electricity and water (6.9%) also registered notable growth rates. The private sector grew 18.6% and the public sector grew 11.0%.

According to analysts in the Central Bank of Venezuela, this economic growth can be attributed to a wide array of factors. In addition to having recovered from the two-month oil industry shut-down (December 2002-February 2003), in which the economy contracted 7.7%, the Venezuelan economy has grown due to an increase in the demand for consumer goods and an increase in investment. Inflation, unemployment and interest rates have also decreased, enabling consumers to spend more and businesses to continue to borrow at a healthy rate. Economic agencies have also benefited from preferential financing.

[...]

Oscar Salcedo, an economist for Sintesis Financiera, an economic consultancy in Caracas, acknowledges that the growth of the Venezuela's economy is in part due to its recovery from the oil strike. However, he notes that the economy was able to continue to grow throughout the remainder of 2004 due to government spending and low interest rates. "A rebound was present, but saying that it was the main cause of the growth would be unfair," he emphasized.

Currently, Venezuela has a surplus of $14.6 billion, an increase of over $3 billion from 2003, when the surplus amounted to 11.4 billion dollars.

url=http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1512]Source[/url

lazydaisy

I am aware of the trade embargo between Cuba and the US. But tell me where Cuba gets its medical supplies from? Given that they have an admirable system, I'm assuming they have medical supplies. How do they pay for them? And where does the money come from?

The vast majority of "soldiers" used during the bay of pigs were anti-Castro cubans recruited exactly because they were anti-Castro Cubans, with the purpose of removing Castro from power.

America [Kennedy] said they would back them [exiled Cuban soldiers] up and then left them there to die. Yes they were anti-castro exiled Cubans who wanted to oust Castro, Im not disputing that, but Cubans did not want and still do not want things to be the way they were when Baptista, a US puppet dictator, in case you dont know who he was, was in power which is what you had claimed.

You only read the Irish Times and BBC Online? The Irish Times is not regarded as a world class paper. It's a paper with a mostly Dublin middle class readership. Maybe you should look at the Guardian and the Times, La Monde, Il Corriere, The Washington Post, The New York Times, and some other sources that have a more global readership. Perhaps you should turn into on-line radio braodcasts too. Maybe you should even take a look at some Miami papers.

I didnt lecture anyone on the status of private property in Cuba and I don't like your tone. Mentioning it developed from the flow of the dialogue here because people before me had brought up Castro. I still dont know what the alleged American death count due to not affording health care has to do with anything.

Dadakopf,

Thank you for those stats. I wasnt trying to prove anything with the TV stats, but Wicked brought up all the television broadcasts and I wanted to know how many people were able to see them.

How free is the Venezuelan Central Bank to tell the truth or is it also subject to the propaganda machine? Do you know and if now how can someone find out?

Zombrex

lazydaisy wrote:

But tell me where Cuba gets its medical supplies from?

Well they used to get a lot of them from Europe until American companies, as part of American globalisation, bought up a lot of the European companies and now refuse to sell to Cuba. Other than that Cuba has had to survive on its own initative. I assume you have heard the Mengitis B vaccine, which was developed in Cuba. Though maybe you haven't since AFAIK Americans aren't actually allowed take it due to the trade embargo :rolleyes:

lazydaisy wrote:

And where does the money come from?

From Cuban exports ... where does most money come from?

lazydaisy wrote:

You only read the Irish Times and BBC Online? The Irish Times is not regarded as a world class paper.

Actually it is, mostly because it is one of the few papers in the world that is not run or controlled by a media company.

lazydaisy wrote:

Maybe you should even take a look at some Miami papers.

Maybe you should read the Irish Times ...

lazydaisy wrote:

I still dont know what the alleged American death count due to not affording health care has to do with anything.

Its to do with the idea that Cuba is a communist hell hole, despite the fact that if you are a Cuban refugee you are far more likely to die poor and sick in American than you were in Cuba. But I suppose its better to die free (and ignored and sick and poor) :rolleyes:

lazydaisy wrote:

Wicked brought up all the television broadcasts and I wanted to know how many people were able to see them.

