Bruce Lee

Roper

pma-ire wrote:

Roper! Come to terms with your issues with Lee man!!

Did he abuse you as a child??

No matter how many smiley faces you put after it, child abuse is a powerfully offensive subject to most decent people.


On topic, I don't have a problem with Bruce Lee, I have a problem with people saying that movie stars are good examples as martial artists. For crying out loud look at the fantastic examples who actually compete and fight every week! Look at them, look at the mavericks who have changed MA by proving their ability in a quantifiable environment. Bruce Lee was an actor and a myth.

So he writes some books? So what? His greatest achievement was in making movies that popularised martial arts and got people interested. Most people who are involved in MA don't study his methods or follow his example.

Imagine turning to a Russian Olympic wrestler and showing him the clip above as an example'of innovation. He'd squirt himself laughing. Imagine showing a boxer brought up on Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Roy Jones and saying to them; did you see the speed of that backfist? Laughter ensues, I guarantee.

Millionaire

Lee was a martial artist long before he was a movie star believe me. In fact he was oneof Yip Mans top Wing Chun students in hong kong (william cheung being a training partner) . Lee was a street fighter, he fought man challenges against other king Fu schools, he beat a brit kid who was hong king boxing champion (a boxing blue I think is the posh word for that) in a boxing bout , and lee never had a boxing lesson. and I think he got in ****e wiht cops for batterning some UK navy men who started on the locals.

Do you thin for exmaple US NAVY Seal team would for 6 years have a man (paul vunak who teaches Less methods) train them for 6 years in hand to hand and knife fighting, if it was the work of just a Moive star.
me thinks not!!!

Roper

There are better examples for the aspiring martial artist. I've no doubt he was excellent and his methods were good. But he did little but point out what was obvious to most combat sportsmen and women. I know little of Paul Vunak, in fact I know little of JKD in general. I'm sure he's fantastic and I never questioned the effectiveness of Lee's methods.

The Hong Kong boxing challenge? Okay, but then he may have been more gifted in terms of attributes. Who's to say what the Kid was like, how hard he trained etc. It's an unprovable argument, one of many...

People above are pointing out how fast his hands were in a movie? Get real folks. I can list faster, effective boxers off if you'd like. I think that a reality check is in order here. I really hope there's some trolling going on because... well I just can't believe a movie star, martial artist or not, is being venerated so much in 2005. Have we not come further than this? I'm sure Lee himself would hope so.

People speak of Sugar Ray Robinson in the same way. His outstanding speed, power and craft are almost legendary. But whaddya know? He has a record of doing it repeatedly, in the ring, for real, with people watching him. And he has the added benefit of not having millions of teenage boys playing chinese whisper with his "legendary" fights.

Millionaire

when I talk of lee, I am not for one sec even considering anything to dowith his movies, they are not even in the euqation.

Me, well I did alot of read on JKD. Like back 15 year ago when at uni in red neck canada, only MA available was trad goju ryu (all they did was kata no contact) or sport olympic TKD so I did TKD and Iwent down to montreal for a course in the dojang there, one night looking out the back, I saw these guys in street clothers training in a parking lot, man I though why am I in here in , why am I not out there. so I found out it was JKD and after that I always wanted to do it.

whats been doen in KM in ireland would not be too far off it. but thats another story.

They were the 1st ever to take the BS out of MA. ok more have come along. etc doing similar since.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

People

just say it was me!! i won't cry

Roper wrote:

above are pointing out how fast his hands were in a movie?

I have also seen footage of Lee sparring in many a documentary and his hand speed is just a blur on the screen!!

pma-ire

Get your story straight man!

Roper wrote:

There are better examples for the aspiring martial artist.

Roper wrote:

I've no doubt he was excellent and his methods were good.

Roper wrote:

But he did little but point out what was obvious to most combat sportsmen and women.

Who was doing such stuff then??

Roper wrote:

I never questioned the effectiveness of Lee's methods.

Ahem...

Roper wrote:

I don't have a problem with Bruce Lee, I have a problem with people saying that movie stars are good examples as martial artists. For crying out loud look at the fantastic examples who actually compete and fight every week! Look at them, look at the mavericks who have changed MA by proving their ability in a quantifiable environment. Bruce Lee was an actor and a myth.

