Lidl, Aldi prices rising?

luckat

Met a woman the other day who's more scientific about her grocery bills than myself. She said that she got various items in Lidl and Aldi - but she said the prices were gradually rising in some of these. In one case, a fruit juice, it used to be something like 79c when she got it first, now it's something like €1.20.

Is she right? Has anyone else noticed this happening? Is it so at all, or is she talking through her hat?

nesf

Moved to Consumer Issues.

JungleBunny

Yes I have noticed this too.
I have also noticed the gradual decline of really cheap products.
Lidl used to have some canned goods that they sold for about 20% of the price being asked by all other major supermarkets/shops.
Within about 3 weeks, they were told to remove items such as these from their shelves... somehting to do with price fixing and not being in competition.

Now I dont know anything about these laws, but I would have thought that pricing these items well below what everyone else is charging would encourage competition.... i.e that Tesco and Dunnes etc lower their prices too.

Obviously it is possible to import and store goods in ireland without the major costs that these shops are always telling us about.
If Lidl can do it why can't Tesco?

I find nothing wrong with Lidl and these types of shops only encourage competition... Just look at Germany. Lidl and Aldi are huge and the quality is almost as good as anywhere else. So why pay more.
And why force these retailers to up their prices???? Price fixing my arse!!

Eoin

Probably something to do with the Grocery act which prohibits selling certain goods below cost. The point of this was that so small retailers wouldn't be priced out of the market.

As I understand it, the main problem with this is that supermarkets buy at bulk, and get their discount from the supplier afterwards. This means that the price per unit on their invoice is the same as the price per unit that a small retailer pays, and therefore they can't sell below this price - which is obviously more than they actually paid for it.

However, Aldi and Lidl don't generally sell the same brands as other retailers over here, so I don't know how they can really compare the prices.

Sponge Bob

luckat wrote:

In one case, a fruit juice, it used to be something like 79c when she got it first, now it's something like €1.20.

aldi orange juice was it ? she is correct

luckat

I'm in two minds myself. What'dye call that huge American conglomerate run by the Walton family - Walmart, that's it - has wiped out smaller markets all over America. It came in, sold stuff below cost (supported by being able to buy stuff in huge quantities for tiny prices) and when it had stolen all the customers and the smaller shops and supermarkets had shut down, it now had a monopoly, and raised prices to way more than they'd been.

Or so I've read, maybe it's not true. But it's worth bearing in mind.

On the other hand, the shops that currently gouge Irish consumers - descendants of the gombeen men who were the only people to profit from the Famine - will charge anything they can get away with, while grinding the farmers for cheaper and cheaper rates for their meat and fruit and vegetables.

Eoin

Just found this on the National Consumer Agency (NCA) site :

The most controversial aspect of the Groceries Order is the ban on selling certain grocery goods at less than the net invoice price paid by the retailer. The ban prohibits retailers from passing on to consumers any additional discounts that they receive from their suppliers which are off-invoice. For example, a retailer buys a product for €1 which is the recorded price on the invoice. Subsequently he/she receives discounts for bulk purchasing of 12c per item. By law the retailer is not allowed to sell the product at less than €1 even though the final cost to him/her is 88c. The larger the order, the greater the discount.

As I thought, the large retailers can not pass on the savings they make by buying at bulk.

netwhizkid

eoin_s wrote:

As I thought, the large retailers can not pass on the savings they make by buying at bulk.

Yes this is a major point raised on the last "Rip-Off Ireland" basically all i say is what can we do only use our vote, Do you want another 5 years of these *&$%£'s in government, If so please return to where you were born to have brain inserted. I have no pity on the Irish people they voted for these traitors so let them get ripped off.

dahamsta

I know it's a bit tinfoil-hatty, but I think it odd that the very first issue the newly-crowned NCA jumps in on is the Groceries Order. At the very least, objecting to it on the grounds they've stated is extremely short-sighted. Below-cost and off-invoice selling will certainly cut prices in the short-term, but as someone has already pointed out, it's proven that it hurts indigenous business in the medium term, and will almost certainly hurt competition in the long term. Free trade is all well and good, but shouldn't we be allowed to give some protection to local businesses?

While we're on the subject, it can't be denied that the Consumer's Assocation of Ireland isn't much more effective that ComReg, but why have we created another agency to handle consumer issues exactly?

adam

Dub13

dahamsta wrote:

but why have we created another agency to handle consumer issues exactly?

