Will New Orleans be abandoned/politics of Huricane Katrina [mega merged thread]

passive

By the way, all this constant talk of, and focus on, New Orleans by the media is apparently driving citizens in other areas batty.. they are feeling just as vulnerable (with the possible exception of the violence) but utterly forgotten.

I don't know about the rest of you but the violence and "law of the jungle" aspect of this in the wake of the disaster is the most shocking part of it for me. And obviously since New Orleans has the highest concentration of people it looks a lot worse than the surrounding areas and is a good centrepoint for the tragedy...

They'll presumably be helped in the same wave of effort that will sort out the New Orleans situation (hopefully a soon to come wave)

.....is it just me or is this guy at least partially trying to live out some sort of rambo daydream scenario!?

I got that impression too a little... But you can't really blame him. He is in that situation, it does have to be taken seriously and where's the harm in being a bit dramatic/living out a post-apocalyptic hero fantasy while you're struggling to survive in a real life disaster situation. Makes for good reading in any case...

steviec

That hurricane Pam you link to was seen as a 'worst case scenario', and it was only class 3, smaller than Katrina. There's the problem, everyone knew 'if' something as massive as Katrina hit New Orleans it would a disaster, but nobody was prepared for it to really happen.

New Orleans has been vulnerable for as long as it has existed. They didn't just tear its defenses down and send the materials to Iraq. It's been flooded before, and every time it happened they built the levies slightly bigger. It's defenses were always enough, unless it got hit by a storm bigger than anything that ever hit it before. Which is what happened. Of course if there were more defenses then it might have survived Katrina, but not a bigger hurricane. No matter what happens, people will always be at the mercy of natural disasters, and then try to blame it on their leaders when they happen. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, of course people have said in the past that 'if' this happened it'll be a disaster, there's thousands upon thousands of worst case scenario disasters that we're well aware of but we're completely unprepared for all over the world and we never will be ready for anything nature can throw at us.

What has been a very preventable disaster is the complete disarray of the rescue operation so far though, I only hope things improve quickly.

Lordy

soma wrote:

.....is it just me or is this guy at least partially trying to live out some sort of rambo daydream scenario!?

Apparently the head of the company is an ex military guy. Hes applying his training to the rest of the IT guys he has working for him.

Earthman wrote:

The only place where I havent seen much criticism is on fox news but that only gets to a small percentage of homes compared to the nightly news on the main networks

In the states, Fox News has the highest viewing figures. Personally I think its because they confuse "news" with "entertainment opinion pieces pretending to be news", but obviously a large percentage of people in the states disagree (or prefer Foxs format).

As for the senators talking about abandoning New Orleans, its Denis Hasbert, House Speaker - http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/01/hastert.katrina.ap/index.html
but he "clarified" his position later.

rsynnott

Earthman wrote:

I was waiting for someone to say that.
The whole thing looks apalling at this stage.
I note from the ITN lunchtime news that the UN are now saying this disaster is worse than the Aisan one-well we'll see when the body count is done in a few months.

This couldn't possibly be the case. There were fewer people left in NO than were killed in the Tsunami. It's possible that the economic damage may be higher, though; there's talk of abandoning the city permanently.

Pretor

rsynnott wrote:

It's possible that the economic damage may be higher, though; there's talk of abandoning the city permanently.

Well the city is in a bad place already, its surrounded by lakes and it lies below sea level. They were discussing this with a flood control expert on CNN and he said the levees built were designed to withstand a category 3 hurricane, and that was quoted from a senior officer at the Pentagon. Thing is they knew it was category 5 hurricane at sea with no evidence of decreasing in power so they should have had a good rescue policy in place, maybe not when the hurricane hit, but one at this stage.

As for the looting, thats what will happen when people are denied basic things like food and all law & order has broken down, Bush should have learned that lesson in Iraq...

This comes back to the America is invincible from any disaster concept, like what happen with terrorist attacks in NYC

A Dub in Glasgo

This is an almighty disgrace for the supposed most powerful country in the world. Imagine a country telling their people.... 'You are nothing, tough **** if you cannot get out of the city, we are safe'

Everything wrong with the US ethos is crystallised in the whole fiasco that is New Orleans

rsynnott

rsynnott wrote:

This couldn't possibly be the case. There were fewer people left in NO than were killed in the Tsunami. It's possible that the economic damage may be higher, though; there's talk of abandoning the city permanently.

