Hypothetical Situation - A peacefully achieved United Ireland

Hagar

I would ask all posters to be forward looking and not go over past horrors on all sides. Try to put mistrust aside. Try to believe that your current polical opponent is just that, somebody's elected representative. I know it's a lot to ask but in reality an acceptance like that I think would be the only way it would ever work.

If this were to come about what practical changes would actually take place between North & South and the joint relationship with Great Britain.
For instance the last sentence said Great Britain not the United Kingdom as the United Kingdom would have ceased to exist per se. How would this affect how we view ourselves?

Should the Constitution be amended or scrapped and rewritten?
What protections should be written in? Not just for Orange and Green but for Black, Brown, Yellow and any other shades you can name.
How could we sucessfully split church and state? With particular attention to education.
What about policing, army, social services, abortion, political representation, education and countless other facets of of everyday lives?
Where should our seat of Government be? What should it be called?
Could all current political parties be mature enough to look foward with genuine hope in their hearts?
Should the Tricolour be scrapped as it would a reminder of the division between Orange and Green? What would a good replacement be.
Should the Union Flag be changed as it would no longer encompass the Irish element ie the cross of St. Patrick. Indeed should the Royal Coat of arms be changed to remove the Harp for the same reason.

What is the future of Orangeism or Republicanism in Ireland ? Is there any need for either? If there is, how can we accomodate each others traditions in our sense of Unity.

There's probably a million other questions. Feel free to add some. Feel free to propose answers to little bits of the puzzle.

In this future muppets would not exist. So let's imagine a thread without them.

murphaph

Interesting post.

Well the UK wouldn't cease to exist. It'd just be a UK without NI. Their flag and royal coat of arms would have to be changed to reflect the new situation. Our flag should be changed. It's not inclusive of anyone who doesn't consider themselves catholic or protestant! Hardly the image of inclusive, diverse Ireland. Our constitution has been purged of church involvement already, thank God .

Our parliament, now that would best stay in Dublin as the largest city. The whole system of representation with 3 or 4 waster TDs representing areas the size of postage stamps should go. Far too many TDs in Ireland, the last thing we need is more politicians but we all know that. I'd be in favour of regional and metropolitan assemblies with local tax raising powers. Maybe then Dublin and the other cities would get their fair share of infrastructure and those who choose to live in one-off housing in the back of beyond would have to pay a premium for all the extra roads maintenance they cause etc.

The whole system of county councils corresponding exactly to old county boundaries needs to be looked at. We all know greater Dublin and Limerick, Waterford etc. extend into areas which their city councils have no planning control over. This leads to a chaotic mess of in-fighting councillors.

biko

Why not take the opportunity to start over? I wouldn't mind seeing something like Eire Nua, provincial governing with a federal government based in Dublin. This would be good as a decentralised government would, hopefully, mean that each capital, Dublin, Cork, Galway and Belfast would look mainly to the interests in the region, i.e. health care, infrastructure, schools and community issues. I get the feeling that since today the government is based in Dublin, it regards the rest of the country as second priority. Infrastructure, businesses etc gets more attenition there than the rest of us. For instance, why not put IKEA in Athlone? It'd be central, bring a lot of jobs to the region and you know people is gonna drive there from all over the place anyway but nooooo :mad:

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

Interesting post.

Well the UK wouldn't cease to exist. It'd just be a UK without NI

O

The UK without NI would just be Britain

Misticles

It would be the united kingdom of england scotland and wales, and maybe the IOM but thats anothr days debate

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The UK without NI would just be Britain

It would be called the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Simple really!

cal29

The chances are that a united Ireland would probably involve a six counties with pretty much the good friday institutions that would answer to dublin rather than london

This would offer the stability to Unionists that things would not be forced on them and that live would continue pretty much as it had done under the GFA answering to london

Obviously some stuff would change currency for example presuming the Euro still exists and that the UK had not joined by that time

Mr.Nice Guy

I think a common misconception about a United Ireland is the view that it would simply be the Republic of Ireland swallowing up Northern Ireland. This would not be the case. We would witness the end of both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and the creation of an entirely new all-Ireland State so yes, a new constitution would of course be required.

billy the squid

Our flag should be changed. It's not inclusive of anyone who doesn't consider themselves catholic or protestant! Hardly the image of inclusive, diverse Ireland. Our constitution has been purged of church involvement already, thank God

Isn't the orange portion of our flag meant to represent those who are of protestant persuasion?

