Hypothetical Situation - A peacefully achieved United Ireland

cal29

murphaph wrote:

I think you'll find that the conflict on this island began a long long time before anyone had even heard of the IRA. Remember the penal laws? Nothing to do with religion eh?

It also began before the reformation and there was any protestant churches
As I have already said the only part religion plays is that generally Unionists are protestant and Nationalists are Catholics.

No I dont remember the penal Laws they had been repealed before I was born I have read about them though.I would suggest that your understanding of the conflict in Ireland is very naive if you believe that it is based on religous belief .

murphaph wrote:

I called it "supporting evidence", not "definite proof". If you're anyway familiar with how the justice system works you'll know that one does not equal the other.

except it is not supporting evidence it is an entry in wikipedia

murphaph wrote:

And Wolfe Tone was a protestant-he's still not a protestant hero. You are ignoring the fact that these things are offensive to people.

Who says the starry plough is offensive what people is it offensive to can you back up the claim that the starry plough is viewed as offensive. SIPTU uses the modern version of the Starry plough it is organised throughout the 32 counties I have never heard of people viewing that flag as offensive

I would view Wolfe Tone as a hero and as a protestant I would guess he is a protestant hero.

cal29

DublinWriter wrote:

So therefore how could the flag of another country (i.e. tricolour) possibly represent you?

.

It is not the flag of another country it is the flag of their country as well

Just as there was and still is people of the Unionist tradition in the 26 counties so will there be in the 32 counties following reunification

Surely you are not suggesting that people of the Unionist (orange tradition) are not part of this country

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

I would suggest that your understanding of the conflict in Ireland is very naive if you believe that it is based on religous belief .

I never said it was based on religion, they're your words that you're now trying to attribute to me. You said religion had no part in the conflict. I disagree and believe it does indeed have a part in the conflict.

cal29 wrote:

except it is not supporting evidence it is an entry in wikipedia

So now it's not even supporting evidence. It's meaningless (presumably because it states the opposite to what you want to hear)!

cal29 wrote:

Who says the starry plough is offensive what people is it offensive to can you back up the claim that the starry plough is viewed as offensive. SIPTU uses the modern version of the Starry plough it is organised throughout the 32 counties I have never heard of people viewing that flag as offensive

Maybe because it has a low key prescence, quite unlike the tricolour. If it were adopted as the national flag things would be different.

cal29 wrote:

I would view Wolfe Tone as a hero and as a protestant I would guess he is a protestant hero.

The point flew right over your head there I see. 'Protestant hero' meaning hero to the protestant people, not a hero of yours who happens to be a protestant! Nevermind.

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

It is not the flag of another country it is the flag of their country as well

Just as there was and still is people of the Unionist tradition in the 26 counties so will there be in the 32 counties following reunification

Surely you are not suggesting that people of the Unionist (orange tradition) are not part of this country

Exactly what part of 'unionist' do you not understand?

cal29

murphaph wrote:

I never said it was based on religion, they're your words that you're now trying to attribute to me. You said religion had no part in the conflict. I disagree and believe it does indeed have a part in the conflict.

And I believe you are wrong and you have not shown any evidence to support your view and ignored points like the fact that the trouble in Ireland predates the protestant churches

murphaph wrote:

So now it's not even supporting evidence. It's meaningless (presumably because it states the opposite to what you want to hear)!

No it is meaningless because it is wrong

murphaph wrote:

Maybe because it has a low key prescence, quite unlike the tricolour. If it were adopted as the national flag things would be different.

I asked for evidence that it is offensive not for you to restate your opinion

murphaph wrote:

The point flew right over your head there I see. 'Protestant hero' meaning hero to the protestant people, not a hero of yours who happens to be a protestant! Nevermind.

No I understood the point you were trying to make but if you word it that way then I am obliged to point out that is wrong so as there is no misunderstanding

cal29

murphaph wrote:

Exactly what part of 'unionist' do you not understand?

I dont expect unionists to give up their beliefs overnight because they are in a united Ireland. Hopefully in time they will change their views in relation to the belief that union with britain is the best thing for Ireland.

