How to Drive on the motorways

jubbly

MAKING THE MOST OF OUR MOTORWAYS
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* I have been asked once more by colleagues, friends and a couple of gardai, to let it be known that the outside lane on a motorway or dual carriageway is technically designated as the overtaking lane.

I know, I know, on a packed M50 that makes no sense. But when traffic is flowing, it is extraordinary how many people tiddle along out there at 90/100kph.

Traffic legally entitled to do 120kph builds up behind them, then moves into the inside lane and that leads to all sorts of potentially dangerous manoeuvres. Stick to the inside if not overtaking. It is simple, legal and safer.

I thought the lane on your right when your driving is the over taking lane, is that wrong ? If not why is so many irish people using the lane closest to the verge as the slow lane ? what is common practice in the rest of Europe ? I know in Germany you can pass either side on the autobahn

murphaph

jubbly wrote:

I know in Germany you can pass either side on the autobahn

No you can't and if the cops see you you're fcuked! You must pass on the left in Germany and they don't take kindly to offside lane hoggers over there either. You just pass and move the fcuk back in, sharpish!

stag39

i know in france they will fine you if staying in the overtaking lane!!! even with congestion the traffic flows are a speedy pace!!!

Victor

jubbly wrote:

I know in Germany you can pass either side on the autobahn

You can in most parts of the USA, but I don't think many other places allow it.

BrianD

Perhaps the Government can spend some of the millions generated from the Insurance levy on road safety advertisements and public information leading to safer driving techniques. Remember all those TV ads we had in the '80's? We were 'broke' back then so why can't we afford them now?

IDMUD

The only time you should be in the right hand lane (apart from overtaking) is when you pass an onramp to make merging traffic smoother.

Solair

Motorway (and Motorway spec. dual carriageway) driving in Ireland is generally pretty bad. Most drivers don't have a clue how to do it.

The people driving at ridiculously slow speeds in the "fast lane" is only one example of the problem.

In Cork, I regularly come across drivers entering the N25 South ring road around the city, which is built to motorway specs, who have no idea how to use a motorway entry ramp.
Rather than accelerating and matching the speed of the traffic on the motorway they try will crawl down the ramp and then try and enter the moving traffic at less than 30 mph.

I've also seen this behaviour on the M50.

Also, on both the M50 and the south ring drivers regularly seem to intentionally block merging traffic rather than trying to allow it to merge. It may not be illegal but it's dangerous and damn inconsiderate.

I saw a KY registered car stop in fast moving traffic at the entrance to the jack lynch tunnel and then attempt to reverse out of it as the guy simply didn't want to drive through it.

There is a major problem with tail gating here too. I've seen plenty of occasions where rather than pass on a motorway / dual carriage way that a drive would sit on the tail of the cars ahead of him/her. You end up with a tightly formed "road train" of cars where if one driver hesitates / touches the brakes you've got a pile up on your hands.

The situation's even worse on single carriageway roads.


Roundabouts... again half of our drivers don't know how to use these at all. People enter, don't bother to indicate and then exit or indicate to exit at the first exit then plough on through the roundabout.

and finally indicators..

Loads of Irish drivers (urban and rural) seem to think that indicators were put on their cars for fun. You can either have someone pull out in front of you without indicating or if you're trying to turn right onto a major road where many cars are turning left most wont bother to indicate until the last min. if at all and will leave you stranded thinking that they're going to drive straight on.

Also one that's specific to Dublin drivers... take a chill pill! I have never in my entire life come across anywhere where drivers are so unforgiving. If someone isn't 100% familiar with a particular junction layout or has to read the usualy impossible to read without binoculars signs they start blasting their horns, cutting people off and flashing when someone hesitates or has to change lane at the last min.

Even london drivers arn't that bad!

mackerski

IDMUD wrote:

The only time you should be in the right hand lane (apart from overtaking) is when you pass an onramp to make merging traffic smoother.

This is your opinion - there's no rule or guideline stating this, and there are very many cases when you certainly shouldn't do it and would be better off just leaving a decent-sized gap between you and the car in front.

The only official purpose of the overtaking lane is (amazingly) to overtake.

Dermot

DubTony

Solair wrote:

Also one that's specific to Dublin drivers... take a chill pill! I have never in my entire life come across anywhere where drivers are so unforgiving. If someone isn't 100% familiar with a particular junction layout or has to read the usualy impossible to read without binoculars signs they start blasting their horns, cutting people off and flashing when someone hesitates or has to change lane at the last min.

Even london drivers arn't that bad!

You've obviously never driven in Manhattan
AFAIR a very apt quote went something like this...

A New York second is the time between the lights changing green and the three cars behind you blowing their horns.

mackerski wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IDMUD
The only time you should be in the right hand lane (apart from overtaking) is when you pass an onramp to make merging traffic smoother. /Quote


This is your opinion - there's no rule or guideline stating this, and there are very many cases when you certainly shouldn't do it and would be better off just leaving a decent-sized gap between you and the car in front.

