The Graeme Souness appreciation thread

Jivin Turkey

After all the allegations of him being the worst manager in the world, and numerous professions of hatred for the man from almost every man and his dog on this board, I’m going to try and get to the route of the problem.

Why does everyone hate him so much? Why do you think he is a bad manager?

This thread isn't for people who want to come in and just say "He's a wanker, and a sh1t manager, he wrecked such and such" and assorted baby-talk. It’s for rational discussion of the facts.

So here they are:

MANAGERIAL CAREER:
2004 - present Newcastle
2000-04 Blackburn
Nov 1997-99 Benfica
1997 July-Oct Torino (head coach)
1996-97 Southampton
1995-96 Galatasaray
1991-94 Liverpool
1986-91 Rangers (player-manager for first season)

So we will start at the start.

In six years with Rangers he won three league titles and four cups. Hardly the most competitive leagues nowadays, but in the 80s it was far more so. In fact, his first league win, was Rangers's first in ten years. Souness left Rangers at the beginning of their ten in a row run. He layed the foundations for that. He also got to the QFs of the European Cup one of the years. So in summary, I think you have to admit, he did a good job.

Right onto Liverpool. Obviously not a highlight. But to look at it and say Souness destroyed Liverpool is not looking at the complete facts. Hillborough was still a huge factor in a number of players minds. It caused Dalglish to resign in the first place. Hansen retired through injury in Souness's first season. Bruce Grobelaar was taking payments to through matches. His own ill-health. There was also many media influences against him as a result of his disdain for some of them, which put unneccessary pressure on his position. Liverpool had problems before Souness took over. Now Im not trying to claim his career as a manager of Liverpool was all roses, but he came in and tried to do a job (build a new team as most of the 80s heroes were getting on), unfortunately for him (and Liverpool fans) he didn't succeed. Not a great job.

A single season sabbatical from England in Turkey, yielded a second place finish and a Turkish cup. Souness is a cult figure in Turkey, for antics relating to more than his coaching agreed, but all in all one could not look at his single season in Turkey and say it was a total failure, particularly as they had not won the league for two years. Turkish fans wouldn’t remember a manager so highly, had he not done something right.

I remember clearly the season 96/97. Souness had Southampton playing great football. Only six teams scored more goals than them. They had a total goal difference of -6. Matt Le Tissier and Egil Ostenstad bagged loads of goals, and along with Eyal Berkovic looked cracking players. They put 6 past Man United! For the first time in years Southampton were safe going into the last day. He left after a disagreement with Rupert Lowe. I don’t know for sure but I’d wager that Southampton have the largest turnover of managers in English football in the last decade, with Sheffield Wednesday being the only possible rival that I can think of. Plenty of managers have left there on bad terms. Souness is not the exception. He did a good job for the season he was there.

A stint in Italy with Torino was ended after a couple of months following a disagreement with the owner. Torino had slipped into Serie B the season before if I remember correctly. Torino are another one of those clubs who favour keeping a manager on his toes. While not a highlight, hardly a massive blemish on any record.

Then off to Benfica for two seasons. Two second place finishes in the league to go with a second place finish in the groups of the CL (in those days if you finished second you were not certain to qualify for the knock-outs). At that time Porto were by far the dominant team in the league, and despite a decent season, only losing three in the league, Souness was sacked. A good enough job done here.

Off to Blackburn so. Mid-table in division one the previous year. 91 points and promotion in Souness's first year. 10th place in the PL and a league cup in his second year. 6th place in his third year. 10th place in his fourth and final full year. A poor start to the beginning of his fifth year, but hardly critical to the season after four games. So in summary, in four full years at Blackburn he took them from division one, to Europe. They would have competed in Europe twice in succession but some ruling allowed both Southampton and Man City (who finished 8th and 9th respectively the year Blackburn finished 6th) in instead. How anyone can say he did a bad job at Blackburn astounds me.

Now he's at Newcastle. Less than a year in the job. In two available transfer windows he has signed genuine talent. He has also offloaded supposed talent in Robert, Bellamy and Kluivert to name a few. Last April Newcastle were on course to win their first trophy (ever?). On and off field antics saw them lose six in succession, and bow out of the UEFA cup and FA cup semis. They had only lost one in seventeen up to then. An anti-climax to say the least.

Now at the beginning of this season, after four games, three of them against three of the toughest sides any team will face all year, and two of them with only one available 36 year old striker, they have one point and no goals. As bad as its been to begin with in the last few years. Three new players have arrived in the last week, all of proven quality, this goes with the two potentially world class Summer signings of Parker and Emre. Newcastle will have no distraction of Europe this year, they have players of far better quality and attitude. Think they are going down? Can I take your bets?

In summary, looking back at Souness's managerial career, the only jobs you can look at and say "that was very bad" are Liverpool, and then arguably Torino. So where does all this "Souness is a sh1t manager!" come from? Your heads? Why does everyone hate him? Because of his apparent hatred for Irish players? *yawn* There are two current Irish internationals in his squad. He also favoured Stephen Reid and Damien Duff at Blackburn.

Fact of the matter is Souness has a decent managerial track record. He has experience of European football, even European domestic football. He has a huge number of contacts throughout the game, at home and abroad.

He is a disciplinarian, people may not like his style, but he takes no crap. It might not be the best form of man-management, but if it means players like Bellamy get replaced with proven winners like Owen I’m sure Newcastle fans won't complain.

I'm not saying he is the best in the world. I'm not saying he is the best in England. I don't want to have his babies . I just hate people talking garbage. Before we have anymore "Souness is sh1t" muck, can we have some back-up first?

Now where did I put that worm-can opener?

whiskeyman

*tumbleweed goes by*

Spider_Baby!

Souness is garbage. But, he has made some brilliant signings - now all he has to do is bring out the best in them!!

Seaneh

Well said JT.

Lemlin

Off to Blackburn so. Mid-table in division one the previous year. 91 points and promotion in Souness's first year. 10th place in the PL and a league cup in his second year. 6th place in his third year. 10th place in his fourth and final full year. A poor start to the beginning of his fifth year, but hardly critical to the season after four games. So in summary, in four full years at Blackburn he took them from division one, to Europe. They would have competed in Europe twice in succession but some ruling allowed both Southampton and Man City (who finished 8th and 9th respectively the year Blackburn finished 6th) in instead. How anyone can say he did a bad job at Blackburn astounds me.

For a start, Souness inherited a Blackburn team that should have in no way been relegated, yet alone been languishing in Division One. The team included David Dunn, Marcus Bent, Henning Berg, Damien Duff, Brad Friedel and Garry Flitcroft, all proven Premiership players. As well as players like Jason McAteer and Lee Carsley who provided more than able support for the first team. The board were also never short of giving him money to splash out on new signings.