Actually you brought up the claim that Chavez had closed private radio ... I brought TVs up as evidence that, despite your claims, Chavez isn't closing down private media outlets, radio or TV, even the ones that tried to over thrown him

BTW are you actually going to get round to backing up or retracting the propaganda you spouted in the previous posts?

lazydaisy

Where do they get their medical supplies from? I'll ask it again. I didn't ask where they used to get them from. We're talking about the present tense right?

From Cuban exports ... where does most money come from?

What do Cubans export besides people? Rum, cigars, anything else? What labour is involved in that? Who pays them and with what? How much of it is taxed? Can the government accrue sufficient money from this given the population count over an extended period of time?

Most countries get the money from a variety of sources, one of which is exports. These sources include but are not exclusive of, income tax, other taxes, productivity, labour, interest, domestic trade & sales, and tourism.

Actually it is, mostly because it is one of the few papers in the world that is not run or controlled by a media company.

No it isnt. Its readership is middle class Dubliners. And homesick members of the diaspora. Please tell us, who does control it?

Maybe you should read the Irish Times ...

Why, so I can be as knowledgeable as you are?:rolleyes:

Its to do with the idea that Cuba is a communist hell hole, despite the fact that if you are a Cuban refugee you are far more likely to die poor and sick in American than you were in Cuba. But I suppose its better to die free (and ignored and sick and poor) :rolleyes:

You called it a communist hell hole, not me. I didnt realise this was about comparing the health systems of American and of Cuba? How are you more likely to die poor and sick in one country than in another? Are you basing this on a per capita probability? [In the US its actually the lower middle classes who have the toughest time with healthcare, not the poor or the rich]. But I guess you wouldnt know that since all you read is the Irish Times, who can't be bothered hiring fact checkers or maybe just dont include facts that dont support the opinions of their readership, ie you, because their readership will call them propegandaists if they do. I will ask you again - what has this got to do with Chavez and Venezuela? Im guessing not much except your own ideological agenda.

Actually you brought up the claim that Chavez had closed private radio ... I brought TVs up as evidence that, despite your claims, Chavez isn't closing down private media outlets, radio or TV, even the ones that tried to over thrown him

I never said I didnt bring up the radio. I said you brought up the TVS because a poster was wondering why I wanted to know how many people owned televsions. This is like a flipping inquisition, are you a Christian Brother?

BTW are you actually going to get round to backing up or retracting the propaganda you spouted in the previous posts?[/QUOTE]

That it's propeganda is only your opinion. Are you going to retract all your historical inaccuracies?

Zombrex

lazydaisy wrote:

Where do they get their medical supplies from?

Europe and Asia, mostly. Some from America if they can get through the ton of legal restrictions (the majority of life saving machines and medical supplies are illegal cause they can, possibly, be used by the military).

Over all Cuba makes most of its medical supplies internally. Cuba only spends $50 million a year on medical supplies, most of which goes to Europe, which is a tiny tiny amount of its annual import budget (about 1.5%).

lazydaisy wrote:

What do Cubans export besides people?

Do you actually know anything about Cuba? Cuba exports in 2004 were just over $2,000,000 (that 2 billion), mostly in sugar, nickel, tobacco, fish, medical products, citrus and coffee.

lazydaisy wrote:

Can the government accrue sufficient money from this given the population count over an extended period of time?

The Cuban government revenue in 2004 was $18 billion with expenditures of just over $19 billion. Thats better balancing of books than most western democracies.

For someone who doesn't think Cuba is relievent to Venezuela you are still asking a lot of questions about Cuba....

lazydaisy wrote:

Please tell us, who does control it?

The Irish Times is run by the Irish Times Trust.

lazydaisy wrote:

Why, so I can be as knowledgeable as you are?:rolleyes:

Well it might stop you posting nonsense about Venezuela ... just a thought

lazydaisy wrote:

I never said I didnt bring up the radio.

So are you standing by your original statement, that Chavez has closed all private radio stations?

lazydaisy wrote:

That it's propeganda is only your opinion.