The only official purpose of the overtaking lane is (amazingly) to overtake.

This cannot be stressed enough. There are way too many plonkers pulling out to let others on the Mway when there is absolutely no need. These "courteous" drivers are probably the same ones that scream up to a red light and won't let a parked car into the traffic.

murphaph

by the same token, there's a lot of poor drivers who, when joining the freeflowing m-way seem to perfectly match the speed of the car right beside them in lane 1 and want that car to either slow down or speed up to create a gap. They don't realise it's their responsibility not to unduly cause a vehicle already on the m-way to alter course or vary their speed. I rank them as ignorant as the motorists who refuse to leave a gap (you know the sort-won't dare look to the left for fear of making eye contact) in front when the M50 is completely choc-a-bloc and they're passing a congested entrance to the m-way.

Victor

Solair wrote:

In Cork, I regularly come across drivers entering the N25 South ring road around the city, which is built to motorway specs,

The SRR is not to motorway specification. It has 4 roundabouts, restricted sight distances, missing hard shoulders, short merging lanes, tight curves and adverse camber.

Doesn't it also have a predestrian crossing on the Kinsale Road roundabout?

Bluetonic

IDMUD wrote:

The only time you should be in the right hand lane (apart from overtaking) is when you pass an onramp to make merging traffic smoother.

Thats nuts, there is no need to move from the left hand lane when traffic is merging from the left.

Firstly its illegal but secondly you get cars pulling into the overtaking lane doing 50kph.. NUTS.

seamus

IDMUD wrote:

The only time you should be in the right hand lane (apart from overtaking) is when you pass an onramp to make merging traffic smoother.

It's a reasonable suggestion, but not all-encompassing. I would recommend only doing this when;
1. By moving into the overtaking lane, you are travelling at a speed where following traffic is not inconvenienced (i.e. they don't have to slow down)
2. Most importantly, when it's necessary due to the merging traffic travelling siginificantly slower than you, and/or space between vehicles is limited.

It's not an accepted rule of the road, but it's common sense really. You shouldn't move into the overtaking without good cause. If moving won't benefit anybody (or inconveniences somebody), then you shouldn't do it.
The N7/M50 junction is a good example of where people can't apply their common sense. They either move into the overtaking lane when no traffic is merging, or they move over despite the fact that the merging (and overtaking) traffic is moving faster than they are.

dmeehan

Victor wrote:

The SRR is not to motorway specification. It has 4 roundabouts, restricted sight distances, missing hard shoulders, short merging lanes, tight curves and adverse camber.

Doesn't it also have a predestrian crossing on the Kinsale Road roundabout?

indeed it does, and it now also has a ped-Xing over to the centre of the roundabout, but no other Xing to get off the centre, so you have to come back

murphaph

dmeehan wrote:

indeed it does, and it now also has a ped-Xing over to the centre of the roundabout, but no other Xing to get off the centre, so you have to come back

Seems strange to add anything to it given that the N25 will be flown over that roundabout.

Benster

I entirely agree that many motorway users do not know the rules when it comes to driving on such roads. To see the M50 is to often-times witness a free-for-all with undertaking, tail-gating and lack of adequate use of indicators apparent on just about every trip I make.

The point about using the overtaking lane was discussed at a work-break one time, and my point was this: if I was overtaking a slower vehicle, with another vehicle keeping pace with it in the overtaking lane, I should be able to signal that I wanted the car keeping pace to get back in lane and not hog the overtaking lane. I'd flash my lights, after giving a few seconds for the driver to see that I was behind him/her and make a move. The hubbub of "No, never flash. Don't flash your lights, that's rude" was surprising, almost as surprising as the suggested action of "Just drive up behind them, they'll get the message". I couldn't believe it. Most folk in the group advocated approaching to within a dangerous distance over offending a driver's sensitivity.

I do accept that allowances have to be made on the recommended way to drive on motorways when refering to the river of metal that is the M50. With such a heavy volume of traffic, it is just not going to work if you insist that drivers ONLY use the right lane to overtake. It's an extension of the frustration drivers feel while trying to get from A to B that if there is an available piece of free road, they'll use it if it will get them there more quickly. The same happens at rush hour on the M1 out of Belfast and it's 3 lanes, they all get used until the traffic starts to thin out.

So as long as we (reluctantly) accept that the "Right lane for overtaking only" rule is practically suspended during peak times on the M50, there's only the incompetent drivers to give out about.

As I've said many times before on this forum, the Gardai Traffic Corp should be out there enforcing the law.

B.

mackerski

Benster wrote:

I do accept that allowances have to be made on the recommended way to drive on motorways when refering to the river of metal that is the M50. With such a heavy volume of traffic, it is just not going to work if you insist that drivers ONLY use the right lane to overtake.