I'm not about to go into every mistake he made over the next three years after winning promotion, but no Rovers fan has been left happy after he fell out with players like Dunn, Bent, Todd, Cole and Yorke. The players he brought into replace them - Lorenzo Amoruso, Corrado Grabbi, Egil Ostenstad etc. - have been terrible additions to the team and, whereas he often sold youth, he brought in veterans. That's why Blackburn had a far better team two years ago than now. So, basically, Souness tore apart most of the team he inherited, thanks to his squabbles. A team that were a good side.

Finally, Blackburn were left in a shambles by him last year. Our only first choice striker was Paul Dickov, the defence was leaking goals rapidly (mainly because he wouldn't play Todd), his new signings were useless (see Amoruso again) and the midfield had no creativity.

That's why I don't like Souness.

ciaran76

whiskeyman wrote:

*tumbleweed goes by*

There goes another one !!!!

jubbly

The Graeme Souness appreciation thread

LOL

KdjaCL

His teams play decent attacking football, his only flaw is he doesnt get on with chairmen.

MANAGERIAL CAREER:
2004 - present Newcastle, inherited a team of arseholes, has now gotten rid of all but one (Dyer) , should play his way now.
2000-04 Blackburn got them into Europe and PL
Nov 1997-99 Benfica need a job
1997 July-Oct Torino (head coach) ehh dunno
1996-97 Southampton Beat man utd 6-3 saved them from relegation, Lowe is a gob****e anyway.
1995-96 Galatasaray Won a cup , planted their flag in fenerbaches half, sacked for telling chairman to **** off.
1991-94 Liverpool Wrong man wrong team
1986-91 Rangers (player-manager for first season) Left for^ a step up


Not a bad career so far just doesnt take crap and was right to take Newcastle job , tbh i reckon he will win somfin or get them into Europe this season. Only thing i dont like about him is hes a Man utd fan and cant stop showering them with his love, even after playing them


kdjac

Necronomicon

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I'm not saying he is the best in the world. I'm not saying he is the best in England. I don't want to have his babies . I just hate people talking garbage. Before we have anymore "Souness is sh1t" muck, can we have some back-up first?

I agree with pretty much everything there, I think there's loads of anti-Souness comments going around without much reason behind them. I've always rated him, his movement in the transfer market this summer has been outstanding.

Necronomicon

jubbly wrote:

LOL

See, the great arguements are here already!

Lemlin

I agree with pretty much everything there, I think there's loads of anti-Souness comments going around without much reason behind them. I've always rated him, his movement in the transfer market this summer has been outstanding.

And I think plenty of people are saying his transfers this Summer have been outstanding without much reasoning behind it!

Give the players he's bought six months in the Premiership to see if they live up to expectations before you start praising them lads.

And I think I gave a more than adequate commentary on why Blackburn supporters don't like him.

Jivin Turkey

Lemlin wrote:

For a start, Souness inherited a Blackburn team that should have in no way been relegated, yet alone been languishing in Division One. The team included David Dunn, Marcus Bent, Henning Berg, Damien Duff, Brad Friedel and Garry Flitcroft, all proven Premiership players. As well as players like Jason McAteer and Lee Carsley who provided more than able support for the first team. The board were also never short of giving him money to splash out on new signings.

And is this Souness's fault?

He took these players to 6th in the league, they may have been proven Premiership players (although Id argue with you on Dunn and Bent seeing as they were mere teenagers when Souness took over) but they were not European standard players which is where Souness took them.

Lemlin wrote:

I'm not about to go into every mistake he made over the next three years after winning promotion, but no Rovers fan has been left happy after he fell out with players like Dunn, Bent, Todd, Cole and Yorke.

Fell out with players like:

Dunn - who hasn't played a football game since 2004, and less than 30 in two years at Birmingham after a £5.5M sale.
Yorke - who is now planning world domination while playing in Australia.
Todd - wouldn't be the first time he had a run in with a manager. In fact I think he was kicked out of Bolton as well as Charlton for fighting with team-mates.

Getting rid of Yorke and Dunn have been shrewd pieces of business, proved by hindsight. Todd has discipline problems, hes in the dock again over his latest headbutt. To be honest, its not the type of captain you need.

Cole and Bent were decent players. Bent was sold at a profit.

Lemlin wrote:

The players he brought into replace them - Lorenzo Amoruso, Corrado Grabbi, Egil Ostenstad etc. - have been terrible additions to the team and, whereas he often sold youth, he brought in veterans. That's why Blackburn had a far better team two years ago than now. So, basically, Souness tore apart most of the team he inherited, thanks to his squabbles. A team that were a good side.

Eh........Im beginning to wonder do you even follow Blackburn.

Players and Grabbi and Ostenstad were signed well before Yorke and Cole, so they were hardly to replace them.

Souness himself bought every single one of those players that you said left Rovers fans disappointed when he fell out with them. They are the veterans that you have cursed that came in for the youngsters. And what youngsters did Blackburn make a mistake in letting go? I cant think of one that has gone onto bigger and better things.

If the team was better off two years ago than now, surely it would have been better if Souness had stayed. He was after all the coach two years ago. He built that team!

Lemlin wrote:

Finally, Blackburn were left in a shambles by him last year. Our only first choice striker was Paul Dickov, the defence was leaking goals rapidly (mainly because he wouldn't play Todd), his new signings were useless (see Amoruso again) and the midfield had no creativity.

A shambles? They had only played a couple of games. They also had Jansen and Stead as strikers. Although Jansen wasnt fit much.

Lemlin wrote:

And I think plenty of people are saying his transfers this Summer have been outstanding without much reasoning behind it!

Give the players he's bought six months in the Premiership to see if they live up to expectations before you start praising them lads.

Their reasoning is that they are all proven premiership quality players. Solano, Parker, Owen have demonstrated for years that they are some of the best in the business at what they do in the league.

Emre is potentially world class. Have you ever seen him play?

Luque is a proven La Liga player.

Lemlin wrote:

That's why I don't like Souness.

Because he took your club from division one to Europe? Right :rolleyes:

el rabitos

what he did to liverpool was nothing to do with a team in transition, he sold young players/old players, threw chairs at players. the team lost to bristol in the fa cup!

but i've been interested in him getting the newcastle job, especially now that he's got all the players he asked for...he'll be judged on how they do this season....and i for one think newcastle will have another manager this time next year

jonny68

Obviously being a Celtic fan im not going to like someone like Souness having played for the forces of darkness.

Here you have a classic case of a man who was a really good player in his heyday,but has failed in management,the same could be ultimately said about Bryan Robson although i don't dislike Robbo at all.

