Ireland v France + scores

Jivin Turkey

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Remember Jason Byrne in Poland? What did he get? 60 seconds or so?

Not exactly "blooding" I realise but insulting nonetheless.

I know, its completely idiotic.

Could you even work up a bead sweat in 60 seconds?

jubbly

i dont think mac geady is in the best of form. i think even Martin O Neill was slow with the player I think he has suffered a bit of a dip in form. eirebhoy ??

redspider

A poor result for Ireland last night. We played ok at times, the French with their 3 returned "exiles" are a much better team. The game had a good tempo from the start, not all-out attack by either team but probing and quick enough. I wasn't happy with our first 11, although Kerr's hands may have been tied in some respects.

O'Brien at his best is better than Dunne. Finnan at his best is better than Carr. And Andy Reid did reasonable on the right but if we would have had a better defending midfielder that goal may not have been scored.

The goal was a classic one, nearly unstoppable, but not quite. If Dunne would have put Henry under more pressure, or if there would have been a leg in from a midfielder, he wouldnt have had time to settle for that shot. Allowing a player like Henry to shoot unchallenged from 22 yards is asking for trouble. Given got a finger tip to it, but it was not enough. Ireland's defence was picked.

During the match we did have chances, and so had they. If we would have scored first, then there was a good chance that they would have come back at us and created a few good chances. But when their goal went in, the fight in Ireland went. Bringing on Doherty was a mistake by Kerr. Brian has a huge belief in him, I dont know why. Probability will tell you that Doherty was not going to create anything. Bringing on Harte was necessary as Kilbane was just knackered at that point.

So, overall maybe a few errors, but nothing major and it took a bit of brilliance from Henry to break the deadlock. Ireland though were dissapointing when they wnet 0-1 down and didnt get close to a clear chance at goal in the last 15 mins.

We're still not out though. If we win the next 2 we should be 2nd
and reach the quaifiers.

redspider

wheres me jumpa

a dissappointing night. really thought we could get a win. and for much of the game i thought we had a better chance of winning than the french who imo were very poor. once they got the goal they defending well. however the rest of their play was poor.

henry up front on his own really doesnt work. yes i know it must have worked last night but for the most part when zidane got on the ball he only had henry to aim for. another forward up there and they could have destroyed us.

from irish point of view...i thought we played well. lacked the penetration up front. robbie keane, duff and kilbane were not at their best. they all tried but just couldnt get going. kilbane in particular was a huge dissappointment. without any real attacking force in midfield we never looked like scoring.

its not over yet though. still feel we can get second. but no doubting how tough it will be.

Kingp35

jubbly wrote:

Do you think its kerrs fault or do you think its the irish mentality that is the problem ?

I think its a bit of both. Its fairly well known by everybody at this point that Brian Kerr is a defensive minded manager. It was quite clear to me watching the game last night that Kerr told the team to drop off when France had the ball and to pack the centre of the pitch. This tactic is fine in a defensive sense if your playing an away match but what it does is open up a huge gap between our midfield and forward line making it extremely difficult for Keane and Morrison to do anything. He is too defensive minded and he sets his teams up with that mentality. Anybody who cant see that really doesnt know their footballing tactics. Then again though I can understand that if you go a goal up its a psychological thing that you find yourself going further and further back as you dont need to core you just need to not concede. I understand this but its the basic setup of the team at the start of games that I have the problem with. Kerr just instills a very cautious attitude in his teams and when you play a team like France its asking for trouble. We should have pressed them further up the pitch and go at them from the start. We really didnt do this at all and the French just looked too comfortable passing the ball around. That is why Kerr annoys because the defensive minded tactic just doesnt work for us and its beyond me why he hasnt realised this yet.

eirebhoy wrote:

Kerr wouldn't have won 2 European titles if he was tactically inept. What level he won it at doesn't matter. He still has to change tactics mid-game to get the best out of the team.

I agree with you eirebhoy but can you answer me this. Why has he become tactically inept since taking over the senior team? He has made some shocking tactical errors which he didnt do with the underage teams. I dont agree that the level doesnt matter. There is not much of a difference ill give you that but when your dealing with better players who carry out tactics etc in a better way than the younger teams you need to make sure your tactics are absolutely spot on or you willbe punished.