Heard on CNN, that one Louisianna senator is guessing that 10,000 may be dead in that state alone.
The state the survivors were left in, is an appalling disgrace.
From the national media coverage over there Bush is in big big trouble as people wake up and smell the coffee.
The fact that the military have arrived today in vast numbers and with trucks supplying food and medicine mightn't be enough to stem this.
FFS, they did a better and almost quicker job of setting up a field hospital in their enemies country Iran after an Earthquake there 2 years ago.

caldwelk

(CNN) -- The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency said Thursday those New Orleans residents who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates.
Michael Brown also agreed with other public officials that the death toll in the city could reach into the thousands.

"Unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," Brown told CNN.

"I don't make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans," he said.

"And to find people still there is just heart-wrenching to me because, you know, the mayor did everything he could to get them out of there.

"So, we've got to figure out some way to convince people that whenever warnings go out it's for their own good," Brown said. "Now, I don't want to second guess why they did that. My job now is to get relief to them."

Brown was upbeat in his assessment of the relief effort so far, ticking off a list of accomplishments: more than 30,000 National Guard troops will be in the city within three days, the hospitals are being evacuated and search and rescue missions are continuing.

"Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans -- virtually a city that has been destroyed -- that things are going relatively well," Brown said.

Asked later on CNN how he could blame the victims, many of whom could not flee the storm because they had no transportation or were too frail to evacuate on their own, Brown said he was not blaming anyone.

_________________________________________________________________

This is an interview with Michael Brown, head of FEMA, on CNN on thursday. Personally, I think his attitude is nothing short of disgusting. Condidering this guy is in charge of the relief effort, it's no wonder NO is so f**ked. People in NO were ordered to evacuate, he said. Where could they go? No extra transportation was offered and no accomadation outside the city was offered either. People didn't leave the city because they couldn't afford to and they had nowhere to go to. NO is a largely poor black city and it seems they don't matter. Mr Brown simply tells everyone in NO to evacuate the city and he thinks that his job is done.
If everyone in Dublin was simply ordered to evacuate the city, how many people would not be able to afford to simply move their family and belongings to a hotel or a hostel outside the city within 2 or 3 days notice? I'd say quite a few.
Everything this guy said, along with his attitude seems to sum up the Federal Government's response. Sickening!!

Sponge Bob

steviec wrote:

There's the problem, everyone knew 'if' something as massive as Katrina hit New Orleans it would a disaster, but nobody was prepared for it to really happen.

Thats the real disaster.

1. There was no evacuation plan for those without their own transport
2. There was no prepositioning of relief supplies, say in the humungous fort bragg complex inland in Georgia which is beside alabama and florida and where they have choopers and big trucks in abundance .
3. The US has a better helicopter lift capacity than anyone, why was there no plan to use that capability
4. There was no plan to house .5m evacuees , say they had to build a prefab city 200 miles inland ....say in Georgia again

It begs the question of what does 'Homeland Security' really mean if you cannot plan for the Cat 4 hurricane every 10 years eventuality ....which is the rough frequency of big storm hitting a very built up area with wooden houses near the beach in the US

Cat 4 hurricanes are wartime conditions, why can they not wargame them in this day and age ? .

Hobbes

yea that is total sh!te. I mean the majority still there didn't have cars or couldn't leave. They didn't even set up evactuations beforehand they just told people "to get out".

Lordy

Lordy wrote:

In the states, Fox News has the highest viewing figures. Personally I think its because they confuse "news" with "entertainment opinion pieces pretending to be news", but obviously a large percentage of people in the states disagree (or prefer Foxs format).

Are you sure about that or do you have a source for that? I was under the impression that Fox is only available in cabled and satelite homes and that most Americans get their digest of TV news from either the main buletins of ABC,NBC or CBS still.
Certainly they were for Katrina source
The NBC coverage I saw last night pulled no punches as regards the disgrace, they were sweeping nothing under the carpet(and neither were the other 2 providers or CNN).
All in all that would be the coverage seen by the vast majority of Americans.

As regards what that FEMA director said,I'll hazzard a guess that the likes of him will have to eat words like that given the uproar there has been about FEMA.He's probably a republican and Bush supporter anyway so clearly away with the clouds :rolleyes:

rsynnott

It is interesting to compare the reports by the mainstream media with those from DirectNIC. Assuming that DirectNIC is telling the truth (which seems likely) the media is recieving considerable misinformation; in particular, the military presence arrived considerably later than reported.

magick

Havent heard a peep from Dick Cheney in all of this , u would think he would say something, make a speech or be scene at the disaster zones?

opps wrong thread, pls move to politics
thank u

duridian

Maybe Dick is too busy working away with his Dremel and making this super modded pc to amaze us all with on his comeback. Reckon you'd built a helluva machine on the VP's salary.