It's propaganda cause it isn't true :rolleyes:

Sand

Lazydaisy and co, what you dont understand is this. Whilst Chavez might be a former anti-democratic military coup leader, and currently is an anti-democratic populist rabble rouser who packs state institutions with his yes men, forms paramilitary bands to deal with internal politcal opposition and basically ignores unimportant things like seperation of powers that are there to prevent things like totalarian government you have to understand. He doesnt like Bush. Hence Chavez is a hero worthy of worship-preferably from very, very far away.

Now if he was a close mate of Bush then those other trifling things youre talking about might be important.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Please tell us idiots who are full of crap what is the difference between hearsay and what is reported by journalists? So are you telling me that I should believe more about Northern Ireland from British, American, and Irish media than from what is said by people who actually have to live with the situation? And before you say yes, remember that Sinn Fein was banned from RTE for a number of years.

Not sure what SF being banned has anything to do with it.

The advantage of reporting vs hearsay is that reporters (generally) offer numerous sources of which to investigate to see if they are full of crap or not, where as your best friends cousin who heard something from someone else is generally not considered evidence.

As pointed out before, I generally look at numerous news sources, not to see who is lying but get a general idea of what the truth actually is. One viewpoint is rarely enough.

Yes that's right. You cant exchange your US currency in the banks according to this person who had to fly out of venezuela so he could exchange his curency before he flies back in again.

Again you have yet to back this up with any actual proof. If this was true there would easily be 30-40 news sites reporting it. I couldn't find it. Seeing as you know its true prehaps you can post a link to where it is mentioned.

What my friend saw/knows was pre-Chavez.

My friend has dinosaur DNA he stole using a time machine. Whats that? you want me to back that up? But surely my friend is correct?

I dont know what is happening with private property there now. I do know that anyone who owns anything is considered wealthy.

Check various news sources then. There have been numerous links through this thread for you to go and research.

So you read Spanish? You can get these sources directly?

Heh, have you even read this thread? Thormand earlier tried to point something out by sending me to a spanish site. Without giving me any help I found the actual statitistics and translated (which later showed he never bothered and believed what he was told, rather then research).

No I don't read Spanish but I actually try to research what people tell me. Do you?

My friends who are there are also respected academics,

Hey as I said my friend invented a time machine, so he is probably more intelligent then your friends.

Someone who sees things is a witness and as anyone who knows anything about history will tell you that the witness is the key to getting any kind of understanding.

Hence we have historians and reporters who record the facts and names and don't put down "Some guy I know said he knew someone who told him this". Look at CAIN for example ( http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ ) for what is considered a good source for NI as to what a good source is vs hearsay.

Incidentally what FACTS can you contribute? You tell me Im full of crap and dont back it up.

Read back through the thread. Don't back what up? You make the accusations it is for you to back them up or retract them. I even tried to find some of the accusations you were spouting and could find no reference on them. So clearly you know more so kindly post sources, with your extensive knowledge of the claims it should be easy for you to google and find other witnesses to the events?

You can't make a claim and then tell me to get negative proof. It doesn't work that way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

Hobbes

Sand wrote:

Hence Chavez is a hero worthy of worship-preferably from very, very far away.

I expected better from you Sand, although the last Chavez thread you were no better for backing up your facts like those guys.

Remember the whole point of the OP was to ask whats the deal with Chavez, not to defend him. If you can see past your hatred of all things liberal and actually contribute it might be worth reading.

Sand

Sand wrote:

Lazydaisy and co, what you dont understand is this. Whilst Chavez might be a former anti-democratic military coup leader, and currently is an anti-democratic populist rabble rouser who packs state institutions with his yes men, forms paramilitary bands to deal with internal politcal opposition and basically ignores unimportant things like seperation of powers that are there to prevent things like totalarian government you have to understand. He doesnt like Bush. Hence Chavez is a hero worthy of worship-preferably from very, very far away.

Now if he was a close mate of Bush then those other trifling things youre talking about might be important.

You've wrote two posts in that style this evening that have made me laugh Sand.
In the absence of the rep system,I just thought I'd comment here.