It'll be interesting to see what Souness will do with the geordies this season,they should by all accounts finish in the top 5,maybe get a decent cup run going,apart from that for me he will have failed when you look at the players he has in his team.

RedorDead

Necromomicon wrote:

I agree with pretty much everything there, I think there's loads of anti-Souness comments going around without much reason behind them. I've always rated him, his movement in the transfer market this summer has been outstanding.

:eek:

Crikey. I think Souness' moves in the transfer market reek of desperation. Im not talking specifically about this summer but since he took over at Newcastle.

He signed Boumsong for £8 million in January. I think the guy is honestly worth around £2.5 million. I mean Rangers signed him on a free. He has proven himself to be below Premiership standard since signing.

He signed Luque for £9.5 million - again way over the odds for a player of his type. I dont think you'd see many of the big clubs bidding more than 5.5 or 6 mill for this guy.

And finally Owen. £17 million for Owen is crazy no matter how desperate he was to sign him. £12 million IMHO represented a fair price for Owen who left Liverpool for £8M and Antonio Nunez.

Ever notice when he is tracking a player he comes out and always says it in the Media? Why do no other managers use this approach?

Lemlin

I'm not about to start a big argument on the matter. Basically, if Souness has done so much for Blackburn why don't the supporters love him? And if he's done such a great job at all those other clubs why don't their supporters love him too?

I've given my reasons. Take them as you like. As I said on another post, I'll be the one laughing in six months when the Newcastle supporters on this board have a Graeme Souness hate thread!

Regarding his potentially world class signings, like I've said, I'd wait for them to prove themselves. If I had two cents for every time I'd heard someone was gonna be world class in the Premiership well......

Culchie

I think Souness is in the wrong job to be honest.

He was a great player, in a great team, and I also think he can visualise in his head the type of team he wants to build.

I also think he then has the ability to pick the right player , I think he has made some brilliant signings, with the odd exception, but Fergie and Wenger made a few boo boos as well.

However, he cannot manage a football team!
Whether it's his man management skills (lack of) or sheer moodiness, it all goes down the pan.

He should have a director of football role, or a scout/consultancy role, and work at boardroom level on strategically building a team and a club, and leave the managing of the team to someboby else better suited.

Keano_sli

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Now he's at Newcastle. Less than a year in the job. In two available transfer windows he has signed genuine talent. He has also offloaded supposed talent in Robert, Bellamy and Kluivert to name a few. Last April Newcastle were on course to win their first trophy (ever?). On and off field antics saw them lose six in succession, and bow out of the UEFA cup and FA cup semis. They had only lost one in seventeen up to then. An anti-climax to say the least.

Gotta make a point for my mates in Newcastle, They won hte league 4 times back in the day, Won the FA Cup 6 times, 3 times in the 50's '51, '52 and '55. and the Fairs Cup (UEFA CUP now) in '69 so that comment would have you hung, drawn and quartered in Newcastle.

However that aside I think you made some very good points about Souness's achievements as a manager and he doesn't look quite such a bad proposition for the Toon. I think most people, myself included, who don't like Souness do so on an instictive dislike of the man himself. He just causes a reaction in people and they can't see past that rationally. The signings of Parker, Emre and Owen have certainly bought him time with Newcaslte. I have been mailing several friends in Newcastle over the last few days and they were all totally anti-Souness for the last 12 months and not impressed with his signings but now are failrly content and willing to give him a change as the team looks good on paper.
Question is: Can Souness transfer that potential on to the pitch?
They must at least automatically qualify for the UEFA cup or win the FA Cup this season to make him safe.
Although I am a United fan I have always had a keen interest in Newcaslte and their fate due to the amount of people I know in the area and the great times I have had there so I will be watching keenly to see how he gets on.


Good Thread JT, something for people to think about rather than the Usual my team is better, No my team is better stuff that would interest people who can make no better contribution than "*tumbleweed*" :rolleyes:

WhiteWashMan

i think there is just something about Souness that people just dont like.
personally i cant stand him. theres no valid reason, i just dont like him.

damo

i read in the paper the other day that souness has been in charge of newcastle now for 38 games and has amassed a grand total of 36 points.....thats relegation fodder, not that i think for a second that newcastle will be relegated in the near future, but with the players he has had at his disposal and the money hes had to spend he should have done alot better, add into the equation that he was on the verge of being sacked by blackburn when he was given the newcastle job, its easy to see why newcastle fans arent too keen on him

damo

38 premiership games that is

~Rebel~

Yeah have to agree with WWM there, personally i also dislike him for the liverpool debacle, but aside from that he just seems like an asshole! id imagine when a player hears souness is coming in to take over the reacton is "fúck, there goes the fun...". I always hear explanations and rationalisations for why he's currently fighting with whoever, but at the end of the day its no coincidence that its always him!
He has sorted out the newcastle team, but i would have liked to have seen how he would have handled it if he hadn't had bundles of money to throw around and couldn't just offload everyone he doesn't get on with. Could he have been professional and gotten the job done? Barton proved up till very recently what an absolute scummer he was for man city, but Pearce now has him in the form of his life. Could Souness have done this? Or would he have just off loaded him. I think the latter. A manager that goes in for a tackle on his own player like he did to Yorke has some serious issues to sort out before he should be allowed near competitive situations. He's obviously a reasonably good manager (in the right circumstances) but he's also a world class egotistical totalitarian asshole, which the biggest reason i dont like him.

PHB

Souness is unprofesssional.

You know whats funny:

Gary and Phil Neville hate Alex Ferguson.
Alex Ferguson hates Gary and Phil Neville.
They despise each other, and its quite well known.

You ever heard of a bust up?
You ever heard of Fergie having a nutter at them?
No

Cause they are professionals! They can keep their personal and private lives seperate. Nevilles won't be over for Christmas dinner, but they'll be on the training pitch.
Thats why Fergie is professional football manager, and Souness is an amateur

evilhomer

Culchie wrote:

However, he cannot manage a football team!
Whether it's his man management skills (lack of) or sheer moodiness, it all goes down the pan.

He should have a director of football role, or a scout/consultancy role, and work at boardroom level on strategically building a team and a club, and leave the managing of the team to someboby else better suited.

I have to agree Culchie, he has made some very good signings, but I don't believe he is a good enough tactician and man manager.

Director of football or scout would be good for him.

I am a Newcastle fan and I have to say that every interview he gave after a game that newcastle done poorly in he had excuses. A manager shouldn't have to make up excuses for how poor the performance was, he should be able to motivate his team or change things tactically and get them to win the game.