If he was a myth to then you don't rate his methods!!

Roper wrote:

Most people who are involved in MA don't study his methods or follow his example.

Muscle mags still do write ups on him and his weight training methods.

I remember laughing to myself when I my instructor told me about this cool technique our Master was doing breaking boards with 1 inch punches. You'd swear it was all new!!

The way your training could be called Lee's method (mixed), and I think that there are a few more guys on here that do some "Functional" training!!

Millionaire

My training concept is called "Deadness" and I train for Deadness, its a new type of theory I made up, maybe PMA I should give meself a 10 dan.

what is it mean...
Deadness...you try to mug or attack man..you effin DEAD!!! ;-)

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

My training concept is called "Deadness" and I train for Deadness, its a new type of theory I made up, maybe PMA I should give meself a 10 dan.

what is it mean...
Deadness...you try to mug or attack man..you effin DEAD!!! ;-)

Interesting theory

columok

PMA,

Who was doing such stuff then??

Ancient Greek Pankration fighters, Boxers, Thai Boxers, Sambo peeps, Judoka, Savate peeps, Wrestlers, Brazilian Vale Tudo Fighters, Pre-Queensbury Rules Boxers, Rednecks etc. etc.

The only reason that anything Bruce Lee says seemed impressive is cause the people he was talking to were/are mired in classical martial arts rubbish.

The fact that Lee didnt fully let go of his Jun Fan background says to me that the man wasnt fully ready to go all the way to backup up his "use what works, discard what doesnt" JKD philosophy.

But Paul since you're such a Bruce Lee fan...

Do you box like boxers? Do you thai box like thai guys? Do you roll like BJJers? Do you wrestle like freestylers?

They're the fundamentals. Bruce Lee recognised some of that though he may not have been willing to go all the way with his realisation. Do all the kata and pressure point stuff if you like but if you're not doing the fundamentals to apply your pressure point strikes...

pma-ire

columok wrote:

PMA,



Ancient Greek Pankration fighters, Boxers, Thai Boxers, Sambo peeps, Judoka, Savate peeps, Wrestlers, Brazilian Vale Tudo Fighters, Pre-Queensbury Rules Boxers, Rednecks etc. etc.

The only reason that anything Bruce Lee says seemed impressive is cause the people he was talking to were/are mired in classical martial arts rubbish.

Who were "mirred"? The Boxers, Wrestlers, Judoka, Freestyle Karate(Kickboxing) champions he trained with?? I don't think so!!

columok wrote:

The fact that Lee didnt fully let go of his Jun Fan background says to me that the man wasnt fully ready to go all the way to backup up his "use what works, discard what doesnt" JKD philosophy.

Do you even know what Jun Fan means?? It's Lee's Chinese name!! Jun Fan JKD is just Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. Though it used to reference to his early teachings in his first two schools.

He closed these schools because he realised that much of the students had not caught the reasoning behind JKD (develop your own fighting method that best suit you, while using what works and discard the rest)and were just copying him. His best friend Dan Inosanto is the best example of how Lee intended this to work, in that Dan does not really jump on the JKD brand. But still works on the theory.

columok wrote:

But Paul since you're such a Bruce Lee fan...

Do you box like boxers? Do you thai box like thai guys? Do you roll like BJJers? Do you wrestle like freestylers?

I love all combat systems! There is not a Combat Art in the world that I would not watch or have a go at. Time and Life tend to get in the way of doing as much as I would like to do (this will happen to you too. I was doing 3 martial arts fulltime at one stage!). So I have a school of Martial Arts where I can go and meet with people that want to do that also in a free learning enviroment (and we do Kata :P ). Over this new year training I will be calling in some buddies in other TKD's and MA's (many like what you have mentioned and maybe some more??) to show the group there style. So that we can all get the idea to what the other guys are doing, and someone may even learn something that could fit into there fight, if they are open to the experience??

columok wrote:

They're the fundamentals.

I totally agree that all the ranges must be covered. Though I would not close out any style or individual that could give a different perspective on things incase we are dismissing something without due cause.

columok wrote:

Bruce Lee recognised some of that though he may not have been willing to go all the way with his realisation.

Why are you training in his theory then?