Snickers Man

murphaph wrote:

. Have we any precenents for this type of thing?

Sure. In Holland there was a massive disaster resulting in thousands of people being killed only 50 years ago. There will doubtless be loads of articles/TV items about this fairly soon to see how they coped and what measures they put in place.

It appears they built a defence-in-depth type system of three large dykes in the most vulnerable areas to provide extensive backup should the front-line dyke fail. holland is one of the most densely populated places on earth so they don't have a lot of space for flood-plains which can be left to flood in the case of the sea level rising suddenly.

It's really sad about New Orleans. I have visited it and found it a fabulous place. Exciting, vibrant and fascinating. Unlike many places in America it's got a reall feel of history about it. What with its French quarter with all the French street names and, if you look, the Spanish names underneath which reveal evidence of earlier colonial masters.

The food was great, the atmosphere was electric and the music was only brilliant.

Here's hoping they don't lose all of that. I don;t think they will though. It's far too vital a port, and its position at the mouth of the Mississippi means that it is the entry point into one of the most vital freight transportation routes in America.

TomF

I don't think it is possible to protect a place like The Former New Orleans with levees and dikes. Given the human love of home and place, people will probably return and rebuild anyway. (Think of San Francisco and Venice, not to mention Skibbereen!)

As for New Orleans being abandoned because it is populated by poor black people who vote the Democratic Party ticket, consider that the Mayor of the city is black and a Democrat. Also that there was no fuel stockpile to run the thousands of city/parish/state-owned schoolbuses in and near the city so that people too poor or feeble to get themselves out of the city could be transported. Also consider the rampant corruption in the Democratic Party's city, parish and state governments and the city's police department.

Top all of this with a State Governor whose main response to the disaster is to cry, and you have a small idea of why New Orleans was a disaster only waiting to happen.

murphaph

Snickers Man wrote:

Sure. In Holland there was a massive disaster resulting in thousands of people being killed only 50 years ago. There will doubtless be loads of articles/TV items about this fairly soon to see how they coped and what measures they put in place.

It wasn't quite thousands. It was 1,835, but it's as close a precedent as we'll find probably. Fair play for recalling this flood-it completely slipped my mind. However, it looks like New Orleans may well surpass this figure, sadly.

Snickers Man wrote:

It appears they built a defence-in-depth type system of three large dykes in the most vulnerable areas to provide extensive backup should the front-line dyke fail. holland is one of the most densely populated places on earth so they don't have a lot of space for flood-plains which can be left to flood in the case of the sea level rising suddenly.

But they created the polders by building dykes. These polders aren't settled in numbers-just used for agriculture and are designed to be sacrificed to the see in the event of a dyke breech. Even this absolutely massive project's (far far bigger tha just a few levees) ability to adequately protect the Netherlands is now being questioned in Holland. From Wiki;

To prevent such a tragedy from happening again, an ambitious flood defense system was conceived and deployed, called the Delta Works

..

However, there is an ongoing fundamental discussion about the basics of the Delta Works: the mainland is subsiding and due to global warming and climate changes, sea levels are rising. Eventually the dikes will have to be made higher and wider, causing even more local subsidence. This is a long term uphill battle against the sea, which many feel cannot be won. Some people argue that relocation of population centres and giving up land to the sea would be a longer lasting solution than to 'fight the sea'.

New Orleans doesn't even have the room for the defences the Dutch have employed over the centuries. The city is built right up to the concrete levees. At a bare minimum a lot of this property will have to go. It's probably worthless now anyway-who'd buy there.

is_that_so

This is interesting in adding a historical dimension to it all beyond the current budget cuts.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/weekinreview/04barry.html

And this one from THE Times-Picayune in 2002. Incredibly accurate
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/

is_that_so

rsynnott wrote:

It is interesting to compare the reports by the mainstream media with those from DirectNIC. Assuming that DirectNIC is telling the truth (which seems likely) the media is recieving considerable misinformation; in particular, the military presence arrived considerably later than reported.

