Corporal punishment?

Vangelis

Is it brutal?

How can you justify hitting your children and later tell them that violence against others is wrong?

How to better act as an example for the children instead of beating them?

What forms of corporal punishment is common/accepted/accepted at all in Ireland?

Talliesin

Vangelis wrote:

How can you justify hitting your children and later tell them that violence against others is wrong?

Be a hypocrite.

Vangelis

Right, Talliesin.
I would appreciate more answers though. Anyone?

Attol

There is no way to justify it. It's disgusting how people can hit their children. A parent who hits a child who is unable to fight back is just a bully. People who hit children should not be allowed be parents. It is just sick.

OfflerCrocGod

Vangelis wrote:

Right, Talliesin.
I would appreciate more answers though. Anyone?

Her answer is THE answer. Look up the definition of hypocrite.

Nevyn

Physical chastisements in the form of a light non stinging slap are one thing.
Lashing out in anger and physically assaulting a child is another.

Yes ideally as a parent you should not have to use physical chastisements
(Mental cruelty and emotional blackmail are far more effect and long lasting )
But not all parents are equipped to use other means and skills.
And some children due to thier nature wouldn’t take a parent seriously
And will battle with them until a parent shows the willingness to use
Physical chastisements. Once the child has learned that really there are worse
Options then what are being offered by the parent it need no be used again.

Life isn't ideal and those of us that were hit in anger by our parents have to
Work and try really hard to break that cycle with our own children.
Parents are under all sorts of pressure that many of us don’t realise until
We become parents ourselves.

Iago

Personally I'm for Corporal Punishment, I think that the threat and occasional example of painful consequences for bad or disruptive behaviour is an essential part of development. I would argue that part (certainly not all) of the reason for the decreasing respect and general disgusting behaviour of this generation of tweens and teenagers is down to a lack of corporal punishment in schools and the home.

I went to a christian brother school and if we misbehaved we were punished, punishments ranged from punches to a ruler across the hands, to being lifted out of your chair by the ear, or having your arm squeezed to being hit with a drumstick. There was very little misbehaviour in the class, in addition when you went home the last thing you wanted to see was a bad report from the school or a neighbour coming to your door to complain about your behaviour because woe betide you when your dad got home or your mum decided to take you to task.

I think that corporal punishment breeds a healthy fear of anti-social and disrespectful behaviour, and that other methods of censure such as grounding, curfews, removal of privilages fail to match. Sure I hated being grounded, particularily during the summer months when you could hear everyone playing outside. In the long term though it wasn't the fear of grounding that prevented me acting up but the fear of facing the belt when my deeds caught up with me!!

As I got older, that fear was replaced by a fear of disappointing my parents and dragging their name through the gutter by causing problems and not being respectful, and I believe that my formative years, and a combination of being taught to be respectful and go about things the right way as well as the punishment meted out for bad behaviour were key in making me the person I am today.

My own opinion is that the lack of corporal punishment along with the increasing amount of rubbish and inappropriate television shows that kids watch these days are directly responsible for the increasing numbers of violent and anti-social behaviour being exhibitted by the younger generation in Ireland.

vibe666

Iago wrote:

My own opinion is that the lack of corporal punishment along with the increasing amount of rubbish and inappropriate television shows that kids watch these days are directly responsible for the increasing numbers of violent and anti-social behaviour being exhibitted by the younger generation in Ireland.

\o/ woohoo! couldn't agree more.

there's a big difference between a slapped arse and battering a child, and sometimes its necessary. anyone who can't see the relationship between rising youth crime rates and falling levels of discipline must be blind.

if a child has nothing to fear when they misbehave then they WILL misbehave simply because they can get away with it pretty much scott free.

the fear of punishment needs to be sufficient to deter them from acting up in the first place. If i did something very bad as a child I got a smack from it, so 99% of the time I just didn't do it. if the punishment hadn't been there then I have no doubt, given the borderline criminal nature of my youth I'd have ended up in a shed load more trouble than I did, which I have no doubt would have ended in a long stretch inside.

as it is, I've grown into a well rounded socially conscious individual rather than a thieving scumbag draining society.
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Talliesin

Thaed wrote:

Physical chastisements in the form of a light non stinging slap are one thing.
Lashing out in anger and physically assaulting a child is another.

TBH, I can appreciate the position of someone who lashed out in anger more than someone who conciously delivered the same amount of force to a child.