But since he has made some very good signings, now he can have no excuses. We will know after 20 games (probably less) if Souness has what it takes to put a team back in the top 4.

pickarooney

He seems to have it in for monosyllabic-named players
I don't think he's been long enough in any one job with a fixed set of players to prove himself either way. He seems to come into teams in disarray, have fights with half them, give anyone who fights back the boot and the others a chance, buy in a load of overpriced players in the hope that one or two will fit the bill. I reckon he'd try anybody's patience very quickly - players, chairmen and fans alike. His aggro style of management, like his playing style has some advantages, but I think a more level-headed approach to the game is needed to be a really successful manager.
An awful lot of top coaches were never any good as players, but are students of the game and of the psychology of management, both financial and human.
Souness knows a good player when he sees him, but too often is unable to make him fit his team. Some players react well to being bossed about and shouted at, others need to be cajoled or encouraged. I'm not sure Souness is well able to tell the difference.
I'm not a fan of switching managers at the drop of a hat, except where it's abundantly clear they're not up to the job (Barnes at Celtic or Santini at Spurs for example), and I reckon expectations are low enough at Newcastle that a finish outside the top five won't see his head be called for at the end of the season, provided there's some evidence of progress. The current team would appear to be heading in the right direction in terms of personnel, and the results should start coming in once they get time to click.

Jivin Turkey

RedorDead wrote:

:eek:

Crikey. I think Souness' moves in the transfer market reek of desperation. Im not talking specifically about this summer but since he took over at Newcastle.

He signed Boumsong for £8 million in January. I think the guy is honestly worth around £2.5 million. I mean Rangers signed him on a free. He has proven himself to be below Premiership standard since signing.

He signed Luque for £9.5 million - again way over the odds for a player of his type. I dont think you'd see many of the big clubs bidding more than 5.5 or 6 mill for this guy.

And finally Owen. £17 million for Owen is crazy no matter how desperate he was to sign him. £12 million IMHO represented a fair price for Owen who left Liverpool for £8M and Antonio Nunez.

Smack of desperation? To be honest Id say any manager of a club of Newcastles size would be desperate to bring players of the quality of Owen, Emre, Luque and Parker to their club.

As regards Boumsong, do you know how Rangers signed him for free? Do you want to hazard a guess? Do you know why they could charge a fee for him? Again answers on a postcard. You cannot compare the fees paid, its not comparing like with like. How many times have you watched him play? Or are you basing your assessment of him on a single game last weekend. He has been a key defensive member for Newcastle over the last nine months, as well as France, and Auxerre before that (who were playing in the CL).

£9.5M for Luque, what makes you think that is over the odds. Hes a proven European standard player, only 27. You dont get players (particularly attacking ones) of his calibre for cheaper.

Owen was a bargain at £17M. I can guarantee that if he was some 25yo Spanish or Italian striker with the same record in La Liga or Serie A, people would be creaming themselves if their club signed him. Because hes English, and "none of their players are good its all just hype", apparently its a bad move. Again, you wont get a player of Owens calibre, experience, and age for anything less than £17M.

Lemlin wrote:

I'm not about to start a big argument on the matter. Basically, if Souness has done so much for Blackburn why don't the supporters love him? And if he's done such a great job at all those other clubs why don't their supporters love him too?

I've given my reasons. Take them as you like. As I said on another post, I'll be the one laughing in six months when the Newcastle supporters on this board have a Graeme Souness hate thread!

Regarding his potentially world class signings, like I've said, I'd wait for them to prove themselves. If I had two cents for every time I'd heard someone was gonna be world class in the Premiership well......

Whether Blackburn fans like him or not is immaterial. He did a good job. Took them from Division one, and over-achieved in the Premiership. Thats the facts.

His potentially world class signings have proven themselves, year after year. Owen and Parker have proven track records in the Premiership, which is remarkable of two 25 year olds. Luque has a proven track record in Spain and Europe. Emre has a proven international track record, could have had a better time in Italy however. None of these players have anything to prove.

damo wrote:

i read in the paper the other day that souness has been in charge of newcastle now for 38 games and has amassed a grand total of 36 points.....thats relegation fodder, not that i think for a second that newcastle will be relegated in the near future, but with the players he has had at his disposal and the money hes had to spend he should have done alot better, add into the equation that he was on the verge of being sacked by blackburn when he was given the newcastle job, its easy to see why newcastle fans arent too keen on him

Maybe you should read a different paper, because your facts are not correct.

They also negate to tell of the two cup runs that he managed, yielding 10 wins, one draw and one loss in the UEFA cup, and four wins and a loss in the FA Cup, and two semi final appearances.

Jivin Turkey

pickarooney wrote:

I don't think he's been long enough in any one job with a fixed set of players to prove himself either way. He seems to come into teams in disarray, have fights with half them, give anyone who fights back the boot and the others a chance, buy in a load of overpriced players in the hope that one or two will fit the bill. I reckon he'd try anybody's patience very quickly - players, chairmen and fans alike. His aggro style of management, like his playing style has some advantages, but I think a more level-headed approach to the game is needed to be a really successful manager.
An awful lot of top coaches were never any good as players, but are students of the game and of the psychology of management, both financial and human.
Souness knows a good player when he sees him, but too often is unable to make him fit his team. Some players react well to being bossed about and shouted at, others need to be cajoled or encouraged. I'm not sure Souness is well able to tell the difference.
I'm not a fan of switching managers at the drop of a hat, except where it's abundantly clear they're not up to the job (Barnes at Celtic or Santini at Spurs for example), and I reckon expectations are low enough at Newcastle that a finish outside the top five won't see his head be called for at the end of the season, provided there's some evidence of progress. The current team would appear to be heading in the right direction in terms of personnel, and the results should start coming in once they get time to click.

I would have to agree with a lot of what was said here. Good analysis.

Lemlin

Owen was a bargain at £17M.

Not when Madrid paid 8 million the year before for him he wasn't. That's more than a 100% profit for a player they weren't even playing properly.

Whether Blackburn fans like him or not is immaterial. He did a good job. Took them from Division one, and over-achieved in the Premiership. Thats the facts.

And left the team before he got the sack, that Newcastle took him was a surprise to everyone, including himself. He left Blackburn in disarray, and the team would of been relegated had it not been for Mark Hughes.

His potentially world class signings have proven themselves, year after year. Owen and Parker have proven track records in the Premiership, which is remarkable of two 25 year olds. Luque has a proven track record in Spain and Europe. Emre has a proven international track record, could have had a better time in Italy however. None of these players have anything to prove.

Right, I've said this before and, I'll say it again, if I had two cents for every player that came to the Premiership who it was claimed would be world class. Was Djibril Cisse not the top young striker in France two years ago? Was Sergei Rebrov not a revelation in the Ukraine and Europe? Or maybe if I choose one a bit closer to St James Park it might sink in: was Hugo Viana not supposed to be the best young player coming out of Portugal? All 8.5 million worth of him, where is he now?