With respect to DirectNIC reading that log there is also a lot of conjecture and speculation as well. That is not news and it is the kind of thing that adds to the misinformation that the news outlets will throw up as well.

maidhc

Fascinating article! Does this mean W. is going to spend billions on protecting the environment now?

Oviously the answer is no, since terrorism spending lets you do lots of exciting things like control your population with restricitive legislation (US PATRIOT Act), subsidise your industry on the quiet (Boeing), control immigration (US-VISIT), and invade countries to make your oil loving cronies happy (Iraq).

Spending billions on protecting the environment wont do any of that. It might even affect the car and oil industries... No one wants that.

As regards spending billions helping the poor; who needs a war on poverty when you can have a war on terrorism.

TomF

Well, it didn't take a genius to predict a disaster in New Orleans given an unprecendented storm.

Lets all get together now and write a prediction of the economic collapse that will hit Ireland when the housing bubble bursts at about the time most overseas investment industries move to India and China and after the price of all fuel goes stratospheric. When it happens, we can start an "it was predicted, and why didn't the government make it not happen?" thread on this board.

Hobbes

TomF wrote:

Well, it didn't take a genius to predict a disaster in New Orleans given an unprecendented storm.

Thats odd.. According to Bush no one could of predicted this. You can even watch a video of him saying it from just a day or so ago.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509020001

Davei141

TomF wrote:

Well, it didn't take a genius to predict a disaster in New Orleans given an unprecendented storm.

Lets all get together now and write a prediction of the economic collapse that will hit Ireland when the housing bubble bursts at about the time most overseas investment industries move to India and China and after the price of all fuel goes stratospheric. When it happens, we can start an "it was predicted, and why didn't the government make it not happen?" thread on this board.

I agree 100%, people think because this guy predicted a disaster that you can stop it. Lets not forget that people predicted that the world would descend into chaos because some digits were entered into a computer wrong at the millenium. People predicted that america would be wiped out by killer bees by the millenium, people predict that the apocalypse is 6 months away (Going to stop paying any mortages soon?). People predict we are going to get hit by a commet in 16 years, when it hits we can blame the war in Iraq.
Hell the amount of scare mongering that goes on, if you would act on everything you hear you wouldnt be able to live, how many people here are using mobile phones? theyre supposed to give you cancer, oh wait, they dont, well they do, but...if your under 10! Maybe the city flooding was inevitable, who is to say that if a bigger levvie was built that a bigger hurricane wouldnt come along?

Hobbes

Davei141 wrote:

Lets not forget that people predicted that the world would descend into chaos because some digits were entered into a computer wrong at the millenium.

And from that prediction a huge number of companie/corporations/etc updated all software/hardware to resolve this issue. If they hadn't it would of.

People predicted that america would be wiped out by killer bees by the millenium,

And again due to this prediction the US Government made a program to help kill off the bees.

People predict we are going to get hit by a commet in 16 years,

If it is the one I am thinking about, then NASA are already creating a program to create a craft to monitor and move its trajectory.

You see you can make predictions and by that prediction stop it. For example what kind of prediction could you make if you knew that levees could only survive a cat3 hurricane are hit with a cat5 and are in an area known for hurricanes? Or knowing this information a week before the hurricane hits? Appears Bush agreed with you and did nothing.

maidhc

TomF wrote:

Lets all get together now and write a prediction of the economic collapse that will hit Ireland when the housing bubble bursts at about the time most overseas investment industries move to India and China and after the price of all fuel goes stratospheric.

In fairness if you read the article in full, espcially in the magazine with lots of pictures and diagrams it was far more than a simplistic prediction. The National Geographic isn't know for its unfocused rants. Unlike some predictions it is less a prediction and more a statment of what was going to happen sooner or later. I dont think it was a solo run by the author but a well researched conclusion.

In comparison one cannot say for certain house prices will rise or fall, or that the economy will go to hell. It may happen, but you can't say it with any degree of unbiased certainty. i.e. I can predict that if I dont change the oil in my car the engine will die, but I cant predict if serviced correctly when the head gasket will fail.

Davei141

Hobbes wrote:

And from that prediction a huge number of companie/corporations/etc updated all software/hardware to resolve this issue. If they hadn't it would of.

Classic, thank god for that.

And again due to this prediction the US Government made a program to help kill off the bees.

Actually it was more of a half arsed attempt at calming irrational people.

If it is the one I am thinking about, then NASA are already creating a program to create a craft to monitor and move its trajectory.

And we will know if its successful in 16 years, you see the levees were the craft so to speak.