I can't agree. On a full M50, it's more than likely that the overtaking lane will have continuous traffic in it, even without the muppetry of non-overtakers clogging the lane. An overtaking manoeuve involves entering the overtaking lane, staying there until you have passed all the traffic you wish to overtake and the re-entering lane 1. On a full M50, your manoeuvre might last, say, from the N7 to the N81, but that's reasonable as long as you don't just stay in the overtaking lane for the crack when you could have pulled back into an empty lane 1.

Clearly, this means that, on a full road, not everyone will get to overtake as swiftly as they might like. However, this isn't any kind of suspension of the overtaking rule, just a reduction in the efficiency of legal overtaking manoeuvres.

Dermot

Calina

I have to say that I don't believe a lack of knowledge is at the root of people not driving on motorways correctly. I think they know but they a) make a conscious decision to sit in the outside lane for no apparent reason or b) can't be bothered to apply the knowledge.

I drive the M7 to M50 route from Limerick to Dublin Airport pretty often and my experience is that on the M7 from Portlaoise to about Kildare/Newbridge, the driving is by and large, not that bad. Default lane is the inside lane except for overtaking, no sudden pulling out in front of oncoming traffic, the indicator usage isn't that hot but it's not the worst. Once you get into the real commuter belt, all hell breaks lose. It's no justification but I think people sit in the outside lane because they are afraid of getting stuck behind slower moving traffic and on the M50 there can be plenty of vehicles tootling along at 80kph sometimes. But it's the fact that the behaviour appears to change so abruptly around the Kildare/Newbridge area that leads me to assume people know exactly what they are doing wrong but are not of a mind to drive correctly.

As a result I loathe driving on the M50 unless it is dead empty and the part of the M7/N7 nearest Dublin but once I get out past Kildare, the trip to Limerick is generally a pleasure, and vice-versa on the way up.

Benster

mackerski wrote:

I can't agree. On a full M50, it's more than likely that the overtaking lane will have continuous traffic in it, even without the muppetry of non-overtakers clogging the lane. An overtaking manoeuve involves entering the overtaking lane, staying there until you have passed all the traffic you wish to overtake and the re-entering lane 1. On a full M50, your manoeuvre might last, say, from the N7 to the N81, but that's reasonable as long as you don't just stay in the overtaking lane for the crack when you could have pulled back into an empty lane 1.

Yes, I'd agree with that - on a quiet M50, get back in your lane. You hinted at a full overtaking lane, I'd say this is one of the reasons why folk sit in it for extended periods - because they don't want to get stuck behind a car for ages in the slow lane waiting for a gap in the overtaking column of traffic. Answer - ALWAYS sit in the overtaking column of traffic. As long as this behaviour doesn't continue for miles on end, I don't mind. As I said, get back in your lane.

Now, the "moving over for merging traffic" debate - for the most part I'd be on the side of those who do move over to let merging traffic join. I wouldn't do it if the traffic around and behind me was heavy, unnecessary lane changing can cause accidents, but if you have the space there's no sense in being awkward. I know some do not agree with this, it may not be totally within the rules, but I'd see it as having a bit of courtesy where often there is none.

B.

murphaph

In reality the M50 between J6 and J10 is a m-way in name only!

As for the practice of moving over to allow traffic to merge; on approaching J9 (Red Cow) heading northbound it is common to get a long uninterrupted stream of vehicles coming down the slip road to join the motorway. I'm pretty sure it's because of the Monastery Road traffic lights but anyway-if the overtaking lane is clear I will move out and allow unhindered entry to the m-way for the stream of vehicles coming onto lane 1.

Right or wrong? It doesn't matter to me-it's safer for all concerned to do this. I won't be sideswiped in someone's blindspot, maybe someone who shouldn't even ve on the motorway. You simply have to drive to the realities that most other drivers on the road are pretty poor.

On a quiet M1 with a solitary vehicle coming down the slip I may or may not do the same, depending on that vehicle's relative speed to mine. This is as much a courtessy as anything else. Who does it harm when there's no other vehicles behind or in front of me?

It's like letting someone out at a junction with a road of lesser importance. I don't have to do it, but what's the harm in being courteous if it affects nobody else?

LegacyUser

Apart from a basic lack of understanding of the concept of the overtaking lane, M50 drivers for the most park cannot get their heads around the concept of merging.

Most of them will go down an entry ramp at 80 km/h and try to merge with traffic that is going in excess of 110 km/h!? Once the traffic is moving freely, a motorist should be travelling at a speed approaching 120 km/h when they get to the end of the entry ramp, otherwise you have people jamming on/trying to jump into a gap, causing the car behind them to jam on considering their slow speed

seamus

bruachain wrote:

Apart from a basic lack of understanding of the concept of the overtaking lane, M50 drivers for the most park cannot get their heads around the concept of merging.