The whole system of county councils corresponding exactly to old county boundaries needs to be looked at. We all know greater Dublin and Limerick, Waterford etc. extend into areas which their city councils have no planning control over. This leads to a chaotic mess of in-fighting councillors.

I would agree with this. The evidence for this can be found in the bitching and bickering between Limerick City Council, Clare county council, Tipperary County Council and Limerick County council over a boundry extension for a Limerick City which needs space to build social housing for the 12,000 people on their waiting lists.

On the subject of what a united ireland would bring. There would still be the large portion of those who were not happy to be ruled by a dublin guvernment causing trouble. The militant unionists, the likes of the Orange order etc, do not come accross as the type of people who would readily accept being ruled by a dublin government.

The only suggestion I can think of is something similar to what happened in Hong Kong, where the british and Chinese governments agreed that the brittish would pull out after a certain number of years. those who wanted to remain under the rule of the Queen could go back to the UK and had several years to prepare. after which the Hong Kong peninsula was returned to the Chinese and those who chose to stay knew that they would be under the rule of the chinese government and laws.

murphaph

billy the squid wrote:

Isn't the orange portion of our flag meant to represent those who are of protestant persuasion?

Read my post again. billy It's not an inclusive flag unless you're catholic or protestant. Ireland's flag shouldn't just represent two branches of christianity (or any religion IMO). I was baptised catholic but have no affinity with organised religion of any sort now that I've had time tothink about it. There are plenty like me and plenty more Muslims, Hindus, Jews and whatever else who aren't represented by our flag.

billy the squid wrote:

On the subject of what a united ireland would bring. There would still be the large portion of those who were not happy to be ruled by a dublin guvernment causing trouble. The militant unionists, the likes of the Orange order etc, do not come accross as the type of people who would readily accept being ruled by a dublin government.

To be fair-the OP did say 'if the untity was achieved peacefully'. It is a very hypothetical post but still a good 'un IMO.

cal29

murphaph wrote:

Read my post again. billy It's not an inclusive flag unless you're catholic or protestant. Ireland's flag shouldn't just represent two branches of christianity (or any religion IMO). I was baptised catholic but have no affinity with organised religion of any sort now that I've had time tothink about it. There are plenty like me and plenty more Muslims, Hindus, Jews and whatever else who aren't represented by our flag.

Actually it is green for Nationalist and orange for the Unionist community
You do not need to be any particular religion to be nationalist or unionist

I'm neither catholic nor protestant and I have no problem with the Flag I appreciate what it represents something we should aspire to both communities living in peace on this island

I see no reason to change a flag that represents both major traditions on this island

rsynnott

cal29 wrote:

Actually it is green for Nationalist and orange for the Unionist community
You do not need to be any particular religion to be nationalist or unionist

What about those of us who are neither?

cal29

rsynnott wrote:

What about those of us who are neither?

well you can have the white bit

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

Actually it is green for Nationalist and orange for the Unionist community
You do not need to be any particular religion to be nationalist or unionist

I'm neither catholic nor protestant and I have no problem with the Flag I appreciate what it represents something we should aspire to both communities living in peace on this island

I see no reason to change a flag that represents both major traditions on this island

Well, I'm assuming you're just guessing that because here it is from Wiki ;

The tricolour, with its three equal vertical bands of green (hoist side), white and orange, was first flown from the Wolfe Tone Club, on The Mall in Waterford City, on the 7th of March, 1848 by Thomas Francis Meagher. It was first used by Irish nationalists in 1848 during the Young Irelanders' rebellion, though the colours on the original flag were in reverse order to the modern version. Inspired by the French tricolour and the Newfoundland tricolour, it was designed to represent the Catholic majority (represented by green) and the Protestant minority (represented by orange due to William of Orange) living together in peace (symbolised by the white band). Contrary to myth, the tricolour was not the actual flag of the Easter Rising, although it had been flown from the GPO; that flag was in fact a green flag with a harp and the words Irish Republic. However the tricolour became the de facto flag of the extra-legal Irish Republic declared in 1919 and was later adopted by the Irish Free State.