Hobbes wrote:

I expected better from you Sand, although the last Chavez thread you were no better for backing up your facts like those guys.

Remember the whole point of the OP was to ask whats the deal with Chavez, not to defend him. If you can see past your hatred of all things liberal and actually contribute it might be worth reading.

Fair enough comment from your perspective but borderline in its direction(poster not the post)


Could I remind everyone once again, that it's a much more pleasant read, if ye channell your anger at whatever post you disagree with, into extra creativity via a post rebuttal and not at the poster themselves.
That way we all can have fun
Thank you all for your co-operation.

lazydaisy

Hobbes-

I've gone back and read through the thread and from what I can see you demand everyone back up what they say with facts and threads but never do the same to support your own hot air.

Just to educate you a little, Katrina victims did not die because they couldnt turn on their airconditioners due to oil supplies dwindling. First of all, air conditioning is run on electricity, thats why they come attached with plugs. Now remind yourself what happens when you mix electricty and water. Thats why they couldnt turn them on. It was a flood!!! But that is not why people died anyway. Im not going to argue with you about Katrina because I cant compete with that level of misinformation. I'd spend all day clarifying all your falsehoods.

The southern states get cold in the winter and temperatures drop at night. Much of the heating is electricity and not oil run.

Yes I do read Spanish to a certain degree. Having a grandmother from Guyana who has [had] family in Venezuela I think I should dont you? Im not supplying you with scanned birth records and proof of address for you either.

Caracas has always been dangerous, having been there myself I know it has. If you want a link go and get one yourself. Remember that web info is still virtual.

You are in no credible position to comment on how intelligent my friends are, friends and family who actually live in the country you seem to know what's good for.

As far as I can see Hobbes, you just want an argument for the sake of an argument and verification of your own prejudices.

DadaKopf

This thread is getting ridiculous. I’m going to try and bring it back down to earth, if that’s alright with you, Ms. Lazydaisy. We can nit-pick all day to score little points off each other, but the issue, really, is what the outcome of the Venezuelan government’s policies is.

I’ve been looking for the most unbiased sources of information on how the Chavez administration is doing in terms of economic growth and poverty reduction. I found two briefings by Mark Weisbrot, actually a well-known, internationally respected, economic and social policy analyst at the Centre for Economic Policy Research, Washington DC.

To summarise, the Chavez government is doing well because GDP growth is up, they are running a budget surplus despite increased social spending, and poverty has decreased significantly.

Economic performance
GDP growth last year was just under 18%, and the economy has already expanded 9.3% in the first half of this year. This growth is not simply a result of high oil prices, it has to be due to other factors. Actually, oil prices rose much faster in the 1970s, but per capita income fell, too. In fact, between 1970 and 1998, the Venezuelan economy had been going through a 28-year economic decline where per capita income fell by 35%. Since the Chavez government took office, this long-term trend has been reversed; despite the 2002-2003 oil strike and 2003 coup attempt, per capita income growth has recovered rapidly and is expected to grow next year.

Poverty reduction
Detractors of this achievement reply that poverty has increased in Venezuela (based on government figures [Hi, Thomond]) and that the government is threatening the economy due to over-spending.

Weisbrot says that this is incorrect on both counts. Firstly, these data only measure cash-income and ignore non-cash incomes, much supplied by the government, including subsidised food which now reaches 46% of the population, health care services and education – subsidised food alone could push millions over the official poverty line. He says, “Any comparison of poverty today with past years that does not include these new benefits to the poor is essentially meaningless.”

Secondly, these cash-income figures and household poverty figures (remember, Thomond?) don’t make economic sense unless you include figures for 2005.

Percentage of households in poverty 1998 – 2004

1998: 49.00
1999: 42.80
2000: 41.60
2001: 39.10
2002: 41.50
2003: 54.00
2004: 53.10

Weisbrot says “it is like comparing fall temperatures to the summer, and concluding that there is no global warming”. Poverty rates are generally very sensitive to changes in economic growth and, given a growth rate in 2004 of 17.8%, and 9.3% growth in the first half of 2005, a sharp decrease in household poverty is to be expected. The cause of the sharp increase in 2002-2004 was the oil strike and the coup attempt – two things which Chavez is not responsible for. So this is rate of growth quite an achievement in the broader historical context of a three decade economic decline.

