Firearms Cert. for 9mm Pistol

Riggser

What I have:

Membership to a well known gun club, in Ireland. Proof? Membership card.
Letter and receipt from shop, for the purchased 9mm pistol, Nothern Ireland.
2 forms of ID.
Nearly 6 years in the Irish Defense Forces, instructor on various weapons, LMG, Rifle and Pistol.
Lovely.

Went to my local Garda station. Told in no uncertain terms that a monitored alarm on the premises I wish to hold the weapon, a safe to hold the weapon and have undergone a course of safety and instruction on a/the pistol is part of the creteria of applying for a Firearms Cert for a 9mm pistol. The above 3 I don't have at this time. Fact that I'm in the Defense Forces was irrelevent, according to the Garda dealing with me. My choice of gun club was also commented on in a less than favourable manner. Signed the application with my details on it.

The application, as far as I know, has gone through.

I've read a bit on different situations regarding gun licenses, importing, clubs and the like. I see myself a third of the way through, since I've bought a pistol, member of a gun club and now have applied for a license. The only thing the Garda dealing with me wasn't very convinced with me. Should I be worrying?

Rew

monitored alarm and safe are a given pretty much anywhere you go. You may even be required to have a specfic PIR pointed at the area the safe is in.

Being TOET'd on a BAP should be more then enough for them, ask your C/O to write a letter saying as much and then tell the Garda that if he still thinks your unsafe he had better get on to the minister to get you sacked.

I would be intrested to know which gun club he was frowning upon...?

Riggser

I clearly saw his point of view; here was an applicant for a pistol license with only a gun club membership card and a note from the gun shop.

What really pissed me off was the fact he did nothing to educate me more in what had to be done to defintely know that I was going to get the license with little or no bother. The fact that I don't have the security arrangements mentioned is not compulsary, I know people who went through the process without them. Then again it always comes down to the type of Garda you come across.

Dvs

Riggser wrote:

I clearly saw his point of view; here was an applicant for a pistol license with only a gun club membership card and a note from the gun shop.

I don't understand what you mean by this?
what else, could the Garda expect you to produce, in relation to a firearms license application?

Riggser wrote:

What really pissed me off was the fact he did nothing to educate me more in what had to be done to defintely know that I was going to get the license with little or no bother.

Thats because he has not got a clue himself !!!

just that this might be a problem, if he signs the recomendation on the back of your application, he might be making a decision and thats bad !!

Much better to fob you off, with some spurious requirements, not contained in the firearms act!!!

Then just file that application in the hold tray. :rolleyes:

Riggser wrote:

The fact that I don't have the security arrangements mentioned is not compulsary, I know people who went through the process without them. Then again it always comes down to the type of Garda you come across

This is true,
Ring the Superintendent in your district make an appointment to see him.

He is the man that grants you, or does not grant you the licence, but this is within the bounds of the firearms act,if you meet the criteria and are not disentitled under the act, not his personal preference.

Read the firearms act and its ammendments,
when you think you understand it,
Read it again!

After you have spoken to your Superintendent and know what his position is,
if you are not happy with it contact the SSAI and the NARGC.

Do not agree to meet any requirements or stipulations, not contained in the firearms act, the fact that the firearm is a pistol, makes no difference in the eyes of the law.

Dvs.

Riggser

The Garda wanted more documents in front of him basically. When I say more he wanted to see proof of courses done with pistols, such as a safety/range course, this is what annoyed me when he didn't care much for the fact that I'm a current serving member of the Defense Forces. I instruct and test people on weapons handling and safety, obviously a letter from my CO would sort that out.

The application is now, hopefully, in progress. After being advised by friends about the "incident" at the station they all said don't worry about it, it's a case of there is NO reason for the Super not to give me a license.

Riggser

Having read other posts on applying for a pistol license and the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 (Section 4 of the Firearms Act 1924 amendment), there is nothing to say that a monitored house alarm is a requirement for a pistol license, when I went to my local station the Garda read out to me recommeded creteria for obtaining a pistol license, including a monitored house alarm. I have a safe for the pistol and I'm a member of a well known gun club, but no monitored house alarm. €3000 was quoted to me in having one installed.