I also dont expect unionists to give up their culture and traditions because they are part of a United Ireland. A united Ireland will have to respect those beliefs and the culture and traditions of the unionist community and representing it in the national flag is part of that

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

And I believe you are wrong and you have not shown any evidence to support your view and ignored points like the fact that the trouble in Ireland predates the protestant churches

That's a matter of opinion, in any case, assuming it's true for a moment-you are claiming that the original circumstances dictating the origins of a conflict cannot change over time, that these circumstances are somehow static and not dynamic. his is clearly a load of rubbish. Circumstances change all the time, it's no different during a conflict sutuation.

cal29 wrote:

No it is meaningless because it is wrong

In your humble opinion, I'm sure ;-)

cal29 wrote:

No I understood the point you were trying to make but if you word it that way then I am obliged to point out that is wrong so as there is no misunderstanding

Nothing wrong with the wording-more your poor interpretation of it as a republican that's at fault. The standard failure to understand or even try to understand things from 'the other side's' point of view, that is the hallmark of a fanatic.

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

I dont expect unionists to give up their beliefs overnight because they are in a united Ireland. Hopefully in time they will change their views in relation to the belief that union with britain is the best thing for Ireland.

But you do expect them to 'fall into line' at some stage. How very nice of you.

cal29 wrote:

I also dont expect unionists to give up their culture and traditions because they are part of a United Ireland. A united Ireland will have to respect those beliefs and the culture and traditions of the unionist community and representing it in the national flag is part of that

So if they tell you in a referendum amongst themselves that they feel the tricolour doesn't represent them, you'll abolish it forthwith, or just ignore them and tell them it really does represent them and to shut up whinging?

Cronus333

A united Ireland would be nice in theory, as in it would look good on a map. But learn your history!!! Britain puts far more money into the north than they get out of it. It's a sinkhole!! Remember Germany, they unified and look how much good that has done them.....

cal29

murphaph wrote:

But you do expect them to 'fall into line' at some stage. How very nice of you.

perhaps you might read it again I never said that

murphaph wrote:

So if they tell you in a referendum amongst themselves that they feel the tricolour doesn't represent them, you'll abolish it forthwith, or just ignore them and tell them it really does represent them and to shut up whinging?

I would not suggest that we have a referendum among one section of the population to decide what the national flag should or should not be.

I certainly don't intend to take your word for it that the tri colour will be offensive to Unionists in the context of a peacefully achieved united Ireland

And as I said back about three pages ago if the people of Ireland decide to change the Flag to one that you gave an example of the four provincial flags together I would have no problem with that

Personally I would prefer to keep the Tri colour.

cal29

murphaph wrote:

That's a matter of opinion, in any case, assuming it's true for a moment-you are claiming that the original circumstances dictating the origins of a conflict cannot change over time, that these circumstances are somehow static and not dynamic. his is clearly a load of rubbish. Circumstances change all the time, it's no different during a conflict sutuation.
.

The circumstances dictating the conflict have not changed it was is and always has been the foreign military ocuppation of this Island

The fact that the British used plantations of protestants is irrelelvant as much as if the planters had been jews or hindus or black or asian the problem is not their religion

murphaph wrote:

In your humble opinion, I'm sure ;-).

yes

murphaph wrote:

Nothing wrong with the wording-more your poor interpretation of it as a republican that's at fault. The standard failure to understand or even try to understand things from 'the other side's' point of view, that is the hallmark of a fanatic.

I am not a fanatic about anything you said that wolfe tone was not a protestant hero when he clearly is he may not be a hero of the majority of protestants in Ireland but that is a different matter

Maskhadov

Almost half of us would reject united Ireland: poll
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JEROME REILLY

AS the IRA prepares to complete decommissioning of its arsenal, possibly by the middle of this week, a Sunday Independent poll has found that 45 per cent of the Irish electorate would not vote for a united Ireland.

According to the poll, 55 per cent of the respondents would, given recent developments in the peace process, be open to a united Ireland.

Most cited patriotism, family ties to the North, or a belief that most of the divisive issues have now been settled, for reasons to favour unification.