ButcherOfNog

France are still one of the best teams in the world on their day. We did as much as we could i feel up till they scored. Bringing on a center back to play up front ... yeah, thats a great plan. I know we'd our best players on the pitch, but anything would have been better than the Doc, the thought of replacing Kilbane with Elliot for instance, better than bringing on a big eejit up front. Hell even bring on Doherty as a defender and move Dunne up front. Robbie Keane has got a few slags on here, what do you expect a forward to do with zero service? He did at least create a good chance for morrison and have one of our few shots on target. Duff was marked out of it for most of the game, we were playing against France remember, not the Faroe Islands. For the most part the teams canceled each other out, a moment of brilliance from Henry won the game for France.

Kerr isn't the brightest manager, hes just a youth/amature manager, so what can you expect? Never wanted him appointed, hes not up to the job. If we don't qualify for this world cup he should go, that'll be two failed qualifying tournaments (i don't blame McCarthy for the last Euro one, Kerr had plenty of time to make amends for the start but failed). This group was lost in the earlier games that we shoulda won but lost, esp the Israel at home game which was completely the fault of Kerr.

redspider

The way people react to football never ceases to amaze me. Football is a game about probabilities, what if's, etc. It is not such as an exact science as say running the 100m, although all sports have their variances.

What if for example, Andy Reid's free kick would have gone in off the post .... (yes, 75 mins of defending would not gave been pretty, but possible) ... or what if Robbie would have connected properly with his shot .... or what if Henry/Zidane did not scramble the ball past Cunningham (to give the chance to Henry) ... or what if Henry's shot would have been out by 3 inches (Given would have saved it, and its not as if Henry always scores from these chances - stats show in fact that he is low in percentage terms, he just tries so many that some come off, like this one) ...
and what if ...
and what if ...
etc.

But you get my point.

The reality was that it was a very close game last night. One goal separated the sides at the end. Both teams created chances, probably equally and Ireland probably more so. France managed to get a goal, but we could have too. It was a tight game. It was not as if we were under the cosh for the full game, created little and France deserved the win. Even Henry admits that France were undeserving of the full 3 pts, the way the Irish battled.

So, given such a performance, why all the reaction to the match? As in Kerr is no good, etc, etc? Kerr does a reasonable job with the players that he has, sure he is not a perfect manager, and he didnt do great at responding to the goal tactically imo, or in other matches. But we do have limitations in our team, and we met a French team that performed well on the night.

Its a funny old game, and the spin of a ball can turn a team from hero's to zero's. Lets give our players and manager and staff a break. Ok, we lost 0-1 at home to France in a tight game. But the Irish team played well, and gave great effort, and played to the upmost of their capability. Thats all we can ask. And, we still have a good chance of qualifying under our own steam.

Here is my hypothesis:

If we cant beat Cyprus away and CH at home, we dont deserve to go to the world cup anyway!

Keep the heads up lads, look to the next two games. If its not 6 points, then lets think about change.

redspider

jubbly

I was listening to Giles on offtheball and he was on about ireland dropping off when France had the ball instead of pressing them up the pitch. We play our best football when we press opposition. I dont know what kerr thinks but I wish he would change it.

Giles was also saying that he didnt think young players should start at international level. Its the clubs that bring them through, once they get regular first team football then they can take the move up to international level. A bad game for them when they are young can destroy their confidence for ages. I think he has a point, there is little point bringing on the likes of Mac Geady etc.. maybe Elliott but he hasnt nailed down a spot with sunderland and isnt scoring regularly.

The manager has to weight it all up.

When this group was picked I just hoped for second to be truthful. I never imagined we could get first. If someone said we had cyprus away and switzerland at home for the play off spot I would have taken it so I cant really complain now.

The playoffs are a lottery and anything can happen so better leave it for another day.

I just hope Ireland go out all guns firing against Cyprus and grap the 3 points.

redspider

jubbly wrote:

I was listening to Giles on offtheball and he was on about ireland dropping off when France had the ball instead of pressing them up the pitch. I dont know what kerr thinks but I wish he would change it. Giles was also saying that he didnt think young players should start at international level. ... there is little point bringing on the likes of Mac Geady etc.. When this group was picked I just hoped for second to be truthful.

I always have an open ear for what Giles says. He is right that Ireland should have pressed them up the pitch. But, this they DID, with Robbie, Morrison, Reid and Duff being tireless in harrassing the French, and Kilbane and Roy playing large roles as well, getting stuck in, intecepting, etc. I disagree with Johnny's observation that we dropped off them. We did on one blatant occasion and that was Dunne when facing 5 yards away from Henry who was just 22-yards out when he struck that goal! There could have been other occasions in the match too, but my overall impression was that we harried them, closed them down and up the pitch.