1) What can I do if the Super tells me a monitored house alarm is needed? Turn around and tell him that it's not needed according to Irish law?

2) Can I store the pistol in some else's premises who does?

3) Could I store it in a gun club?

It's frustrating, talking to people within the Irish shooting scene, I should be able to get the license without the alarm. Contacting the local Super about this I don't think is a good idea since he may grant the license without me asking questions, a wait and see approach. A few ideas and comments would be greatly appreciated.

Sparks

Thing is Riggser, that while there's case law and precedent preventing a blanket precondition being put on an application for a firearm, there's nothing about individual preconditions, except for comments from the Supreme Court judge to the effect that he'd be of the opinion that that was perfectly legal. And under section 4, the second condition is

( b ) can be permitted to have in his possession, use, and carry a firearm or
ammunition without danger to the public safety or to the peace,

And the super can claim (validly in some areas) that a monitored house alarm is a necessary thing from the point of view of public safety.

I don't think you can store the pistol in someone else's premises unless that person has no access to it (ie. only you have the combination to the safe) or that person had a licence for the firearm as well. And in the former case, you'd still have an argument on your hands

And you could store it in a gun club if the same conditions were met, but the gun club would need secured storage and I don't know of any that do at the moment. And putting in secure storage would be very expensive as you'd have a lot of valuable firearms in one spot so you'd need some serious security to prevent burgalry.

If you have a nearby registered firearms dealer who's willing, however, to store the pistol for you, the super would probably accept that quite readily, since they tend to use dealers for storage themselves (most garda stations wouldn't have secure storage facilities for firearms, though the larger ones often would).

Basicly, your suffering from unfortunate timing - with the CJB still up in the air, everyone's too busy watching to see where it's going to fall to be taking even small risks with licensing

Riggser

Look before you leap is the lesson learned here.

What should be known to all before they buy a pistol is they need:

1) A monitored house alarm, approved by the Gardai (i.e Eircom Phonewatch).

2) A gun safe to the required British Standard approved by the Gardai.

3) Membership to at least one well known Gun Club with an appropriate pistol range.

4) Have insurance to shoot at that paticular gun club.

5) Have undergone a course in pistol and range safety, although not required is highly recommended.

6) A note from the Gun Dealer from which you purchased the gun, including the serial number.

7) Visual or written proof of all of the above, to be shown to the initial interviewing Garda when applying for the pistol license, along with 2 forms of ID.

8) And proof that your not a nut job looking to blow stuff up.

Thats the procedure, from what I gather, that someone has to do to gain a license for a pistol. The points above are for someone who is starting from scratch and has no license or experience reagarding the use of any type of firearm.

Smirky

Hi Riggser, sounds like you are just coming up against an arse of a cop who is going out of his way to make it difficult for you!

I contacted the Firearms Officer in my local Garda Station and could not get him off the phone he was that helpful! 40 minutes, I kid you not! He even offered to give me phone numbers of various ranges & clubs! We debated the pros & cons of the 9mm H&K USP 9 that I was enquiring about, while he mused on the recent Glock & Magnum 357 he had authorised for licence and he talked me through the whole process as follows:

1) Join a club with pistol shooting facilities, get your insurance etc
2) Fill in the documents & bring them into the desk of the station, including serial number from your Gun Dealer etc
3) The Gardai send off to Harcourt St to make sure you have been a good boy & not fraternising with the boys in Columbia
4) A Firearms Officer will call to your house to inspect where & how the gun is being safely stored. (I was told monitored security, probably with a seperate PIR / Zone for the gun storage area as the cops can see if this zone is attacked immediately if your alarm is tripped, gun safe bolted in to a load bearing wall & out of sight)
5) Once all this is done & checked the Firearms officer writes up the documentation & passes it to the area Superintendant who ultimately signs off on the documentation & issues your licence.

Try & ensure you speak to the firearms officer in your local station & not just a regular gardai (all Gardai on the desk will deal with your query but the Fireams Officer is the one to try & get hold of). You can normally get a name & get them on the phone or arrange to meet them personally. Also check with the person who will be doing the safety inspection on your house, ask for their advice & abide by it.