Players may have a proven track record in the Premiership for a different club or in timbuktu for foreign clubs. It doesn't matter until they've proven themselves for Newcastle.

They also negate to tell of the two cup runs that he managed, yielding 10 wins, one draw and one loss in the UEFA cup, and four wins and a loss in the FA Cup, and two semi final appearances.

Jesus, he must be class, imagine they managed only one loss in the FA Cup! Oh sorry, I forget myself, that's a knock out competition isn't it!?

pickarooney

Lemlin wrote:

Not when Madrid paid 8 million the year before for him he wasn't. That's more than a 100% profit for a player they weren't even playing properly.

I can't understand that logic of looking at players' worth. Look at Peter Crouch: one year he's worth 5 million, the next 500 grand, then 7 million again (rough figures). It's not because he suddenly became ten times worse and then ten times better, it's just how much a club needs a player at a specific time. When a player reaches the end of his contract (like Boumsong at Auxerre) he's not suddenly worth zero euros. Owen, near the end of his contract, was cheap, but for the amount Real used him, was not much of an investment. I don't know what wages he was on, but they didn't make a mint out of him either.
So he cost Newcastle 17 million, because that's how much they reckoned they needed him. If his goals make the difference between relegation and survival (in all likelihood not a conceivable scenario), between the UEFA and mid-table nothingness, between fifth and fourth place and a Champions League spot or finally wins them the FA Cup (they're as unlikely to win the league as go down), and if he does it consistently over the four years of his contract, then he'll be worth every penny of his transfer. And that's not counting shirt sales.
To work out whether or not he was a bargain, you'd have to compare him to another player who
a) was available
b) was willing to play for Newcastle
c) had a proven record in the Premiership and at International level (debatable if a good NT record is of consequence for a club side, granted)
d) would be on the same wages as he
e) wouldn't be a stroppy, narcissitic, lazy, violent waste of space.

Devious

Lemlin wrote:

Not when Madrid paid 8 million the year before for him he wasn't. That's more than a 100% profit for a player they weren't even playing properly.

I think its pretty much universally agreed that Madrid got him at bargain-basement price. The fact of the matter is at 25, with a proven record for England and Liverpool, 17m is a good deal.

KdjaCL

PHB wrote:

Thats why Fergie is professional football manager, and Souness is an amateur

PHB some of your Total Man Utd Crap is fookin hilarious. Fergie split Beckhams head open with a boot and threw a pot of tea over lee sharpe, they the incidents that came out. Seriously is that professional?


kdjac

redspider

pickarooney wrote:

I can't understand that logic of looking at players' worth. Look at Peter Crouch: one year he's worth 5 million, the next 500 grand, then 7 million again (rough figures). It's not because he suddenly became ten times worse and then ten times better, it's just how much a club needs a player at a specific time. When a player reaches the end of his contract (like Boumsong at Auxerre) he's not suddenly worth zero euros. Owen, near the end of his contract, was cheap, but for the amount Real used him, was not much of an investment. I don't know what wages he was on, but they didn't make a mint out of him either.

Looking at purchase price alone is only a part of the valuation of a footballer. You also have to include how much salary a player will get, what is his age and his likely resale value. For example, Zenden came on a free to Liverpool, but he is not free, as he is getting a sizeable salary, probably something like 50k a week which is 2m a year. If he signed a 4-year deal he will cost Liverpool 8m, and say after 3 years, he is worth 2m, he will cost Liverpool overall 4m (6m - 2m).

Too often people use the transfer price as a value/cost price for a footballer. It is misleading on its own. Its part of the equation, an important part, but not the only part.

I hope everyone on boards.ie picks this point up and understands it.

In terms of Owen, Real did quite well out of it. He played ok for them when he was on. He cost 8m and was sold for 17m. His salary for the year was approx 100k a week, which is 5m. I dont have any data on whether his being there helped marketing revenue and by how much. But overall, this was good business by Real, who gained 4m net (17 - 8 - 5) and offoaded Nunez (saving probably another 500k-1m).

redspider

PHB

PHB some of your Total Man Utd Crap is fookin hilarious. Fergie split Beckhams head open with a boot and threw a pot of tea over lee sharpe, they the incidents that came out. Seriously is that professional?

Beckham was hit accross the head cause of football, as was Lee Sharpe.
If Souness has a bust up with a player like say cause of what Bellamy did, thats fine, by all means get rid of the waster.
But Sounees has busts up cause of personal disagreements with players.

jubbly

Personally I there should be an Alan Shearer appreciation thread instead of this Souness thread. He has contributed far more to football, week in week out. Pity we never had him playing for Ireland. A legend, absolute legend IMO. I think he should be given some award from Ireland for his contribution to football and as a role model for players

WhiteWashMan

PHB wrote:

Beckham was hit accross the head cause of football, as was Lee Sharpe.
If Souness has a bust up with a player like say cause of what Bellamy did, thats fine, by all means get rid of the waster.
But Sounees has busts up cause of personal disagreements with players.

it doesnt really matter what the issue is, whether its football, the colour of hs hair, or because his breath smells, the fact of the matter is that Furgeson was unprofessional.

dont try and make it anything else.

Lemlin

Looking at purchase price alone is only a part of the valuation of a footballer. You also have to include how much salary a player will get, what is his age and his likely resale value. For example, Zenden came on a free to Liverpool, but he is not free, as he is getting a sizeable salary, probably something like 50k a week which is 2m a year. If he signed a 4-year deal he will cost Liverpool 8m, and say after 3 years, he is worth 2m, he will cost Liverpool overall 4m (6m - 2m).

Too often people use the transfer price as a value/cost price for a footballer. It is misleading on its own. Its part of the equation, an important part, but not the only part.

I hope everyone on boards.ie picks this point up and understands it.

In terms of Owen, Real did quite well out of it. He played ok for them when he was on. He cost 8m and was sold for 17m. His salary for the year was approx 100k a week, which is 5m. I dont have any data on whether his being there helped marketing revenue and by how much. But overall, this was good business by Real, who gained 4m net (17 - 8 - 5) and offoaded Nunez (saving probably another 500k-1m).

And Newcastle are allegedly paying Owen 120,000 a week. That's 6.24 million a year. Quite an outlay if you ask me.

KdjaCL

PHB wrote:

But Sounees has busts up cause of personal disagreements with players.

David Dunn wouldnt play in a position Souness wanted him too. Who is unprofessional there?
Yorke is a beer monster who missed training 3 times in 2 weeks, again whos the professional?
Bellamy wouldnt play in a certain position, again professional?

These guys are on a lot of money to play, they should just do what the manager says and get on with it. The players were unprofessional imo in all the above cases.



kdjac

Jivin Turkey

Lemlin wrote:

Not when Madrid paid 8 million the year before for him he wasn't. That's more than a 100% profit for a player they weren't even playing properly.