Most of them will go down an entry ramp at 80 km/h and try to merge with traffic that is going in excess of 110 km/h!? Once the traffic is moving freely, a motorist should be travelling at a speed approaching 120 km/h when they get to the end of the entry ramp, otherwise you have people jamming on/trying to jump into a gap, causing the car behind them to jam on considering their slow speed

Yeah. Every time (except where there's traffic obviously) I merge onto the M50, I always end up at least 200m ahead of the guy who was sitting behind me at the lights. People just can't get the concept of merging at speed into their heads. Then they remark - "Oh, I hate merging onto the motorway. All the other cars are going so fast!". :eek:

Shinto

Tis so true. Many irish people (through lack of motorway experience?) dont know proper motorway behaviour. Stay to the left unless overtaking. Want to know why its dangerous to do otherwise, read this website...

http://www.middlelanemorons.com/script/middle_lane_morons_why.php

Also, if the left lane is busy when others are joining via the slip road, indiate right and move into the right lane for a minute to let them into left lane, then once you're well passed them (you should be going faster than them anyway cos they've proabably just left a roundabout), move into left lane again.

p.s. Its great the the government are building some motorways in Ireland (albeit 10 or 15 years too late), but the new motorways are too dublin oriented. I want to see a big motorway streach from Sligo, down through Mayo, Galway, Shannon Airport, Limerick, and to Cork. The atlantic corridor infrastructure needs to be built now to combat those in "the pale." (no offense to those east of the shannon, but ive no desire to ever go to dublin).

murphaph

Shinto wrote:

I want to see a big motorway streach from Sligo, down through Mayo, Galway, Shannon Airport, Limerick, and to Cork. The atlantic corridor infrastructure needs to be built now to combat those in "the pale." (no offense to those east of the shannon, but ive no desire to ever go to dublin).

Well, if you ever get your dream motorway the only county paying for it will be Cork because the rest of 'em take more in government spending than they generate in taxes. The shortfall is mostly made up in that place you hate-Dublin!

Benster

Shinto wrote:

Tis so true. Many irish people (through lack of motorway experience?) dont know proper motorway behaviour.

I did have that thought in my head while reading this thread earlier, but thought I'd get shouted down for daring to condemn driver education here.

I did my test up North years ago and therefore had to read "Her Majesty's" Highway Code with all it's explanations of just about every road type and junction combination there is in the UK. So motorways were part of the education*. I have never laid eyes on a copy of the Rules of the Road, so I don't know the extent of its coverage of road types. So my question is: How in-depth is the explanation of motorway driving in that material in recent years and would the fact that there is so much bad driving on those roads indicate that whatever coverage there is isn't good enough or taught well enough?

*And I'm not saying "we're better up here", we have our share of head-the-balls too (just not so many ).

B.

seamus

Benster wrote:

How in-depth is the explanation of motorway driving in that material in recent years and would the fact that there is so much bad driving on those roads indicate that whatever coverage there is isn't good enough or taught well enough?

Well you see, that's half of the problem. The Irish Government hasn't seen fit to bother their arses updating the ROTR in 11 years, despite a massive changes on Irish roads in that time. Some sections of the book are completely out of date and irrelevant (speed limits are in MPH) and others are ridiculously short - the section on motorway driving is just 2 pages (iirc).

DubTony

Tonight at abut 8 pm I took the slip road onto the M50 South at Scholarstown Interchange (Firhouse / Knocklyon). As I left the roundabout there was a car about 100 mtrs ahead of me. I accelerated to 100k but had to slow to 70 when I came up behind the car. He / she made the not uncommon "right turn" onto the motorway ... you know, when they actually make a deliberate right turn movement of the steering wheel as if going round a bend ... directly into oncoming traffic. (There was adequate space as the car on the Mway moved to the overtaking lane comfortably)

I stayed on the slip road as he / she joined the motorway and used the rest of the slip road before entering the Mway at 100km/h. The thing is, I actually passed the other car. He / she was completely on the motorway when I "undertook", but to me this was the safest thing to do. The guy in the Golf behind me wasn't hanging around and so I couldn't risk slowing any more to ensure I didn't break any laws.

Was I wrong? Is it ok to "bend the rules" to take what I believed to be a safer course of action?

Benster

Ok, it was early, but what are the chances that driver had a few bevvies on them? I've seen it before, erratic maneouvres (sp?) and slower than normal driving. Either that, or it was an old duffer (law unto themselves).

I'd say you'd have a hard time explaining the move to a guard if you were stopped, but many drivers would probably agree with you.

I'd say there'll be another thread on another board somewhere going "Tonight on the M50 I saw this eejit undertaking this other car! They should be locked up!"

B.