Handy jobs for the boys (and girls)

dahamsta

One girl in particular...

Dub13

dahamsta wrote:

One girl in particular...

Yes but as she said,she is a Consumer,,, :rolleyes: great credential's for the job.Actiualy when you think about it you want people in these "handy jobs" to have NO business links whatsoever.

gonker

In drogheda the local traders have banded together and objected to a lidl and an aldi opening in the area. competition my ass. I wouldnt mind but the local tesco and dunnes are a joke.

Dub13

gonker wrote:

In drogheda the local traders have banded together and objected to a lidl and an aldi opening in the area. competition my ass.

The local people should get together and boycott the local traders.See how they like that.

gonker

Think someone suggested that already but anybody who had a car shops elsewhere anyway as there is no free parking in drogheda so that is what they are afraid off too as aldi and lidl give free parking

dahamsta

Dub13 wrote:

Yes but as she said,she is a Consumer

I was thinking more of the person that describers herself as a "businesswoman".

adam

masterK

Another valid point raised in Rip-off Republic programme concerned the so called small corner shops who are being protected by the Groceries order, where are these shops? Most small shops these days are major franchises such as Spar, Londis, Centra, Super Valu etc who also benefit from being able to buy in bulk.

In Dublin there are very few small indepentently owned grocery shops, I'd imagine it's the same for most urban areas in Ireland. So it begs the question, who exactly in 2005 Ireland is the Groceries Order protecting?

luckat

dahamsta wrote:

While we're on the subject, it can't be denied that the Consumer's Assocation of Ireland isn't much more effective that ComReg, but why have we created another agency to handle consumer issues exactly?

adam

Because that's what we do in Ireland. Look at the letters in the Irish Times. Every couple of weeks there's a new controversy - littering, speeding, people shooting at each other - and a flood of letters comes in screeching "Make a law against it!"

The fact that there's *already* a law against it seems to be forgotten in each case.

So the Minister pulls his belt tight, takes a deep breath and Makes a Law. Everyone's satisfied. Of course, it doesn't make a damn a bit of difference, but Something Has Been Done.

Tazz T

That's a very good point, MasterK.

parsi

masterK wrote:

Another valid point raised in Rip-off Republic programme concerned the so called small corner shops who are being protected by the Groceries order, where are these shops? Most small shops these days are major franchises such as Spar, Londis, Centra, Super Valu etc who also benefit from being able to buy in bulk.

In Dublin there are very few small indepentently owned grocery shops, I'd imagine it's the same for most urban areas in Ireland. So it begs the question, who exactly in 2005 Ireland is the Groceries Order protecting?

But the Groceries Order only covers a small subset of the vast range carried in any supermarket. So Mr Tesco or MR Dunne are free to discount everything else to bits but yet we don't see too much of that !

I think Tesco is a good example. It is a massive company and must have considerable muscle in the purchasing arena and yet it doesn't go around undercutting Dunnes to any great degree. But yet they claim that if the Groceries order is revoked we'll get loads of cheap things. If they can't show competition on non-protected items then why should we believe them ?

I got a 3litre box of wine in Carrefour for around 8 euro in France. Tesco have similar 3litre "no real name" boxes for eur22 ! Surely tax , duty & additional transport doesn't account for 14euro and if Tesco is such a big player it should be able to do a much better price.

Eoin

parsi wrote:

But the Groceries Order only covers a small subset of the vast range carried in any supermarket. So Mr Tesco or MR Dunne are free to discount everything else to bits but yet we don't see too much of that !

I think Tesco is a good example. It is a massive company and must have considerable muscle in the purchasing arena and yet it doesn't go around undercutting Dunnes to any great degree. But yet they claim that if the Groceries order is revoked we'll get loads of cheap things. If they can't show competition on non-protected items then why should we believe them ?

I got a 3litre box of wine in Carrefour for around 8 euro in France. Tesco have similar 3litre "no real name" boxes for eur22 ! Surely tax , duty & additional transport doesn't account for 14euro and if Tesco is such a big player it should be able to do a much better price.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have posted this in a few different threads so far, but it seems relevant here.

SVP and another major Irish charity have come out in favour of the Grocery act, as they believe that it does help the poorer people. However, this may only be because they are afraid that smaller retailers may be driven from their local areas, and they will not have the method or means to travel to a supermarket in a different area.