If you are continuing to claim this is relevant there is no point in me arguing with you.

Owen had a year left on his contract when he left Liverpool, and Liverpool wanted to sell him, and his price reflected that!

He had 3-4 on his Madrid contract, they were happy to hold on to him, and hence his price reflects that!

Lemlin wrote:

And left the team before he got the sack, that Newcastle took him was a surprise to everyone, including himself. He left Blackburn in disarray, and the team would of been relegated had it not been for Mark Hughes.

You are a good man for the crystal ball. You are claiming Blackburn would have definitely been relegated based on the first four games of the season when he was in charge? Ridiculous.

Lemlin wrote:

Right, I've said this before and, I'll say it again, if I had two cents for every player that came to the Premiership who it was claimed would be world class. Was Djibril Cisse not the top young striker in France two years ago? Was Sergei Rebrov not a revelation in the Ukraine and Europe? Or maybe if I choose one a bit closer to St James Park it might sink in: was Hugo Viana not supposed to be the best young player coming out of Portugal? All 8.5 million worth of him, where is he now?

Players may have a proven track record in the Premiership for a different club or in timbuktu for foreign clubs. It doesn't matter until they've proven themselves for Newcastle.

Going by your logic so every new player is "unproven", so how can you criticise him for signing "unproven" players. If Newcastle signed, Henry, Ronaldinho, Terry, and Makelele they all would have been "unproven" according to you. No doubt you would criticised Souness for signing "unproven" players too. :rolleyes:

With the exception of Rebrov, all of the players you mentioned were in their early 20s when signed and unproven bar a single good season or two.

With the exception of Emre, all of Souness's players have been established as first choice senior team players for at least four or five years, and good players at that.

Lemlin wrote:

Jesus, he must be class, imagine they managed only one loss in the FA Cup! Oh sorry, I forget myself, that's a knock out competition isn't it!?

You pedantics will get you no-where.

I was just pointing out the flaws of omitting his cup runs from his record last season. Of course he lost only one in the FA Cup, but he won four, and won ten in the UEFA before losing a game.

Lemlin

You are a good man for the crystal ball. You are claiming Blackburn would have definitely been relegated based on the first four games of the season when he was in charge? Ridiculous.

Blackburn were on a downward spiral. Souness was doing absolutely nothing to pull them out of it. He was playing Lorenzo Amoruso in defence for god's sake! I've no doubt that if he'd stayed they would of went down, crystal ball or not.

The players that helped us to stay up were Ryan Nelsen, Morten Gamst Pedersen and Aaron Mokoena. Two were signings' of Mark Hughes, the other never started a game under Souness.

Going by your logic so every new player is "unproven", so how can you criticise him for signing "unproven" players. If Newcastle signed, Henry, Ronaldinho, Terry, and Makelele they all would have been "unproven" according to you. No doubt you would criticised Souness for signing "unproven" players too.

With the exception of Rebrov, all of the players you mentioned were in their early 20s when signed and unproven bar a single good season or two.

With the exception of Emre, all of Souness's players have been established as first choice senior team players for at least four or five years, and good players at that.

Oh, so you want proven players who came to the Prermiship and didn't succeed. Well, what about Davor Suker at Arsenal, Ilie Dumitrescu at Tottenham, Adrian Mutu at Chelsea, Hernan Crespo at Chelsa, Juan Sebastian Veron at Man Utd. And, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not saying players like Emre won't be top class. What I am saying is that you seem to be taking it as a given fact that they will be. Luque, Emre etc. haven't even played 5 games yet and you're hailing them as great sigings. Whether they are great signings remains to be seen. That's my point.

PHB

Getting pissed off at a player and going nuts for footballing reasons imo is acceptable.
Souness tends to have countless arguments with players, not just about football, but about personal issues. There is a difference

---

Owens move was an incredible success for Souness.
17 million was a brilliant price to pay, why?

Because Owen's first choice was Liverpool, there is no doubt about that.
If Newcastle had bid say 8 million, it would have been rejected.
It newcastle had bid 12 million, perhaps it would have been accepted.
Liverpool aswell would have bid 12 million, and even though it would have been accepted, Owen would have chosen Liverpool.
So Newcastle bid 17 million, this did a couple of things
First off it priced out Liverpool
Secondly it gave Real Madrid a real incentive to sell
Thirdly, it gave Owen the clearcut option
Owen had no choice but to choose Newcastle.

Sure maybe Owen is only worth 12 million, but there is no way Newcastle could have gotten him for 12 million.
So its the choice of
Owen for 17 million
No owen

I think Souness made the right choice

evilhomer

lemlin wrote:

I choose one a bit closer to St James Park it might sink in: was Hugo Viana not supposed to be the best young player coming out of Portugal? All 8.5 million worth of him, where is he now?

Hugo Viana spent all last season in Sporting Lisbon, played out of his skin.
He just doesn't suit the premiership (Maybe another season would be different), doesn't help that he is home sick!
He is still a very good player and still very young.

You always take a risk when you buy youth.
There is a list of young players that have made it and a list that haven't. All teams have a player or two that didn't make it.
Man Utd: Djemba Djemba, Bellion.
Liverpool: Bruno Cheyrou
Arsenal: Francis Jeffers
Chelsea: Glen Johnson (poor by chelsea standards)
There just of the top of my head.

The players Newcastle have signed this summer are not young lads.

evilhomer

PHB wrote:

Getting pissed off at a player and going nuts for footballing reasons imo is acceptable.
Souness tends to have countless arguments with players, not just about football, but about personal issues. There is a difference

Do you think if I threw a shoe at one of my fellow employees because his code was poor that is professional? (would I still have a job? No)

Regardless of the occupation, violence to a fellow employee is unacceptable and unprofessional!

Jivin Turkey

Lemlin wrote:

Blackburn were on a downward spiral. Souness was doing absolutely nothing to pull them out of it. He was playing Lorenzo Amoruso in defence for god's sake! I've no doubt that if he'd stayed they would of went down, crystal ball or not.

The players that helped us to stay up were Ryan Nelsen, Morten Gamst Pedersen and Aaron Mokoena. Two were signings' of Mark Hughes, the other never started a game under Souness.

There is no point in arguing over what would have happened because neither of us can show/prove what would have happened.

To claim that they definitely would have gone down is ridiculous after four games, particularly in a year where teams finished with as little as 34 points and still survived.

Lemlin wrote:

Oh, so you want proven players who came to the Prermiship and didn't succeed. Well, what about Davor Suker at Arsenal, Ilie Dumitrescu at Tottenham, Adrian Mutu at Chelsea, Hernan Crespo at Chelsa, Juan Sebastian Veron at Man Utd. And, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not saying players like Emre won't be top class. What I am saying is that you seem to be taking it as a given fact that they will be. Luque, Emre etc. haven't even played 5 games yet and you're hailing them as great sigings. Whether they are great signings remains to be seen. That's my point.