But as rioting continued in Belfast on Friday night and tensions remained high, many voters in the South are less than enthusiastic about a 32-county Republic.

Of the 55 per cent who said they would vote for a united Ireland, one out of every two said they would not be prepared to pay for the costs of reuniting the island through an unconditional tax hike.

Other respondents in favour of a united Ireland were wary of unspecified increases in taxation without other tangible economic benefits, over and above a united Ireland.

For 45 per cent of respondents a united Ireland held no interest. Many described the concept as out of date and that the Republic's focus should be on a European rather than a narrow nationalistic level. Others said that pursuing a 32-county republic would be regressive not progressive.

Recent criminal activity, including the murder of Robert McCartney and the continuing intimidation of his family and friends, also worried many respondents.

"Really, the paramilitaries have been proven to be criminals. I would not want to invite that lawlessness and level of organisation to the South," one female respondent said.

Another female voter said: "The identity of the South is not linked to the North anymore. We are about economic growth, house prices and Europe. The north is stigmatized by violence and hate."

Yesterday it was reported that two potential overseas investors had postponed trips to Belfast because of the recent loyalist riots.

The disclosure came as the tourist industry warned of widespread cancellations in hotels. Conference organisers have also expressed concern about going to the North.

Meanwhile, a north Belfast man who allegedly threw a pipe bomb and shot at security forces during rioting last Saturday has been remanded in custody.

Belfast Magistrates Court heard that John Main, 35, of Highfield Drive, was allegedly recorded on video throwing a bomb at police on West Circular Road.

It is claimed he was seen coming from a house to shoot at police and soldiers. He denies charges of attempting to murder security force members, riotous assembly and having a bomb and gun.

A detective sergeant told the court that the evidence against the man was "primarily video evidence".

I think the country has moved on from nationalistic views... even if the north wanted to join, would we let them ?

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

perhaps you might read it again I never said that

It was clearly implied.

cal29 wrote:

I would not suggest that we have a referendum among one section of the population to decide what the national flag should or should not be.

Ok, so you would not poll the unionists to see if something offended them, you'd poll the entire country to gauge how the unionists felt about something. Good one.

cal29 wrote:

I certainly don't intend to take your word for it that the tri colour will be offensive to Unionists in the context of a peacefully achieved united Ireland

They burn it regularly enough for me to feel they are actively put out by it.

cal29

murphaph wrote:

It was clearly implied.

No i hope they will except the situation they are in and that in time they will come to see that Nationalists have no intention off returning the mistreatment that unionist inflicted on Nationalists to them. I also hope that they will come to accept the state as the former Unionist community in the 26 counties has

murphaph wrote:

Ok, so you would not poll the unionists to see if something offended them, you'd poll the entire country to gauge how the unionists felt about something. Good one.

No I would not give Unionists a veto over what the National flag should be it would be completely undemocratic to poll one community and give them a veto

murphaph wrote:

They burn it regularly enough for me to feel they are actively put out by it.

They are put out by what they believe it represents to them now in the context of a peacefully achieved United Ireland I believe the context would be different

cal29

Maskhadov wrote:

I think the country has moved on from nationalistic views... even if the north wanted to join, would we let them ?

I take all Independent news and media polls with a large pinch of salt they are usually slanted to suit the editorial views of those papers

Mighty_Mouse

Maybe then Dublin and the other cities would get their fair share of infrastructure and those who choose to live in one-off housing in the back of beyond would have to pay a premium for all the extra roads maintenance they cause etc.

I know this is unrelated but; can I just say!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

So rural ireland should be srapped to let Dublin mutant spread of bungalows wipe out the rest of Leinster!!!

Rural ireland where people generally have a much lower income should pay higher tax for infrastructure projects. are ya mental !!!

Hagar

We got to 46 relevent posts before someone decided to post off topic. I was going well upto then. Let's all just let on we didn't hear him and go on with what seems to be a decent enough debate.

rsynnott

cal29 wrote:

No i hope they will except the situation they are in and that in time they will come to see that Nationalists have no intention off returning the mistreatment that unionist inflicted on Nationalists to them.

Are you sure that's really the case, though?