Because he got the "Martial Arts" world thinking for themselves and not to bow down to Asian "Masters" spouting out how great there style is because it saved some guy in the mountains one day while he was attacked by goats!!

columok wrote:

Do all the kata and pressure point stuff if you like

Thanks

columok wrote:

but if you're not doing the fundamentals to apply your pressure point strikes...

You have infact repeated something I have always said (and I'm sure I have posted on this Board).

I bet you think that I just try to hit a point and wait for the person to KO?? And the main drive of my PP training is to KO?? And that PP's are the only thing that I train at??

Was'int there a thread started by dlofenp http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=299381 this guy Bill Packer was doing TMA (Kempo) and his students had some good results in MMA.

Don't try to turn this into the same old thing again!!

columok

Who were "mirred"? The Boxers, Wrestlers, Judoka, Freestyle Karate(Kickboxing) champions he trained with?? I don't think so!!

No. Most TMA people actually.

Do you even know what Jun Fan means?? It's Lee's Chinese name!! Jun Fan JKD is just Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. Though it used to reference to his early teachings in his first two schools.

MY reference was to his early "kung fu" teachings.

I love all combat systems! There is not a Combat Art in the world that I would not watch or have a go at. Time and Life tend to get in the way of doing as much as I would like to do (this will happen to you too. I was doing 3 martial arts fulltime at one stage!). So I have a school of Martial Arts where I can go and meet with people that want to do that also in a free learning enviroment (and we do Kata :P ). Over this new year training I will be calling in some buddies in other TKD's and MA's (many like what you have mentioned and maybe some more??) to show the group there style. So that we can all get the idea to what the other guys are doing, and someone may even learn something that could fit into there fight, if they are open to the experience??

Aah but can you really go all JKD if you arent willing to discard. Open minded is great and all aslong as it's accompanied by a healthy skepticism and the ability to not form emotional attachments to belts and training practises.

Though I would not close out any style or individual that could give a different perspective on things incase we are dismissing something without due cause.

Bruce Lee probably would.

Why are you training in his theory then?

Bruce Lee didnt invent sparring. Bruce Lee didnt invent MMA.

Because he got the "Martial Arts" world thinking for themselves and not to bow down to Asian "Masters" spouting out how great there style is because it saved some guy in the mountains one day while he was attacked by goats!!

This is only noteworthy because so many MA people were living in lala land. Many still are.

Was'int there a thread started by dlofenp http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=299381 this guy Bill Packer was doing TMA (Kempo) and his students had some good results in MMA.

You wanna do well in MMA you train MMA not Kempo.

I think these were Full Contact Karate guys

Roper

Maybe it's because I'm tired and hungover, but this entire debate seems to be occuring on another plain of existence, one where past, present, science and fantasy exist together in some kind of incoherent jumble.

PMA,
I don't question Lee's methods because they're remarkably simple, and there's really no need to question them since they're what essentially most combat sports men and women train, they just don't phiosophise about it, or look to the past. They train for the now.

There might be more to him, but quite frankly, none of the stories from his streetfighting days impress me. What would impress me, would be his boxing record, since he was such a fast guy.

So tell me about his hand speed? Was there power behind it, did he KO somebody? What sort of combos was he throwing?

For superior hand speed see Sugar Ray Leonard, Sugar Ray Robinson, Oscar De La Hoya, Muhammed Ali.

Absolute fantasy.

walshb

Buce Lee was bout 5 ft 7 and weighed about 130 lbs. Forget Ray Leonard and DLH and Ali......Barry McGuigan would have wiped the floor wih Lee.....Lee never won any major competition in any major combat sport, that is fact. He was never a boxing world champ, never a karate world champ, never a Muay Thai world cham or anything else for that matter. A great little choreographer and fantastic at making fight sequences look brilliant, but realistically speaking he was no better than your average street fighter down the local. I was a huge Lee fan up until the age of about 12, then I started maturing a bit and realised that all you see in these Hollywood films is not true to life. As for the 1 inch punch theory, that says it all really..........very funny. People always talk abou Lee's speed, they never equate it to a real fight situation, so it can never really be taken seriously, Ali, Leonard, Robinson ec etc proved to the world in man against man of what speed is all about...Lee just looked good throwing piss ant flicks and jabs.....sure anyone with a good sense of balance and rythm with a wee bit of training could do that.....

pma-ire

columok wrote:

No. Most TMA people actually.