No, I said all of his signings are potentially world class, aside from Owen who is without a doubt. And have always used that term in addressing them.

PHB wrote:

Getting pissed off at a player and going nuts for footballing reasons imo is acceptable.
Souness tends to have countless arguments with players, not just about football, but about personal issues. There is a difference

Souness got pissed off with the likes of Bellamy/Robert/Yorke because of their attitude to football, matches and training.

What personal issues were involved?

Lemlin

Originally posted by Kjdac
David Dunn wouldnt play in a position Souness wanted him too. Who is unprofessional there?
Yorke is a beer monster who missed training 3 times in 2 weeks, again whos the professional?
Bellamy wouldnt play in a certain position, again professional?

These guys are on a lot of money to play, they should just do what the manager says and get on with it. The players were unprofessional imo in all the above cases.

You're wrong there. Dunn left because he fell out with Souness' because Souness didn't appreciate his lifestyle ie. dating a bird from Emmerdale and turning up at crap like the soap awards. It was nothing to do with positions. Jesus, I'd love to see how he'd handle Beckham!

I'm not sure where you got your facts on Yorke but they sound untrue.

Bellamy wouldn't play in a position where he didn't believe he could do the team or fans justice. And he also had to sit back and be the supply line for Paddy Kluivert who couldn't score in a brothel last season. He tried explaining this to Souness. Souness, in all his man management brilliance, ordered Bellamy to play there or not play. Not listening to the opinion of the player at all. Who's unprofessional there?

No, I said all of his signings are potentially world class, aside from Owen who is without a doubt. And have always used that term in addressing them.

Perhaps you have but I don't se how Souness can be praised for paying over the odds for players who are unproven. Alot of Newcastle fans on this thread, and the Michael Owen one, have talked about his exceptional signings. They are good players but does Souness have what it takes to get the best out of them?

You only have to look at the way Andy Cole is performing at City now or Morten Gamst Pedersen at Blackburn to see that Souness cannot get the best out of players.

Souness got pissed off with the likes of Bellamy/Robert/Yorke because of their attitude to football, matches and training.

What personal issues were involved?

As explained above, with Dunn it was personal issues. You may not have mentioned him there.

Hugo Viana spent all last season in Sporting Lisbon, played out of his skin.
He just doesn't suit the premiership (Maybe another season would be different), doesn't help that he is home sick!
He is still a very good player and still very young.

Pardon my sarcasm but what good is it for Newcastle to spend 8.5 million on a player who can't perform in the Premiership? In time to come will you be using the same excuses for wasting money on Emre or Luque? That's what I am waiting to see.

MrJoeSoap

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I remember clearly the season 96/97. Souness had Southampton playing great football. Only six teams scored more goals than them. They had a total goal difference of -6. Matt Le Tissier and Egil Ostenstad bagged loads of goals, and along with Eyal Berkovic looked cracking players. They put 6 past Man United! For the first time in years Southampton were safe going into the last day.

I'm only going to comment on the Southampton part but you have definitely put a massive spin on this.

Wikipedia wrote:

replaced by former Liverpool and Glasgow Rangers manager Graeme Souness.

Southampton fared little better in 1996-97 despite the arrival of Souness, whose track record included two Scottish league titles with Rangers and an FA Cup victory with Liverpool. He resigned after just one season in charge, which had seen Southampton finish 16th in the Premiership

We finished one point above Sunderland who were relegated. Any pro-Graeme Souness argument should be opposed by two words:

Ali Dia

Dempsey

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Any pro-Graeme Souness argument should be opposed by two words:

Ali Dia

Ha Ha. Souness is a plonker

Jivin Turkey

Lemlin wrote:

You're wrong there. Dunn left because he fell out with Souness' because Souness didn't appreciate his lifestyle ie. dating a bird from Emmerdale and turning up at crap like the soap awards. It was nothing to do with positions. Jesus, I'd love to see how he'd handle Beckham!

Dunn's lifestyle was causing him fitness problems. He was overweight. He still is. We have the benefit of hindsight now, and getting £5.5M for Dunn was a shrewd piece of business by Souness.

Lemlin wrote:

I'm not sure where you got your facts on Yorke but they sound untrue.

Yorke has a well documented party lifestyle. Ask Alex Ferguson. You don't put a bun in Jordan's oven by staying in on a Saturday night watching The Late Late Show.

Lemlin wrote:

Bellamy wouldn't play in a position where he didn't believe he could do the team or fans justice. And he also had to sit back and be the supply line for Paddy Kluivert who couldn't score in a brothel last season. He tried explaining this to Souness. Souness, in all his man management brilliance, ordered Bellamy to play there or not play. Not listening to the opinion of the player at all. Who's unprofessional there?

Kluivert hit 13 goals in 25 starts for Newcastle, and didnt have the benefit of playing against Falkirk and St Mirren for six months like Bellamy, who only hit six more goals than last year.

Due to squad constraints Bellamy was asked to do a job. Under the second manager in a row, Bellamy refused.

Lemlin wrote:

Perhaps you have but I don't se how Souness can be praised for paying over the odds for players who are unproven. Alot of Newcastle fans on this thread, and the Michael Owen one, have talked about his exceptional signings. They are good players but does Souness have what it takes to get the best out of them?

I don't feel Souness has payed over the odds for any of his signings, but arguing this with you is like hammering my head off a brick wall, because if Souness signed Henry you would also say he is "unproven".

Lemlin wrote:

You only have to look at the way Andy Cole is performing at City now or Morten Gamst Pedersen at Blackburn to see that Souness cannot get the best out of players.

Andy Cole has been at two clubs since Blackburn. He has played four games for City. He is no indication of what Souness can or can not get out of a player. Particularly when he did ok at Blackburn.

Morten Gamst Pedersen was not strong enough when he came to the Premiership. Mark Hughes also had him in the reserves for four months before he broke into the first team.

Lemlin wrote:

As explained above, with Dunn it was personal issues. You may not have mentioned him there.

Personal issues that were having an effect on his ability to play football. As I said, getting rid of Dunn was shrewd business.

Lemlin wrote:

Pardon my sarcasm but what good is it for Newcastle to spend 8.5 million on a player who can't perform in the Premiership? In time to come will you be using the same excuses for wasting money on Emre or Luque? That's what I am waiting to see.

Having seen Emre play already, and also a not fully fit Luque against one of the toughest opposition in the league, I wouldn't bank on any excuses being made.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I'm only going to comment on the Southampton part but you have definitely put a massive spin on this.