In terms of young players, ideally they'd all be playing regular first team football for clubs and doing well. We dont have that luxury. The better Irish players could be in the reserves in a top club, or even lower down the pecking order than that. I think new players can be blooded in friendlies, but give them a good 30 mins, eg: Elliot. That may help them in their club career too as it did with Aldridge and Houghton.

In terms of our chance of finishing 2nd. Yes, that was my target as well. However, the path to getting 2nd may have been slightly easier depending on the results between us and Israel and CH and Israel. Maybe a good win against CY and a draw against CH would have been enough, when the group was drawn. Now, its a must-win game (the CH one) and we arent usually good at those. But it is doable. The CY game was always a must-win game, so there should be no extra pressure to win that one at all.

So, lets look forward. Lets beat Cyprus, lets prepare for the CH game and win it. I think that Kerr should go all out in the last game and start the game at max tempo.

roll on October ...

redspider

Kingp35

Redspider if you really looked closely at the tactics the Irish team played on Wednesday you will see that it was quite obviuos that Brian told the Irsh team to go out and play with a cautious attitude and not to go and attack the French, the tactics were quite obviously for the Irish to drop off the French when they had the ball and for us to pack the centre of the field as the French had no wingers so everything would go through the middle. You can also see that when the french had the ball our winger who was further away from the action, be ir Reid or Duff would also tuck into the centre of the pitch and to hold off the French players. I don’t like this tactic for a number of reasons. It works fine in a defensive point of view in that it restricts what the French can do and it doesn’t allow them to utilise the pace of Henry. However it is a hugely negative tactic for us to play. Basically it gives the French allot of time on the ball to pass it around and get a feel into the game. The longer they have the ball the easier it is for their players to find space away from their man to pick up the ball and this is a continuous process. When we win the ball back off them we are always very deep meaning that there is a huge distance between our midfield players and our forward players. This is where the tactic doesn’t work. Basically it isolates Keane and Morrison up the pitch not giving them any chance to get into the game. Morrison did his best by trying to put himself about when the ball got up there, Robbie Keane was simply awful for the whole game and possibly his worst game in an Irish shirt. This is what I mean when I say Kerr is tactically inept. This tactic just wasn’t going to work.

I have never seen an Irish game before like this one where our big players had such poor games. Robbie Keane, Kevin Kilbane and Damien Duff were simply woeful for the entire game. None of them did anything all night and it really hurt us. We were lucky that the French team also had a poor game on the night. In fact I have to say bar Roy Keane and Zidane the standard of football on Wednesday was very low from both sides.

It annoys me that Kerr is such a defensive minded coach it really does. The way to play that French team is to press them up the pitch. I really don’t know where you came to the conclusion that we did do this redspider. We didn’t not at all. Take Duff for example. When the full back Sagnol has the ball Duff should be pushing on up close to him to pressurise him. Problem is he didn’t he just stood off him. This allowed Sagnol time on the ball to pick out a pass and time for the French players, especially Zidane, to make a little run and pick up the ball. Its basic stuff really but its something that should have been done. We were left playing balls up the line because our full backs were closed down, the french could play the ball inside to their midfielders as they had time to do so because we stood off. We basically formed a line off players about 10/15 yards outside our box whenever they had the ball. This kind of dropping off is just too defensive for an Irish team to play.

I agree with people though at the start of the group I would have gladly accepted second place but having seen this French team play I know they are not particularily good so I cant help but feel disappointed with the position we are in. Good news though that our fate is still in our own hands and if we win our last two games we grab second spot. I hope that Kerr goes at the Swiss from the start as well but I really don’t think he will purely because he is not that type of manager. Expect it to be cagey and cautious just like against the French. We still gotta beat Cyprus first though so lets not get ahead of ourselves

Necronomicon

redspider wrote:

So, lets look forward. Lets beat Cyprus, lets prepare for the CH game and win it. I think that Kerr should go all out in the last game and start the game at max tempo.

roll on October ...

redspider

Agreed. Close game, we were very unlucky, but it has been two days so let's just start looking forward to the next one all over again.