A study (sorry, don't have any links - heard this on the radio) showed that the average person knows the value of 10% of their groceries. Therefore they do not know if they are being over charged for the other 90% of the items in their basket. This is where the supermarkets will recoup the discounts they "pass" on. Don't think they want to pass on their lower prices out of any charitable feeling on their behalf.

Unfortunately, Ms Ann Fitzgerald comes across as nothing of an expert whatsoever, and Mr Hobbs has come across as someone who stretches the facts to breaking point. So anything the two of them say has little credibility with a lot of people.

Hells_Belle

luckat wrote:

I'm in two minds myself. What'dye call that huge American conglomerate run by the Walton family - Walmart, that's it - has wiped out smaller markets all over America. It came in, sold stuff below cost (supported by being able to buy stuff in huge quantities for tiny prices) and when it had stolen all the customers and the smaller shops and supermarkets had shut down, it now had a monopoly, and raised prices to way more than they'd been.

Or so I've read, maybe it's not true. But it's worth bearing in mind.

Just to clarify, the problem with WalMart is not that they raise the prices once they've secured a regional monopoly. They don't - they're still very, very cheap.

The problem is that their business practices are devastating.

Firstly, WalMart demands a decrease in wholesale costs from suppliers year on year. After you have invested in expansion of staff and manufacturing, you're pretty stuck and probably in hock to the banks, so it sucks to be a WalMart supplier. Many medium sized suppliers have learned not to get into bed with WalMart and turn away their business now.

Secondly, because of their low prices (see above) WalMart drives local independent retailers out of business. These are family businesses employing people from the local community. You are then faced with a situation where WalMart is the biggest, if not the only, local employer for unskilled workers.

So now a very sizeable percentage of a town's population is unemployed or working at WalMart. WalMart pays minimum wage. Working a standard work week on minimum wage in the US puts you below the poverty line. WalMart also has an HR policy of employing workers for standard 38-hours a week contracts. Remember that there is no national health care in the US. Walmart is only required to provide health cover for full time (ie 40 hours a week) employees.

So now we have people working 38 hours a week on minimum wage with no employer-provided health cover. Since they're living below the poverty line, and the costs of private health insurance in the US are outrageous, they also have no health insurance for themselves or their children.

If WalMart ever tries to come to town in Ireland (which I think is unlikely), believe me when I tell you it's worth an armed revolution. The money you'll save on shopping is not worth the cost.

Paddy20

In my home town of Ballybofey, Co' Donegal., ALDI were blocked from opening, and now Tesco who have purchased development land for a massive superstore, have been objected to by a group of the local MAFIA despite the fact that local citizens who have transport drive 15 miles once a week to Aldi, Lidl and Tesco in Letterkenny .

Most people in this area are sick too death of being Ripped -Off by the local grocery stores, and there rubbish stock/selection. Those that are suffering the most are the poor, the disabled/housebound without transport who rely on getting their weekly food delivered by these overpriced rubbish establishments.

Now, LIDL are looking for a suitable site in this locality, and they have indicated that the Greedy local mafia will not stop them from moving in to the Twin-Towns .

As a native of this community the price of most of lifes essentials from local suppliers has always been a bloody disgrace. When I was a boy we had a grocery CO-Op, even that was forced out.

The government should introduce legislation allowing private business concerns selling life's essential's such as food to sell 'Loss Leaders under cost to the public, and who the hell do they think they are dictating to business owners in a so called Free State. Civil servants and government quango's in Ireland need a good kick up the arse , or out the bloody door.

Enough is enough. :mad:

Paddy.

N.B. As for the Fruit Juice price increase at ALDI!. They were sourcing locally produced juices and had a contract with a well known Ballybofey producer who supplied them with a range of stangely named fruit juices in Tetra packs. I am delighted that ALDI have now cancelled their contract with this Irish Ballybofey based plant, which is a very badly run outfit producing a product from a stinking factory estate, that should be shut down on health ground's. I would rather pay more for safe too drink fruit juice, anytime. :rolleyes:

byte

Am I right in thinking that Tesco was objected to by the local filling stations, because Tesco were planning to open a filling station also? Though with that said, filling stations in Ballybofey are quite expensive, usually 5-10c more expensive than Donegal Town.

I was unwaware that Aldi had been rejected in Twin towns.

As for the fruit juice supplier in Ballybofey, sure aren't they providing employment for people in the community? I've heard about the stink and waste issues from it, but still, it's an employer.

luckat

Hells Bells, thanks for an informative and scary post. *Very* interesting.