But beyond this, government initiatives like subsidised food that now reaches 46% of the population, health services, education, land redistribution, co-operatives, people’s banks, etc. have vastly increased the real incomes of poor Venezuelans. The official poverty rate has actually fallen from 54% in 2003 to 38.5% in the first half of 2005, and Weisbrot estimates that including government redistributions (non-cash incomes), real absolute poverty rates may now be below 30%.

Other stuff
Two more criticisms railed at Chavez is, firstly, he’s breaking the bank through government over-spending and that, through various reforms, he’s driving capital out of the country. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Firstly, it’s not true that the oil boom is the only reason for economic growth. The private sector is a larger share of the country’s economy than it was pre-Chavez. You’ve got to ask: who, really, was it that drove the economy into the ground? Chavez? Or Caldera, Perez and Carmona? The private sector seems to be booming. How can that be if 'everyone' is fleeing to Florida?

Secondly, the government is running a budget surplus despite government spending and income redistribution. This is partly due to the Chavez government enacting a piece of advice pushed by the IMF of all things: improving tax collection. Tax collection has increased steadily, even through the oil strike, and it is this, in addition to high growth, that has contributed to the budget surplus.

Thirdly, the government’s currency and capital flight controls seem to be working to stabilise Venezuela’s balance of payments – not as much capital as some would like to imagine has left the country. I guess the increased share of private sector income and high growth supports these policies. There are sound economic reasons to do this. And, with $30 billion reserves, Weisbrot believes Venezuela will be well able to maintain growth even if oil prices fall.

Challenges
Weisbrot doesn’t neglect to mention that a weak judicial system, weak rule of law, and high crime rates presents the government with some tough challenges. But the government hasn’t had a stable environment in which to tackle these issues due to a militant opposition whose power has now dissolved substantially.

Of course, there’s no guarantee the government will succeed, but sclerotic, inflexible institutions and the state bureaucracy are being reformed. But development experience shows that institutional reform comes with economic prosperity.

Ultimately, Weisbrot concludes that for the opposition to:

construct an economic argument that the majority of Venezuelans are worse off as a result of the present government … One would have to produce a counterfactual in which this terrible 28-year economic decline that preceded the Chavez government would have reversed itself in the absence of any change in policies or government, and then the economy would have grown so much faster than the rest of Latin America that, even without any social programs for the poor, enough would have trickled down to them so that they would be better off than they are now. This is not a very plausible story.

[Articles here and here.]

Elmo

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9920785/

Just thought you might like this article from MSNBC.

Strange.

But then I would think that it is helpful to have alot of Oil regardless of your left or right leanings.:rolleyes:

lazydaisy

Hi Dadakopf,

Yes. It was getting ridiculous.

Here's some interesting links. There are pictures too to take a look at too.

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403020624

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200509152101

Here is a site devoted to media which talks about the crisis in VEnezuela.

http://www.venezuelatoday.net/

Here is an article about voter fraud in Venezuela.

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/categories/rrModels/

Here is an article about Chavez banning Holloween because it is American imperialism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4391166.stm

And one about putting people in prison for protesting the banning.
http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200511021035

Here are reports from Amnesty International
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index

There are many many more if you are still unconvinced.

Elmo

Here is an article about Chavez banning Holloween because it is American imperialism.

Some mayor of a European country whated to do the same for the same reason. (As reported on The Panel)

Zombrex

Bloody hell, he didn't ban Halloween :rolleyes:

Read the article ...

BBC wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4391166.stm
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has urged families not to mark Halloween, calling it a US custom alien to the South American nation.

And the people arrested afterwards were arrested for anti-government protests, not for celebrating Halloween.

I am not saying that was right or justifing it, it wasn't as far as I can tell, but the amount of propaganda nonsense and spin going on here (Chavez outlaws Halloween!! Boo! Hiss!) makes one head spin.