Bateman

Kingp35 wrote:

I agree with people though at the start of the group I would have gladly accepted second place but having seen this French team play I know they are not particularily good

Problem is that 3 years ago, France lost to Senegal, they went out of thw World Cup without scoring, and went out of the European Championships in a disappointing fashion last summer. We knew how poor they were.

redspider

Kingp35 wrote:

Redspider if you really looked closely at the tactics the Irish team played on Wednesday you will see that it was quite obviuos that Brian told the Irsh team to go out and play with a cautious attitude and not to go and attack the French, the tactics were quite obviously for the Irish to drop off the French when they had the ball and for us to pack the centre of the field as the French had no wingers so everything would go through the middle. When we win the ball back off them we are always very deep meaning that there is a huge distance between our midfield players and our forward players. This is where the tactic doesn’t work. Basically it isolates Keane and Morrison up the pitch not giving them any chance to get into the game.
I have never seen an Irish game before like this one where our big players had such poor games. Robbie Keane, Kevin Kilbane and Damien Duff were simply woeful for the entire game.
It annoys me that Kerr is such a defensive minded coach it really does. The way to play that French team is to press them up the pitch. I really don’t know where you came to the conclusion that we did do this redspider. We basically formed a line off players about 10/15 yards outside our box whenever they had the ball. This kind of dropping off is just too defensive for an Irish team to play.

I dont think Kerr was over-cautious. I thought the approach was just about right for most of the match. We created more chances than they did. And we were up the pitch chasing the players, both Duff and Reid, and the two forwards did their bit. They didnt allow the French defenders to settle on the ball and pass the ball around as would have happened with a 4-5-1. Ireland were cautious in the sense that they didnt take stupid risks. A draw was a sufficient result for us.

Keane and Morrison didnt get much in the game, because lets face it, the French defence played very well, with Makelele in front. The French defence was superb. It had nothing to do with a large gap between midfield (defending too deep) and the forwards.

Kerr was cautious in this game, but it was the correct decision. He did play 4-4-2. If he would have played 4-5-1, then I would be the one jumping up and down and saying he was over cautious.

> We basically formed a line off players about 10/15 yards outside our box whenever they had the ball.

No we didnt. We may have done this at one point towards the 2nd part of th 2nd half. But not for the game, and not as a trend. In any event, the goal was scored with 1 French layer facing 3 defenders and a goalie, so not a case of defending too deep. Lack of attacking the ball, lack of concntration by Dunne.

redspider

eirebhoy

I'm still disappointed about Wednesday so only in the mood to browse a few posts breefly. Kingp35 - You really are putting blame on Kerr for no reason at all. Duff rarely plays well against Arsenal. This is because Wenger gets him marked out of the game. The same happened against France. There were 3 players on him all the time and I actually thought he coped very well. We played well overall. We had more possession than them. Its probably the first time in this campaign where France had less possession than the opposition. I also doubt very much a McCarthy/Charlton team would have got more possession than a team like France. We could have played a lot better if Kilbane and Robbie were on form.

I have the match on DVD. I'll watch it some time in the next few days but I certainly don't remember the Irish players dropping off. We hounded them down whenever they had possession.

MrJoeSoap

There was definitely an attack in the first half I remember ranting about because they stood off Zidane. I remember saying something about "best player... world.. close down"

jubbly

there is the old idea that if you press a team up the park then they can drop a ball over the back four and use the strikers speed to punish you. Henry would punish ireland severly if we got caught out. So I dont think that tatic of holding off a little is "negative".

Btw, Aresen Wenger was full of praise of ireland, so was henry and Viera. Arsen said we had a good team and we did very well with the rescources available to us. He also said anything we achieved was through hard work and couldnt be resented.

horseflesh

I get the impression that most people here are confident of reaching the Finals IF we make the play offs.

Why??? I'm not.

jubbly

If Kerr gets us to the play offs then I will be happy with the WCQ campaign. Its a lottery after that so we will have to wait for another 6 weeks to find out who were playing. We can beat anyone over two legs though if it really means going to the world cup.

The biggest thing Im worried about is Ireland not beliving we can beat Cyprus and Switzerland. If we go there with the wrong mentality its going to be a nightmare.

horseflesh

Teams currently in 2nd place in the other European groups (I know this of course doesn't guarantee that they will finish 2nd in their respective groups):

Czech Republic
Turkey
Slovakia
Norway
England
Spain
Croatia


Of those, the only teams I'd be in any way confident of beating over 2 legs are Slovakia and Norway, and even they'd be 50:50.

So I suppose I'm saying I'm not terribly confident if we were to make it to the play offs.

jubbly

remember we face the worst of those teams because the best teams with the most points qualify automatically;)

Vokes

According to the Irish Times today, our defeat to France will also mean we drop in the seedings for Euro 08 qualification.

We'll almost definitely be 4th seeds (down from 2nd seeds in Euro 04 qualifiers) in whichever group we're drawn.