The old flag of Ireland which featured the symbols of the four provinces in each corner would be ok too IMO.

President4Life

murphaph wrote:

Interesting post.

Well the UK wouldn't cease to exist. It'd just be a UK without NI. Their flag and royal coat of arms would have to be changed to reflect the new situation. Our flag should be changed. It's not inclusive of anyone who doesn't consider themselves catholic or protestant! Hardly the image of inclusive, diverse Ireland. Our constitution has been purged of church involvement already, thank God .

No our flag should not be changed. It could alternatively be seen as representing peace between the Nationalist and Unionist communities, including the former-Unionists when partition ends. Remember that William of Orange was funded by the Pope who feared Louis XIV becoming too powerful.

Our parliament, now that would best stay in Dublin as the largest city. The whole system of representation with 3 or 4 waster TDs representing areas the size of postage stamps should go. Far too many TDs in Ireland, the last thing we need is more politicians but we all know that. I'd be in favour of regional and metropolitan assemblies with local tax raising powers. Maybe then Dublin and the other cities would get their fair share of infrastructure and those who choose to live in one-off housing in the back of beyond would have to pay a premium for all the extra roads maintenance they cause etc.

The whole system of county councils corresponding exactly to old county boundaries needs to be looked at. We all know greater Dublin and Limerick, Waterford etc. extend into areas which their city councils have no planning control over. This leads to a chaotic mess of in-fighting councillors.

Don't our local authorities already have the power to set business-rates? I am opposed to any large increase in their power to raise taxes. The last thing our economy needs at a time when investment is flooding to Eastern Europe and China is local-authorities with the power to impose more cost-burdens on business.

I agree though that maybe we should look at redrawing local council boundaries though. It makes no sense for Leitrim, with a population of just 25,000, having a separate county-council. In Co.Dublin itself there are separate county councils e.g. Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal etc. , so the rest of the country should be re-organised along the same pattern. Otherwise we're just wasting money on extra politicians. Leitrim should be merged with either Sligo or Roscommon for local-government purposes.

cal29

murphaph wrote:

Well, I'm assuming you're just guessing that because here it is from Wiki ;


The old flag of Ireland which featured the symbols of the four provinces in each corner would be ok too IMO.

Catholic and Protestant are just lazy ways of distinguishing between Nationalists and Unionists as i said you do not have to be a Catholic to be a Nationalist nor do you have to be a Protestant to be a Unionist the divisions on this Island are nothing to do with religous belief

In actual fact the constitution of this country makes no reference to the symbolism of the flag one way or the other so it can mean what you want it to mean to you and what i want it to mean to me . It is just the National flag
it offends no one unless you go out of your way to be offended.

BTW I would have no objection to the flag you suggested either but i like the tricolour and dont really see any need to change but if you can convince the rest of the country I will go along with it

How about the Starry Plough either the original or the more contemporary version

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

Catholic and Protestant are just lazy ways of distinguishing between Nationalists and Unionists as i said you do not have to be a Catholic to be a Nationalist nor do you have to be a Protestant to be a Unionist the divisions on this Island are nothing to do with religous belief

I provided supporting evidence to the effect that the flag's colours represent catholicism and protestantism and the desired peace between them. You choose to ignore it and insist it represents nationalism and unionism. That's your choice but you'll have to provide some supporting evidence to get me to move on that. In any case, what about those of us who care not about nationalism or unionism and have moved on from such things!

cal29 wrote:

In actual fact the constitution of this country makes no reference to the symbolism of the flag one way or the other so it can mean what you want it to mean to you and what i want it to mean to me . It is just the National flag

Just because the constitution makes no referene to it is irrelevant. The constitution is ammendable, so if the constitution once said their was a meaning behind the colours and this reference was removed by ammendment, that wouldn't make the flag suddenly 'ok' if you were previously put out by it. The constition never made reference to the flag, but that's irrelevant because as I have provided supporting eveidence to show, the flag was indeed designed to represent just 2 branches of the same religion and peace between them. I don't feel this flag includes me. as I couldn't give a toss about religion, if anything having a dislike for it.

cal29 wrote:

it offends no one unless you go out of your way to be offended.