You see you can make predictions and by that prediction stop it. For example what kind of prediction could you make if you knew that levees could only survive a cat3 hurricane are hit with a cat5 and are in an area known for hurricanes? Or knowing this information a week before the hurricane hits? Appears Bush agreed with you and did nothing.

Ok lets build a cat5 levee, what happens if its the mother of all hurricanes, you know with this global warming lark, things will only get worse.

Or knowing this information a week before the hurricane hits?

The hurricane was a predicted cat5 and it turned out to be a cat4, people were asked to evacuate. the amount that didnt was huge, it takes time to get aid and a huge convoy to protect it from thousands of starving people and crack heads with guns. They also have to bring truckloads of aid that cant be dropped from the air because of the anarchy, dont simplify the issue.

Appears Bush agreed with you and did nothing.

Yeah im sure he couldnt care less, you know big bad george is the devil in disguise. You seem to woefully forget the position of the mayor in all this. They have a huge responsibility in providing transport for those who dont have some, i didnt see them getting the buses ready for an evacuation, yet its all bush's fault. It seems alot of people were taken by suprise the impact of the hurricane, blaming one person is just wrong.

Hobbes

Davei141 wrote:

And we will know if its successful in 16 years, you see the levees were the craft so to speak.

Not really, unless Bush plans to cut the funding of the craft each year and then ship the people working on it off to Iraq.

Ok lets build a cat5 levee, what happens if its the mother of all hurricanes, you know with this global warming lark, things will only get worse.

There is one thing building the cat5 levee. The point is that Bush cut funding to the program to repair them. He also cut funding to a flooding program (similar to Holland) which would of redirected the flooding. He also sent the engineers off to Iraq. Lastly a congressman complaining of these actions he let go.

the amount that didnt was huge, it takes time to get aid and a huge convoy to protect it from thousands of starving people and crack heads with guns. They also have to bring truckloads of aid that cant be dropped from the air because of the anarchy, dont simplify the issue.

I agree it takes time. So why then did Bush not authorise this aid until September the 2nd? (Note: The bill is freely visible on the net) Why not like Clinton did he not authorise the aid as soon as he knew the hurricane was going to be serious?

you know big bad george is the devil in disguise. You seem to woefully forget the position of the mayor in all this.

I haven't forgetton about the Mayor in all this. Btw, your right Bush seems not to care. I've watched him in his little photo-ops and its like hes not in this reality when it comes to a number of things.

They have a huge responsibility in providing transport for those who dont have some,

That is partly true but it is also FEMA who are supposed to manage that with the state body.

i didnt see them getting the buses ready for an evacuation,

Actually they did put on buses for evacuation. The poor and homeless were told to go to the convention center. The airlines (prior to shutting down) you couldn't buy a ticket for your soul.

There is some other crap coming to light. Turns out a nursing home for the elderly locked all the old people into the building and then the staff left town.

yet its all bush's fault.

He has clearly shown lack of leadership. I mean wtf did people vote him in for? To smile a lot?

Here is a question to you. What level of incompetance does Bush have to display before you will stop making excuses for him?

It seems alot of people were taken by suprise

Bush was that's for sure.

Here is an intresting timeline.
http://www.ledgeofliberty.com/2005/09/katrina_timelin.html

While the city was flooding Bush did a photo-op and took in some golf while on holiday. Condi took in a show and bought some shoes. Compare that to Clinton who quit his holiday prior to a hurricane hitting to ensure everyone was ok.

Now you can go on about "They needed time to know", hes the fuking president of the USA and the whole world knew New Orleans was in trouble the day of the hurricane. Yet it somehow takes him days to realise the gravity of the situation. Is anybody actually briefing him? Does he even look at the news?

Blondie86Star

I think the Bush admin should be ashamed. After giving a disgustingly small amount of aid to the victims of the tsunami they now are asking the EU for funds!

Maybe if he wasn't spending all the money on the war on terror he could afford to actually look after the country.

Nothing but bad things have happened since his presidency began.

If one good thing can happen cos of this hopefully it'll be bushes resignation

Hobbes

I've also read the wording of Bushes "Aid Package". It is a bit vague but from what I can tell 50% of the 10 billion funds can be redirected to other projects not related to the Hurricane disaster.

Victor

TomF wrote:

Well, it didn't take a genius to predict a disaster in New Orleans given an unprecendented storm.

There have been serious concerns about Mississippi floods for at least 15 year.