Who are you talking about then? Dan Inosanto was never a TMA'ist! And I've never heard of any of his students being TMA'ers. But if they were, then so what! They had moved over to a new way of thinking.

columok wrote:

MY reference was to his early "kung fu" teachings.

His Gung Fu school was not really a TMA! He was even bucking the boat of the TMA's world then. Most of the concepts of JKD were developed before and during that early Gung Fu school.

columok wrote:

Aah but can you really go all JKD if you arent willing to discard. Open minded is great and all aslong as it's accompanied by a healthy skepticism and the ability to not form emotional attachments to belts and training practises.

I don't do JKD!

I do a TMA (as you would define it!). But "A punch is just a punch, and a kick is just a kick". What matters is what works for you as you are the best person to work that out.

As far as belt go! I don't wear my rank bars! I have passed off many offers to take my 3rd dan grading! In JungShin TKD Kwan I have removed all the Tip ranks and there are only 6 belts, and are used as a way to show level in training (much like Judo who started the belt and gi in martial arts).

columok wrote:

Bruce Lee probably would.

Indeed, but instead of flaming and whitewashing all combat arts or TMA's that were'int classed as fitting into his fight plan. He looked into it first, and trained with the top guys in the states at those arts at the time. He even went to India to look at their MA's first hand!

columok wrote:

Bruce Lee didnt invent sparring.

No he did'int! Who said he did?? Lion and Tiger clubs spar FCS so man did'int even invent it!!

columok wrote:

Bruce Lee didnt invent MMA.

In the form that Sport MMA was been created! NO! But some of the people that started in MMA have trained in JKD, and many use the training methods though some may not really call it that. Lee promoted cross-training (as in training with indivduals of other arts not really having to train in clubs to get the idea). MMA has become a much different animal.

columok wrote:

This is only noteworthy because so many MA people were living in lala land. Many still are.

Yes, so are you agreeing with me here or not???

columok wrote:

You wanna do well in MMA you train MMA not Kempo.

:rolleyes:

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

So tell me about his hand speed? Was there power behind it, did he KO somebody? What sort of combos was he throwing?

He punched like a boxer! He moved like a boxer! I'm sure he threw any number of combos. But then that don't matter either?

As for power, read this little passage http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:9Ds-ZsMgFLUJ:www.mikementzer.com/blee.html+bruce+lee+punching+bag&hl=en

But I know that won't make any difference to your possition on Bruce Lee.

Millionaire

thats a good article

Roper

pma-ire wrote:

He punched like a boxer! He moved like a boxer! I'm sure he threw any number of combos. But then that don't matter either?

Again, his record please? I punch like a boxer and move like a boxer when I box. It doesn't make me a boxer!

From the article:

On this basis, according to those who worked out with Lee from time to time such as martial arts actor Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee -- pound for pound-- might well have been one of the most powerful men in the world.

20 odd years of pseudo-scientific hyperbole such as this have meant that this mans achievements (and I don't doubt he has some real ones as I've said above) have taken on new forms, chinese whisper style.

A good example is above, might have been, will eventually become "pound for pount THE most powerful man in the world" according to some fans. I agree with walshb, Barry McGuigan would have had him.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Again, his record please? I punch like a boxer and move like a boxer when I box. It doesn't make me a boxer!

I never said he was a boxer. You wanted to know if he punched hard.

I know he's not the best there was or is at everything. What was being said was that he put out the idea to the masses about mixing it up.

loz

walshb wrote:

Buce Lee was bout 5 ft 7 and weighed about 130 lbs. Forget Ray Leonard and DLH and Ali......Barry McGuigan would have wiped the floor wih Lee.....Lee never won any major competition in any major combat sport, that is fact. He was never a boxing world champ, never a karate world champ, never a Muay Thai world cham or anything else for that matter. A great little choreographer and fantastic at making fight sequences look brilliant, but realistically speaking he was no better than your average street fighter down the local. I was a huge Lee fan up until the age of about 12, then I started maturing a bit and realised that all you see in these Hollywood films is not true to life. As for the 1 inch punch theory, that says it all really..........very funny. People always talk abou Lee's speed, they never equate it to a real fight situation, so it can never really be taken seriously, Ali, Leonard, Robinson ec etc proved to the world in man against man of what speed is all about...Lee just looked good throwing piss ant flicks and jabs.....sure anyone with a good sense of balance and rythm with a wee bit of training could do that.....