What are Aldi's and Lidl's employment practices, anyone know? Most of their employees seem to be eastern European - efficient, courteous, a bit rushed, and not that ecstatic looking, but maybe that's just the way they wear their faces.

Interesting about the fruit juice plant. This juice my acquaintance was talking about was something like grape and mango juice - some strange mixture.

Wouldn't you think that the supermarket giant could have said "clean up or we call the health authorities" to the producer?

But then maybe it's like milk in bottles. The reason milk stopped being produced in bottles, I heard at the time, was that the bottles were kept outside and snails and things were crawling into them. Rather than making a cleaner storage method, the companies moved to Tetra-paks. (Of course, this may be an urban legend.)

The new Lidl in Kenilworth is going to be relatively tiny, by the way - I was looking at the planning permission notice outside it, and it's only going to be 500 square metres, with bike parking (good!) and a few car park spaces underneath and a couple of apartments and I think a cafe - not sure - on top.

Incidentally, from the Sunday Business Post:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/07/25/story753452676.asp

Lidl accused of profiteering

Sunday, July 25, 2004
By Kathleen Barrington
German discounter Lidl has been accused of profiteering after a survey carried out by The Sunday Business Post found Irish consumers were paying more than twice as much for certain goods compared with continental Europeans.Michael Kilcoyne, chairman of the Consumers' Association of Ireland (CAI), called on the German company to explain the reasons for the massive discrepancies.

``The very least the company should do is provide an answer to the Irish consumer,'' he said.

Lidl charges 119 per cent more for the identical lemon scouring cream in Ireland compared with France, 88 per cent more for cola and coffee, 64 per cent more for cashew nuts, 56 per cent more for paper hankies, 40 per cent more for detergents and over 20 per cent more on a range of other product items.

The mark-up on wine is as high as 145 per cent in some cases, even after stripping out the hefty Irish government excise duties.

Of 25 product lines surveyed by this newspaper, only three - orange juice, sunflower oil and pot-scourers - were cheaper in Lidl's store in Arklow, Co Wicklow, compared with its store at Bourg St Maurice in the French Alps.

The surveys were carried out within days of each other earlier this month. The products selected for inclusion in the survey were mainly Lidl own-brand products for ease of comparison.

Earlier independent surveys showed that German discounters Lidl and Aldi were typically about 30 per cent cheaper than their Irish rivals such as Dunnes Stores, Superquinn, and the British-owned Tesco.

Outside Lidl's store in Arklow last week, a couple who had travelled from Dublin to Arklow to avail of the cheaper prices said they were not surprised to hear that Lidl's Irish operation was substantially more expensive than its French outlet.

``Everything is dearer in Ireland,'' the woman said.

Asked why they thought Lidl would be more expensive in Ireland than in France, the man suggested that it might have to do with the cost of land and property in this country.

The CAI's Kilcoyne doubted that large price discrepancies could be explained by higher costs in this country. He said that wage costs in France were about the same as in the Republic.

Kilcoyne said that, while Lidl was clearly cheaper than many supermarket operators in the Republic, ``it seems it's taking advantage of high prices in Ireland to boost profits. The attitude is `everybody's at it', and they get in on the act.''

Lidl did not respond to requests for a comment.

<snip>

dsab

Just by the way, as someone above asked. Aldi is known for paying far above what other retailers are paying.

I think Aldis Starting salary in Ireland is something like 9.75 an hour, afaik. Far more then the minimum wage the other retailers are paying.

In germany aldi is known for being a great employer, and many people stay with them for a very long time.

luckat

I asked. Good to hear. Good reason to shop with Aldi.

Paddy20

If I had a choice in my home town of Ballybofey, Co' Donegal. It would be LIDL for me everytime

P.

lostinsuperfunk

Yes, Aldi pays above minimum wage. According to Wikipedia (not always an unbiased source) Lidl has fallen foul of trade unions in Germany for bad labour practices. Don't know what they're like here.

Mr.M

They (ALDI) are a good company to work for. pay is above the minimum wage and conditions and the envoirment in it are pretty good mainly because of the pretty small number of people that work in it. usually everyone knows everyone after a short period of time.

thesteve

On the subject of the differences in pricing between Ireland and the rest of europe... bottle of vodka in Lidl Ireland, 15 euro, moved to Germany and the EXACT same bottle, 5 euro... and there's no way there's 10 euro going on tax, etc...