Says the bloke who isn't offended by it!

cal29 wrote:

How about the Starry Plough either the original or the more contemporary version

Eh, what? That's got serious republican overtones. From here;

In 1913 police attacked striking workers who were demonstrating in Dublin, killing two. Trade union leaders decided to establish a para-military organisation - the 'Irish Citizen Army' - to protect the workers. Although the ICA was initially armed only with batons it soon acquired firearms and munitions. The Starry Plough was adopted as the army's flag in 1914: the plough and the stars symbolising the present and the future of the working class respectively. The ICA participated in the 1916 rising at which time the British army captured the flag. It was returned to Ireland in 1966 and is now preserved in the National Museum of Ireland.

It's also taken as the flag of the trades union movement!

KieranusTyranus

Dublin should not remain capital. It gets too much of the infastructure and development. The capital should be moved or else decentralization should go ahead.

murphaph

KieranusTyranus wrote:

Dublin should not remain capital. It gets too much of the infastructure and development. The capital should be moved or else decentralization should go ahead.

Wrong. The Eastern region' taxpayers heavily subsidise the region where you're from actually.

linux

Quite a good topic and it is about time we began taking this a little more seriously as it is inevitable. In relation to constiutional changes I don't think the constitution will ever be re-written per say, there maybe constituional changes here and there as we have seen in the past like articles 2 & 3 etc. and any such changes would go to a referendum.
The Flag changing is a petty claim and would cause more problems than its worth and I would see many political parties making this a referedum issue also,a bit of a watse of taxpayers money but if there were sufficient numbers of people lobbying for it to be changed then a eferendum might happen.
The Dail would remain in Dublin as it is the Capital but I would agree with a more decentralised approach to national politics.

zuma

linux wrote:

Quite a good topic and it is about time we began taking this a little more seriously as it is inevitable. In relation to constiutional changes I don't think the constitution will ever be re-written per say, there maybe constituional changes here and there as we have seen in the past like articles 2 & 3 etc. and any such changes would go to a referendum.
The Flag changing is a petty claim and would cause more problems than its worth and I would see many political parties making this a referedum issue also,a bit of a watse of taxpayers money but if there were sufficient numbers of people lobbying for it to be changed then a eferendum might happen.
The Dail would remain in Dublin as it is the Capital but I would agree with a more decentralised approach to national politics.

Think again!

A united Ireland certainly wont occur in my lifetime(I'm in my early 20's) and thats for sure!

It will take a generation or two of calm where that lot up North can live with themselves first ever before a vote is taken on a united Ireland.

Even then why would they vote to give up their VERY GENEROUS subsidies from the British government that Ireland cant hope to match (they receive £8 for evey £1 they contribute in Tax's!!).

cal29

murphaph wrote:

I provided supporting evidence to the effect that the flag's colours represent catholicism and protestantism and the desired peace between them. You choose to ignore it and insist it represents nationalism and unionism. That's your choice but you'll have to provide some supporting evidence to get me to move on that. In any case, what about those of us who care not about nationalism or unionism and have moved on from such things!!