It has been inferred to me that the average Garda does not have the same enthusiasm to licencing pistols as the the Firearms officer might, which is understandable as they are the ones who get them pointed at them most! It is also a fact that your average Garda receives no firearms training & there have been alledged instances where guns have been found by the public & brought into the station only to find that the Garda on duty did not know how to make them safe!

If you have an alarm in the house already, you can get monitoring capability in for a couiple of hundred euro & then annual monitoring comes in at approx €300 per annum. €3,000 is complete bull. I got my whole system from scratch, with extras for €1,000. PM me if you want the name of the company & a copy of the quote.

What club did you join & what is your local garda station?

S

Chipboard

I'm sure it depends on the FO your dealing with but mine was quite happy with an alarm monitored by me and two friends. You can buy a digital communicator which can be hooked up to your alarm and will dial 4 numbers and play a pre-recorded message if there is an activation. You can then dial in to it and talk to whoever is in the house or listen to them or if your happy thats its a false alarm you can reset the alarm. Its every bit as good as an Eircom monitored alarm if you have people you can trust living nearby and as long as your contactable. I cant understand why people pay for Eircom monitored alarms these days when we're all walking around with mobiles which can be used to inform us if we have been broken into. I worked with a security company while in College and I can tell you that most patrol drivers take their sweet time when driving to an activation anyway to make sure they aren't 'primary thru the door' as the US cops say.

Riggser

Then talking turkey, with no alarm in the house at the moment, what should I go for or what company will be the best for a monitored alarm? Preferably one that informs me on the mobile and no bells and whistles.

Flattop 15

Go for Eircom phonewatch.It is about the best of a bad bunch.I installed mine four months ago,and it is intresting to see a question on the Garda part of the application paperwork.Are there firearms stored on the premises? I answerd.YES PLENTY!
One thing I do know from experiance and garda contacts,is they WILL respond double quick to an address with firearms on the premises.So even if your Telly and DVD are going out the door,there is a better than average chance of it being recoverd. Plus they cant moan about it as it is THE national standard in alarm fitting and monitoring.

Chipboard

Aritech and HKC are the most recognised alarms in Ireland and they both can be fitted with digital communicators thus saving yourself setting up yet another direct debit to Eircom.

Rew

There should be discounts for alarms and monitored alarms from your house insurance company. Worth checking anyway, might off set some of the costs.

Rovi

I was recently doing a bit of sorting out on the monitored alarm in our local national school.
The guy I was talking to on site told me that the Gardai will shortly be changing their guidelines on responding to monitored alarms. According to him, the Guards will in future only respond when two sensors are tripped. Apparently they are getting too many false alarms when one sensor trips for no apparent reason.

As I said, this is what a bloke in the industry told me, so it may or may not ever happen.

.

Riggser

I've sent off for a quote from Eircom Phonewatch, but what am I looking at in terms of cost? On average?

Flattop 15

On a 15 room Georgeian house,doing the lower floor and half the vunerable points on the upper floor with wireless alarm systems it ran me E 2000.
Assuming you dont have such a large lump of a house ,I would say E500/600.
It SHOULD also knock your hose insurance preminium by appx 15%.If it is a New house >4years the alarm wiring should be in theres as standard.So knock a few quid off the estimate for that as well.

cantona

Company in Dublin did my alarm and it is monitored thru C.P.Bell(Garda approved).Had old alarm in but not working, replaced broken sensors,new panel, new bellbox,2 safes alarmed, and beam installed.Alarm calls monitoring company and texts me and 2 other people.Total price €600.C.P.Bell charge €160 per year for monitoring (but maybe you just want the texts and don't need them)PM for number and details of company

Riggser

Coming into the third week since I applied for the pistol license. Can't even remember the specific date I went into the Garda station.

Should I be considering ringing the stations Firearms Officer by this stage?

cantona

Most guards reckon that if they ignore you, you will go away(ostrich syndrome).Ring or call to him.Processing in the Park is done on the day, so any delay is down to the guards

Dvs

Hello Riggser,
As I posted earlier in the thread,
Your Superintendent is the one making the decision,do your self a favour and phone his office and make an appointment to meet him.