On the bright side though, there's now 2 automatics qualification spots, i.e. no playoffs.

jubbly

French defeat brings seeding slide
Emmet Malone Soccer Correspondent

Soccer

In addition to having seriously dented Irish hopes of qualifying for next summer's World Cup finals, Wednesday's defeat by France at Lansdowne Road means the Republic are virtually certain to drop from second to fourth seeds when the draw is made for the qualifying stages of the next European Championships.

The 50 nations due to compete in the competition will be seeded on the basis of their performances in the group stages of this World Cup campaign and the last European Championships. This is in line with the procedure used in recent championships and the system meant the Irish were amongst the top seeds in the draw for Euro 2004 and the second group of countries for the current campaign with rankings of sixth and 15th respectively.

After finishing third to Switzerland and Russia with 11 points from eight games last time around and amassing 13 to date from a similar number of matches in this group competition, the Irish have slumped to joint 26th alongside Scotland and Hungary in the current seedings list.

With only seven rather than eight groups to be drawn next time around that leaves the Republic facing the prospect of being the fourth-ranked team in the group and an uphill task to take one of the two automatic qualifying places (there will be no play-offs) on offer for the Euro 2008 tournament finals.

Under the system used the number of points gained by each country in the previous two campaigns is divided by the number of games played to provide a score.

Brian Kerr's side have 24 points from 16 games so far but could improve their score from the present 1.5 to 1.66 if they can beat both Cyprus and Switzerland in their remaining two games. If the scores of other nations remained unchanged that would just be enough to steal into 21st place and a third seeding.

Similarly, however, they could yet slip back to 29th position in the rankings if Finland were to win their last two games (they have to play Romania and the Czech Republic) or Israel beat the Faroe Islands and Brian Kerr's side performed poorly in their remaining matches.

The reality, however, is that having slipped behind the likes of Latvia, Bosnia Herzegovina and Slovakia on a ladder that is of considerably more material significance than Fifa's world ranking list, they currently look virtually certain to be fourth seeds.

The draw for the next European Championships will be made on January 27th in Montreux.

There will be one group of eight teams and six groups of seven with the Swiss and Austrians qualifying automatically and the Greeks guaranteed a top seeding by virtue of their status as defending champions.

On the basis of their current positioning, Ireland could end up in a group that included the likes of the Netherlands (currently top of the list), Spain and the Ukraine, who have already qualified for next summer's finals by finishing ahead of Turkey, Greece and Denmark in Group Two.

Before then, of course, the Irish must pick themselves up in the wake of Wednesday's defeat and aim to win their last two games which could, depending on other results, still be enough to yield top spot and a place in Germany next summer.

More likely it would mean second place which brings with it a play-off spot and so Kerr is likely to start having potential opponents watched in next month's final two rounds of group games across Europe.

At present groups one, six and eight, where the Czech Republic, England and Croatia occupy the respective second places, are the most likely to produce the two best runners-up. In all of the other groups the race for a play-off spot remains too tight to call but Spain, Norway, Turkey and Greece are amongst the potential opponents if the Irish can secure second spot.

To get there they will have to win in Cyprus without Roy Keane, Clinton Morrison or Andy Reid, all of whom are suspended, and then beat the Swiss at Lansdowne Road.

The Cypriots have had a disappointing campaign and it is hard to see them upsetting Kerr's side. In the Euro 2004 qualifiers they secured eight points and managed draws at home to Israel and Slovenia but this time around their four points have come from their two encounters with the Faroe Islands.

When Ireland last played on the island, also in a World Cup qualifier back in March 2001, Roy Keane was the central figure in a 4-0 victory with the Manchester United midfielder scoring two of the goals and producing a hugely impressive all-round display. Last year, however, the Corkman was also missing as Kerr's side rather easily beat them 3-0 at Lansdowne Road.

The Swiss, however, will present a far more severe challenge. On a number of occasions, most notably against the Israelis, they have looked a distinctly ordinary side over the past year but then precisely the same could be said of the Irish.

With two wins and one draw to show for their recent meetings with the Republic, however, they will travel to Dublin with a good deal of confidence, particularly if they have just beaten the French in Berne in which case a draw would be enough to send them to Germany as group winners and leave the Irish licking their wounds after what would almost certainly be a fourth-place finish.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/sport/2005/0909/1239378435SP1EMMET.html

yeah that side of things are a bit disapointing alright

scojones

I don't think it has been said on here yet, but France have only conceeded one goal in the qualifiers so far, that tells of how good their defense is.

lili

i have a link about the high light of the match if you want download it (it's free).

http://rapidshare.de/files/4912048/Zidane_-_Republic_of_Ireland_vs_France__WC_2006_Q_.avi.html