You did not provide supporting evidence you provided a link from wiki. Now as i have already said using religion to identify the differences in Ireland between Nationalism and Unionism is common and it is lazy the conflict in ireland has nothing to do with religion

But here is a link for you http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/Flag_of_Ireland

The Irish tricolour with its three equal vertical bands of Green (hoist side), White and Orange. It was first used by Irish nationalists in 1848 during the 'Young Ireland' rebellion. It was designed to represent the nationalist, (green) and unionist (orange) populations on the island of Ireland, living together in peace, peace symbolised by white

You will notice that it is almost exactly the same text as the reference you supplied except the words Catholic and protestant have been changed to Nationalist and Unionist

Well your not a Nationalist or a Unionist do you have an opinion as too wether Ireland should be part of a Union with the UK or be an Independent Sovereign State

murphaph wrote:

Just because the constitution makes no referene to it is irrelevant. The constitution is ammendable, so if the constitution once said their was a meaning behind the colours and this reference was removed by ammendment, that wouldn't make the flag suddenly 'ok' if you were previously put out by it. The constition never made reference to the flag, but that's irrelevant because as I have provided supporting eveidence to show, the flag was indeed designed to represent just 2 branches of the same religion and peace between them. I don't feel this flag includes me. as I couldn't give a toss about religion, if anything having a dislike for it.!

It never made a reference to the symbolism of the colours so it has not been amended so yes your point is irrelevant

I have now provided you with a link that says the symbolism is Nationalism and Unionism religion does not come into it at all good bad or indifferent

murphaph wrote:

Says the bloke who isn't offended by it!!

Now that I have clarified for you that the tricolour does not have any religous undertones except for people too lazy to explain the true nature of the divide on this Island are you still offended by it

murphaph wrote:

Eh, what? That's got serious republican overtones. From here;

It's also taken as the flag of the trades union movement!

Perhaps you should look into the meaning of republicanism it is not just about SF or the IRA

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

You did not provide supporting evidence you provided a link from wiki. Now as i have already said using religion to identify the differences in Ireland between Nationalism and Unionism is common and it is lazy the conflict in ireland has nothing to do with religion

But here is a link for you http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/Flag_of_Ireland

You will notice that it is almost exactly the same text as the reference you supplied except the words Catholic and protestant have been changed to Nationalist and Unionist

So my Wikipedia link says one thing, yours says another but claiming that religion has no part in the conflict on this island is ludicrous, perhaps naive in the extreme.

cal29 wrote:

Well your not a Nationalist or a Unionist do you have an opinion as too [sic] wether [sic] Ireland should be part of a Union with the UK or be an Independent Sovereign State

I'm happy for Ireland to remain a sovereign state, though what that has to do with this debate I have no idea.

cal29 wrote:

I have now provided you with a link that says the symbolism is Nationalism and Unionism religion does not come into it at all good bad or indifferent

Like said, your link says one thing. The Wikipedia link I provided says something else. Wikipedia is freely editable so off you go.

cal29 wrote:

Now that I have clarified for you that the tricolour does not have any religous undertones except for people too lazy to explain the true nature of the divide on this Island are you still offended by it

You've provided a link which is in disagreement with the Wikipedia link I provided so you've clarified nothing.

cal29 wrote:

Perhaps you should look into the meaning of republicanism it is not just about SF or the IRA

But the starry plough is heavily associated with Irish Republicanism (citizen army for God's sake!)-hardly conducive to the inclusivity of northern unionists in a hypothetical united Ireland!

cal29

murphaph wrote:

So my Wikipedia link says one thing, yours says another but claiming that religion has no part in the conflict on this island is ludicrous, perhaps naive in the extreme. !

What you think the IRA were fighting to prove Mary was a Virgin or that the Pope is infallible ?

Religion is the main way of identifying the opposing groups but the dispute is not about religion. It would make no difference if the Unionists were largely Muslims or jews or Atheist.

murphaph wrote:

I'm happy for Ireland to remain a sovereign state, though what that has to do with this debate I have no idea.!

Then you are not a Unionist are you welcome to the green side of the flag

murphaph wrote:

Like said, your link says one thing. The Wikipedia link I provided says something else. Wikipedia is freely editable so off you go.!

Previously you seemed to believe that the wiki link was definitive proof

murphaph wrote:

You've provided a link which is in disagreement with the Wikipedia link I provided so you've clarified nothing.!

murphaph wrote:

But the starry plough is heavily associated with Irish Republicanism (citizen army for God's sake!)-hardly conducive to the inclusivity of northern unionists in a hypothetical united Ireland!