This will cut out one level of delaying and you will hear from him directly if he has any issues that you need to address for him,
such as,

what you want the pistol for?
what kind of shooting you intend to take part in?
where you intend to do your pistol shooting?
how you will secure it.

Do not entertain or agree to, any conditions or requirements,
that are not contained in the firearms act!
i.e. range authorisation, range certification etc.

Dvs.

Riggser

The pistol is for target shooting and pistol competitions in Ireland, Northern Ireland and abroad, hopefully.

I have a BS 7885 safe bolted to the wall in a lockable room. No monitored alarm.

If he turns around and says no due to not having an alarm on the house or even zoned on the room, what is the best action to take in that situation?

Sparks

Depends on whether you want a quiet life or not I guess Riggser
You *could* take it to court, get a judicial review, and challange the decision (and the Dunne v. Donoghue judicial comments on individual preconditions); but I don't think you'd have much in the way of precedent to support your case and it'd be expensive, time-consuming and probably overruled before it's finished by the CJB.

I'd say you would in all probabliity be better off just (pardon the pun) biting the bullet and getting the house alarm. At worst, well, you've just secured your home and other valuables as well, haven't you? It comes down to what you want to do in the end. If you're more interested in the shooting, just take the expedient route and get the alarm. At least it's an outlay that benefits your entire home. You could even call the house insurance people and try for a reduction in your premium if you were feeling hard-nosed about it. (And then spend the savings on training of course )

Riggser

€500 or there abouts is what it costs to have a monitored zone alarm installed by the fantastic Eircom Phonewatch people but for the room only. There is no way I'm paying €3000 that was quoted to me to have the whole house alarmed.

I should be hearing from the Super pretty soon anyway.

Clare gunner

Contact me offline I might be able to help you out with somthing cheaper.

Riggser

How long should it take for you application to go from FO to Super and then back to you?

cantona

This is where much delay takes place.Your F.O. will usually take a few days to check and double check your application.Then he sends it to the Super with his recommendation.The Super then has to take his few days to consider it.Then it goes to Special Branch (if it is your first application for a cert.)Super then gets it back and considers it for a few more days before sending it to the Park.IT IS DEALT WITH IN THE PARK ON THE SAME DAY (allow 2-3 days for transmission up to and back from Park) and sent back to Super.He then takes a few more days(weeks) for him to make sure that he made the right decision in the first place.Then it goes back to your F.O. where he takes a few days(weeks)for him to make sure that he made the right decision.

That is why it is so important for you to keep in contact with both your F.O. and Super, and to keep the pressure on.In a perfect world from you filling out your application to getting your cert should take no more than 2 weeks.

Clare gunner

Try TEN MONTHS and counting!!!!
Numerous questions answerd,alarm installed[not on the Garda recomedation,but needed doing anyway] numerous phone calls to the station,to make appointment to see the Super,just fob offs that he will ring back[four sofar].One hand deliverd letter to station last month,no reply,yesterday a registerd letter with proof of delivery request.If this doesnt shift things the next letter will be a solicitors letter as to why the delay that is even contary to the Garda constitution to the public with dealing with matters promptly and fairly.

LB6

Two months waiting.

Have done same as all of the above and have received the same reactions from station. My next job so is a registered letter. Not going to give them a month tho. Two week limit.


Shar.

Wouldn't mind, it's not even a 9mm, its a 22/45!

Dvs

LB6 wrote:

Wouldn't mind, it's not even a 9mm, its a 22/45!

Shar,
You know, as well as I,
that in relation to the granting of a firearms licence by a Superintendent,
that no distinction is contained in the firearms act and it ammendments, regarding the calibre of a firearm. :rolleyes:.

Dvs.

woody

Riggser wrote:

Then talking turkey, with no alarm in the house at the moment, what should I go for or what company will be the best for a monitored alarm? Preferably one that informs me on the mobile and no bells and whistles.

I have an eircom phone watch also since myself and my dad are me ex-army him current, you should'nt have an issue are you FCA or PDF