He was world cha-cha-cha dance champ

walshb

loz wrote:

He was world cha-cha-cha dance champ

I could well believe that!!!

Millionaire

and Michael Flatley was a Golden Gloves boxer too!!! ;-)

Roper

I'm finished with this as I think I've put my point across. But I just wanted to sign off by advising people to watch movies diligently and with a healthy dose of reality

pma-ire

ihatepunx wrote:

yeah lock this thread up and throw away the key. all key points have been made, it's all repetition now, agree to disagree. I accept it was a question that was impossible to answer definitievly.

Hey man! This is the 3rd or 4th thread since I've found this board about Bruce Lee and they all ended up pretty much the same.

Millionaire

funny thing is they all at Roy Harris Seminars and he is a JKD man under Vunak.

happy to train with Roy but they all run down who his linage is???

which is not on really.

just my 2 cents

Roper

I wouldn't say run down Millionaire. Like I've said above, the basis of the training is good. Also, even if they do run down his lineage, why not train with Harris if you feel he has something to offer? Someone might think my instructor's rubbish but train with me and I wouldn't have a problem with it cos that's their opinion.

Millionaire

No I just think it is funny :-)

Hank_Scorpio

Alot of people seem to think that Bruce Lee had a style of karate. He didn't, he said himself on countless occasions that his style was "no style". He adapted his style of fighting to whatever it needed to be. The reason he became a movie star was because he was reckonised for his martial art skills and that was brought to the movie screen. It wasn't that he wanted to be a movie star and learnt martial arts.

You can compare anyone and ask who would win a fight between so and so, it don't mean squat till you get the both of them in the ring. Look at the fight Lennox Lewis lost to some unknown over a lucky punch. Does that mean he's worse than that guy, of course it doesn't.

Bruce Lee had no official fights. He fought on the streets in his home town and won. He is probably only one of the few martial artists out there that actually did street fighting and not competition fighting (2 completely different things in my opinion). People say there's no record of him fighting, well of course there isn't. Street fights aren't documented. You can see photographs of Bruce in riots in his home town in newspaper clippings and what nots (whether it's really bruce or not is another story) He was a true street fighter and he was recognised for that and that was brought to the silver screens.

He thought his methods in America and physically had to fight for the right to teach his method. And he was teaching so I take it he won that too.

He was a legend of his era and I'm sure if he were still around today he'd be working and training on ways to beat the MMA guys cos that's what he did. He studied that era's fighting techniques and improved on them. Someone else studied Bruce's techniques and improved on them after he died. I'd call it information continuation change and manipulation. It's how all Martial Arts evolved.

Let's face it MMA guys aren't invincible either, and some people seem to think they are. You won't know what's going to happen in a fight until it happens. It only takes 1 punch, slap, pull, break, choke, kick, knee etc. to end a fight. It's not rocket science. You hit someone hard and fast they go down. That's what Bruce Lee was good at and that's why in my opinion he'd stand just a good a chance as anyone else who hit's hard and fast in the ring or on the street.

Musashi

Personally I doubt Bruce Lee was the best ever Martial Artist in the world ever.
Potentially the best MA guy ever is a sheep herd in Patagonia and will never attempt MA's, but if he did he'd be hell on wheels. It doesn't matter.
Lee brought a change in outlook to all MAers, it's easy to say "It was obvious" so why was he the first to point it out?

Like I can say E=MC squared, obvious. I don't know what it means but I'm told it's true and important. But to be the first guy to work out something completely new from scratch! That takes skill, intelligence, and a leap from what is known to what could be.

MMA today can be traced back to Lee, what trainer has made such a change to the face of the Martial Arts world since? New and better methods come along, I'm working through the latest version of Tom Kurz stretching book atm. The footnotes are a college course in themselves! But basically it's all just gilding what Lee brought about, once you've seen cross training no-one can go back to single style training.
As for Bruce not being the best MA/Fighter himself, many if not all top trainers aren't champions in their own right.It's a seperate skill to draw the best from a fighter, and from watching interviews most champs are dumb as a bag of hammers