On the contrary the ICA was about the unity of the working class Catholic protestant and dissenter. As is the trade Union movement in Ireland which has managed to stay out of the conflict and represent all of its members North and South Unionist and Nationalist

DublinWriter

cal29 wrote:

I see no reason to change a flag that represents both major traditions on this island

I do. Yes, the orange bit is supposed to represent the Unionist tradition.

However, what is the definition of a Unionist? At a simple level it means one who believes in the 1801 Act of Union which abolished the Irish Parliment in College Green and renamed Ireland 'West Britain'.

...or to put it more simply, a Unionist is one who believes in the union with Britain.

So therefore how could the flag of another country (i.e. tricolour) possibly represent you?

I think the Orange Order lodges in Donegal/Sligo hold the key in terms of how their brethern in the 6 counties could ever possibly live in a 32-county ROI.

zuma

DublinWriter wrote:

I do. Yes, the orange bit is supposed to represent the Unionist tradition.

However, what is the definition of a Unionist? At a simple level it means one who believes in the 1801 Act of Union which abolished the Irish Parliment in College Green and renamed Ireland 'West Britain'.

...or to put it more simply, a Unionist is one who believes in the union with Britain.

So therefore how could the flag of another country (i.e. tricolour) possibly represent you?

I think the Orange Order lodges in Donegal/Sligo hold the key in terms of how their brethern in the 6 counties could ever possibly live in a 32-county ROI.

I knew there were orange lodges in Donegal...but some in Sligo as well???

From what I remember the marches in Donegal are peacefull affairs.
Do they carry the Union flag as the Orange Men in the UK do as well???

DublinWriter

zuma wrote:

I knew there were orange lodges in Donegal...but some in Sligo as well???

Yes, and one in Cavan too I think.

zuma wrote:

From what I remember the marches in Donegal are peacefull affairs. Do they carry the Union flag as the Orange Men in the UK do as well???

Orange orders on the whole don't really parade around with the Union Jack, just the flag of King Billy and the banners of their respective chapters.

zuma

DublinWriter wrote:

Yes, and one in Cavan too I think.

Any in Monaghan?

Orange orders on the whole don't really parade around with the Union Jack, just the flag of King Billy and the banners of their respective chapters.

As long as they dont parade with the Union flag and sing racist/insulting songs aimed mostly at Catholics then I have absolutely no problem with the Orange Order marching in Ireland.
Still, after watching them riot in the UK, I probable wouldnt want to watch one.

jubbly

I think this thread i really pushing the boat out. The odds of a united Ireland are minute. The odds of a peacefull united ireland must be a billionth of that

DublinWriter

zuma wrote:

Still, after watching them riot in the UK, I probable wouldnt want to watch one.

There's been a huge rift since Drumcree breaking out in the Orange Order between it's Belfast chapter and all the other chapters.

This has recently come to a head after Robert Salter's (Belfast head of the OO) risable press conference recently where he defended the rioters and blamed the police for starting the riots.

His defence of the OO member brandishing the sword at a PSNI riot-line was pure comedy.

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

What you think the IRA were fighting to prove Mary was a Virgin or that the Pope is infallible ?

Religion is the main way of identifying the opposing groups but the dispute is not about religion. It would make no difference if the Unionists were largely Muslims or jews or Atheist.

I think you'll find that the conflict on this island began a long long time before anyone had even heard of the IRA. Remember the penal laws? Nothing to do with religion eh?

cal29 wrote:

Then you are not a Unionist are you welcome to the green side of the flag

Whatever :rolleyes:

cal29 wrote:

Previously you seemed to believe that the wiki link was definitive proof

I called it "supporting evidence", not "definite proof". If you're anyway familiar with how the justice system works you'll know that one does not equal the other.

cal29 wrote:

On the contrary the ICA was about the unity of the working class Catholic protestant and dissenter. As is the trade Union movement in Ireland which has managed to stay out of the conflict and represent all of its members North and South Unionist and Nationalist

And Wolfe Tone was a protestant-he's still not a protestant hero. You are ignoring the fact that these things are offensive to people.