I havn't put any spin on this. I remember that season clearly. It was watching Southampton that year that made me realise that Souness wasn't that bad at all. I used to hate him for what he did to Liverpool.

Everything I said is pure fact.

A team finishing a poiont of relegation with a -6 goal difference is not a regular occurance. They were hard to beat and dished out some beatings themselves. The reason they only finished a point above Sunderland is because they lost their last game of the season, something that they were not able to do in many years previous and subsequent. Under Souness they had a cushion going into the last day. If they had won that game they would have finished 13th.

Lemlin

Dunn's lifestyle was causing him fitness problems. He was overweight. He still is. We have the benefit of hindsight now, and getting £5.5M for Dunn was a shrewd piece of business by Souness.

So these fitness problems are the reason he was captain of the England Under 21 squad for years and was just after being part of the senior squad when Souness sold him? It may have been a shrewd bit of business now (seeing as Dunn has been injured alot) but at the time there was outcry that Dunn had been sold for as little as 5.5 million.

And quite rightly so. Dunn always had an Andy Reid-style physique, doesn't mean he ws overweight though, and din't seem to stop him getting from box to box and knocking in plenty of goals from midfield.

He's actually held in such high regard at Ewood Park that alot of Rovers fans hope he will come back. He's regularly spotted at matches.

Kluivert hit 13 goals in 25 starts for Newcastle, and didnt have the benefit of playing against Falkirk and St Mirren for six months like Bellamy, who only hit six more goals than last year.

Due to squad constraints Bellamy was asked to do a job. Under the second manager in a row, Bellamy refused.

So, let me get this right, are you trying to argue that Kluivert was a good signing for Newcastle? Well, if you are then there's no point debating anything with you, it appears that you'd swear by the devil if he wore black and white.

Bellamy is a creator more than a finisher. He scored goals but creates them too. Do you not find it interesting that Shearer isn't scoring as much since Bellamy left? He may be getting old but other factors, such as Bellamy's departure, are also playing a part.

You seem to be quickly forgetting all he did for Newcastle. I've actually a video called Farewell Bellers that I'd love to show you. It was made by Newcastle fans, sad to see one of their cult heroes leave. Perhaps it will remind you of some of what you've forgotten so easily.

Andy Cole has been at two clubs since Blackburn. He has played four games for City. He is no indication of what Souness can or can not get out of a player. Particularly when he did ok at Blackburn.

Morten Gamst Pedersen was not strong enough when he came to the Premiership. Mark Hughes also had him in the reserves for four months before he broke into the first team.

Souness, in all his wisdom, said that Cole would do not anything for Blackburn and was past it. Cole scored 13 goals for Fulham last year, more than any Blackburn striker. He's now scored more than any Newcastle player this year!

I could go on all day about players who've performed much better under other managers than Souness. The list is endless. Just look at the Newcastle team though. Most of them performed much better under Bobby Robson.

And to Ali Dia, I'd like to add CORRADO GRABBI

What more can I say, Graeme Souness, a shrewd man in the transfer market indeed!

Jonny Arson

Corrado Grabbi!!!!!! ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah that Souness bloke is a right old eejit.

Jivin Turkey

Lemlin wrote:

So these fitness problems are the reason he was captain of the England Under 21 squad for years and was just after being part of the senior squad when Souness sold him? It may have been a shrewd bit of business now (seeing as Dunn has been injured alot) but at the time there was outcry that Dunn had been sold for as little as 5.5 million.

Dunn is almost 26, he probably didnt have the same lifestyle as he did when he was eligible for the U21s.

You cant possibly argue that selling Dunn for "as little as £5.5M" wasn't good business. He has played less than 30 league games for Birmingham in two years. We have the benefit in hindsight.

Lemlin wrote:

And quite rightly so. Dunn always had an Andy Reid-style physique, doesn't mean he ws overweight though, and din't seem to stop him getting from box to box and knocking in plenty of goals from midfield.

He's actually held in such high regard at Ewood Park that alot of Rovers fans hope he will come back. He's regularly spotted at matches.

Dunn was overweight.

The reason he is held in such high regard at Ewood is because he is a local lad, and a useful enough player. It still doesn't change the fact that Blackburn benefited more selling him.

Lemlin wrote:

So, let me get this right, are you trying to argue that Kluivert was a good signing for Newcastle? Well, if you are then there's no point debating anything with you, it appears that you'd swear by the devil if he wore black and white.

Eh, no. What Im arguing is that its blatantly obvious that Patrick Kluivert could score in a brothel, and in fact his scoring record at Newcastle was actually very good.

Lemlin wrote:

Bellamy is a creator more than a finisher. He scored goals but creates them too. Do you not find it interesting that Shearer isn't scoring as much since Bellamy left? He may be getting old but other factors, such as Bellamy's departure, are also playing a part.

Im afraid I dont find it interesting that Shearer isn't scoring as much seeing as he scored eight in fifteen following Bellamys departure.

He had a barren spell then at the end of the season which coincided with the overall teams form. The teams loss of form had nothing to do with Craig Bellamy.

Lemlin wrote:

You seem to be quickly forgetting all he did for Newcastle. I've actually a video called Farewell Bellers that I'd love to show you. It was made by Newcastle fans, sad to see one of their cult heroes leave. Perhaps it will remind you of some of what you've forgotten so easily.

Im not disputing that Craig Bellamy is a good footballer. Or that he was idolised by the fans.

But to get rid such a trouble maker, who's ability at the highest level could be questioned at times, and replace him with a model professional of undoubted talent, is good business.

Lemlin wrote:

Souness, in all his wisdom, said that Cole would do not anything for Blackburn and was past it. Cole scored 13 goals for Fulham last year, more than any Blackburn striker. He's now scored more than any Newcastle player this year!

I could go on all day about players who've performed much better under other managers than Souness. The list is endless. Just look at the Newcastle team though. Most of them performed much better under Bobby Robson.

And to Ali Dia, I'd like to add CORRADO GRABBI

What more can I say, Graeme Souness, a shrewd man in the transfer market indeed!

Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market. Every manager has successes. Its called football. Putting words in big letters is not going to change that.

MrJoeSoap

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market.

But only Souness could play a player in a Premiership game that he signed on account of seeing a picture of him with George Weah. Honestly, how can you have any respect for a manager who can do this? He had never seen the guy kick a ball, yet he brought him off the bench and quickly returned him to wherever he had come from. He's the Eddie The Eagle of soccer!

And to quote laughfc.com:

After such a humiliation, you would expect that Souness would have learnt his lesson about taking on a player who clearly can’t play football. I guess this wouldn’t be the right time to mention the £7m he spent on Corrado Grabbi then… oops!

Ali Dia and Graeme Souness… we salute you!