Scenario: Police car behind you

tigerbalm

This scenario happened to a friend recently:

Stopped at red traffic light at a very busy blind junction in Dublin. The car behind my friend turns on a siren a blue flashing light -- obviously an unmarked garda car. Because the junction is so busy there is nowhere for the garda to go/overtake. The gardai in the car are also beeping their horn and gesturing strongly at my friend to break the red light and pull into the junction.

Friend was nervous of breaking red light and causing an accident so didn't move. Many cars at the junction (i.e. green light route) were still coming across the junction at ~50km/h and they didn't see the garda car and stop.

At this stage the gardai are looking wild angry and friend is very unsure as to what is the right thing to do. Thankfully, the lights turned green and my friend pulled quickly through the junction and then moved out of the way on the left hand side of the road.

Both my friend and I have a few questions about this scenario and I would appreciate peoples opinions:

a) Is a Garda gesturing to you from behind to get out of his way a correct legal signal to proceed. It doesn't appear to be from the rules of the road.

b) If my friend broke the red light and an oncoming car crashed into her -- would she have been in the wrong for breaking a red light, or in the right for following a Garda instruction?

c) Could my friend have been pulled/prosecuted for not following a lawful order from a Garda ?

Any ideas?

-- tigerbalm

unkel

Good points, tigerbalm. I'd like to get some official / legal answers to those questions too...

What I would have done?

Make way for the car I too would presume to be an unmarked Garda patrol car but do so in a safe way, i.e. not into the path of uncoming traffic but instead onto the curb or what not

Silvera

You cannot be reasonably expected to pull into a busy junction and perhaps cause damage (or a fatality!) in order to let a Garda respond to another (perhaps minor in comparison) emergency.

The Garda in question should have know better than to gesture you to pull into a busy junction.
Another person in your position could have moved and caused a major accident.

IMO, your friend did the right thing.

tigerbalm

unkel wrote:

Make way for the car I too would presume to be an unmarked Garda patrol car but do so in a safe way, i.e. not into the path of uncoming traffic but instead onto the curb or what not

I would tend towards doing the same but it was not possible in this instance because there were two lanes of traffic waiting at the stop light and my friend was on the outside lane. The traffic on the inside/left lane didn't budge either.

BTW> The junction was the Cabra cross junction in Dublin 7.

Corben Dallas

Saw something similar at the junction beside City Hall, T junction left and right beside Da Pinos and Thomas Reids. Unmarked Mondeo with siren and one internal blue flashing light, works his way to front of lights cause ppl move out his way and the two cars at the front stay where they were not moving cause of the red light. The Cop car goes nuts blowin his horn and nobody moving, eventually one pulls out and he goes fyling out still beebing at cars that kept him at teh lights blocked for 2 mins.

---

My take on this is that u should follow the direction of the Guards when its safe to do so, if u see the other cars sussing whats goin on and slowing down, or just putting yur nose out a bit they would prob see the lights/siren goin and stop to let u out.

Same with Ambulances/Fire Engines, sometimes u have to break a red to let them thru(when safe) or when instructed by guards.

I have done the above loads of times.

Guy:Incognito

Theres usually a car length or at least a width between your bumper and the cars crossing you at a junction, so you could pull in front of the car in a lane either side of you, sideways if nessecary.

tigerbalm

I guess my main question is:

If you do edge out and a car clips you -- I wonder how your insurance company would say? It quite possible that the unmarked police car, which technically is not involved in the small accident, could just drive on and you wouldn't have much to go on then.

If it's an ambulance or marked police car, etc., then it's much easier because everybody can see what's going on -- but with unmarked police car's it s a different matter.

I think the situation looks different if you see it from some other drivers perspective:

"You're driving carefully at 35 km/h through a major junction making sure to keep close to your lane because it's busy. You've left a reasonable distance between yourself and the car in front of you. Suddenly, a car slowly pulls into the junction (obviously breaking their red light), and even though they pull in front of you slowly you have to hit the breaks and swerve. The front left of your car hits the front right of the car that pulled in. You then notice a car swerves around the both of you and drive off up the road at a mad pace -- a single blue light flashing from inside the back window.

It's ok, nobody is hurt and the women in the other car looks fine if a little shaken."

Who's fault is this accident? Surely not me, the motorist driving carefully and legally through the junction. What about the women who pulled out in front of me? It's her fault. Or is it? She says a Garda signaled here to do it? But there is no Garda at the junction directing traffic correctly! Etc, etc ...

If it went to the insurance companies and the courts -- I wonder what would happen?

I reckon that the women who broke the light would be held at fault.

jayok

I looked into this before (for some reason) and basically in this country there is no obligation on you to get out of the way of any emergency service, including Gardai, Fire Brigade or Ambulance. The emergency drivers are supposed to obey (save speed) the same rules of the road as the rest of us. It is a courtesy that drivers give way. As such if you break a red light, even with a Garda car stuck to your rear bumper and collide with a car that had the right of way it's your fault. You will be prosecuted as if you ran a red-light and caused damage.

This is harsh I know but is the current law. There are cases that crop up in the papers every so often about Ambulance drivers that crash while on duty and then this affects their private insurance. To the question by insurers "Have you been involved in an accident in the past 5 years?" The have to answer "Yes" and are penalised accordingly (where applicable).

Personally, I would like to think that the emergency services are always responding to an emergency and that if it was me in trouble I would like them to arrive ASAP. So I will always attempt to let the service pass - but not if it endangers any further life or increases risk.

In the Garda Advanced Drivng manual there is a statement along the lines of "its better to arrive late to an emergency than never to arrive at all. When using the (blue) lights for an emergency remember you are there to react to the crisis not cause one". From the comments above I understand the frustration of the Gardai of being stuck behind you and the human reaction, but the whole decision and risk to go or not to go is your responsibility.

LFCFan

They'd probably gotten a great tip for the next race in Hampton and were rushing to get to the bookies. Imagine the frustration of having a great tip in your hand but some spa is in your way at the lights. Grrrrrr........

theShire

Personally, I'd do what i could to move out of their way, as you said, but the way I see is it they can't and shouldn't be telling you to break the law which is, in effect, what you would be doing by crossing that white line! If the Garda in question actually got out of the car and told you to move forward then you should, with him directing you out, and he is responsible for what could happen- how are you supposed to know exaclty what the Garda in question wanted with his flashing lite? was he pulling you over?? see what i mean! Fair enough, you should do your best to avoid blocking emergency services, but, as already said, you shouldn't have to put yourself in a situation which could cause an accident! Just my opinion, and much of it similar to the rest of you

mathie

The other day a car broke down in front of me about 7 cars up and a cop car comes up behind me and pulls into the bus bay that was to my left to have a look to see what was happening. Then they reversed and pulled up just behind me looking very anxious and trying to overtake but couldn't as there was oncoming traffic.

Anyway I'm sitting there at the end of a queue of about 8 cars and I look around to see what the cop wants to do as they've been attempting to pass (the queue of traffic is starting to move) and she just flashes me to move on.

Borzoi

jayok wrote:

This is harsh I know but is the current law. There are cases that crop up in the papers every so often about Ambulance drivers that crash while on duty and then this affects their private insurance. To the question by insurers "Have you been involved in an accident in the past 5 years?" The have to answer "Yes" and are penalised accordingly (where applicable).
.

I think the question is 'have you made a claim in the last 5 years?" Otherwise, my brother's NCB would be non-existant having crashed a DFB Ambulance more than once :rolleyes:

To the OP, the car behind (no matter who they are) cannot see what's in front of you. Use your best judgement, safety being the No1 concern