Though, the teachers who hit me in the latter manner as a child weren't hypocrites - they didn't say violence against another was always wrong.

Vangelis

You confirmed my worries, Iago. Most people who were hit while children agree that hitting children is necessary in debates like this. It's typical. They see nothing wrong with it.

I know a guy who was hit when he was a child and he said there was nothing wrong with it. It worries me because he would probably treat his children the same way(he doesn't have children!).

It is clear to me that a parent has no right to give his child anything else than love. Because the child will one day go out in the world and treat others the way he has been taught to treat others. A drop in the see is followed by many waves, the same goes with human beings.

Anti-social behaviour is not something that can be brought up in this conversation. Anti-social behaviour is usually connected with psychosis and mentally abnormal behaviour, not a child misbehaving.

Furthermore, saying that sowing a fear in the mind of the child of not misbehaving is not at all justifiable. A child should know WHY something is wrong and see OTHERS ACTING upon the principles they want their children to act upon. One cannot make exceptions to hitting others, saying that it is okay when so and so, and not okay when so and so. It is better to leave it completely instead of giving the child a set-up system of rules. When he meets the world, what happens when he discovers that his system does not consists with that of others! It is all or nothing, nothing being the best alternatve.

Corporal punishment is now discusses regarding children. Imagine that you hit an adult, your wife or husband, for misbehaving. That would also be called corporal punishment. Mark the word PUNISHMENT. This doesn't sound right to me. When you hit children, why not your boyfriend/girlfriend or aunt or husband! And it would still be called corporal punishment, which sounds cruel.

If one appreciates that someone is pro-corporal punishment, one appreciates the corporal punishment itself.

Nevyn

Anti-social behaviour is usually connected with psychosis and mentally abnormal behaviour, not a child misbehaving.

I disagree is a child is not toughth respect for others and thier bad behaviour
remains unchecked this will result in anti-socail behaviour.

The 9 year old that gave me the finger and called me a 'Fooking Whooore'
last week is not suffering from psychosis but lack of guidance and parental
supervision and lack of checking his behaviour; rewarding good behaviour and
punishing bad behaviour.

These children know that an adult can not touch them and thier parents
don't care leaving the children to wander the streets for hours.

There are far worse things that can be done to a child via neglect then the
ocassion mild slap when they are 3 to 5 years old.

Vangelis

Does anybody actually think that a professional nanny or a familt therapist would recommend you to hit your children for bad behaviour? Just wondering. I wish we had a family therapist on the forum.

CJhaughey

There is nothing wrong with corporal punishment per se, it is the way it is delivered that is key.
as other posters have written the youth of today and the attitudes that go with it are largely the product of their upbringing, they know that they cannot be punished physically for misdeeds yet think nothing of kicking anothers head in.
I believe that a caning system that they have in other countries would be a good system for young offenders, that or hard physical labour clearing the sides of roads and stuff.
I remember the case a few years back of a young american citizen who damaged some parked cars, he was caned for it and the uproar from the Authorities in the USA was incredible, I bet had the cane been shown earlier he wouldn't have been so enthusiastic with the boot.

Wex1

Thaed wrote:

There are far worse things that can be done to a child via neglect then the
ocassion mild slap when they are 3 to 5 years old.

Totally correct Thaed,

How many people who condem any forms of slapping a child actually have children? I was very rarely slapped as a child and was a fairly disruptive teenager, I knew I didn't have to suffer much consequences, a bit of grounding now and then, but if I broke the curfew, i usually only got another one that I then broke! Now when I got caught smoking at 14 I got a belt of a wet tea towel across the legs, and by God that seemed to work!

Parents really need to distinguish between minor incidents and major incidents and in my opinion slapping for the major ones does work and I have 4 kids.
As far as neglect is concerned, my children despite being no angels, are already concious of anti-social behaviour that they see from their peers and are also aware that this is not cool or acceptable. While from just pure observance the children who are engaging in anti-social behaviour are victims of neglect - parents never bring them to out of school activities, spend all day Sunday in the pub (accompanyed by these under 12s). Now they often times have the latest brand names on their feet and every conceivalbe toy under the universe, but at the same time mammy and daddy don't have much time for them. That's the big danger in modern Ireland, not a few slaps!!!
Sorry for going on and on, but this issue does cause me major concern

Vangelis

A mild slap is okay. As long as it doesn't hurt. In my opinion, chastising children with fear is not the right thing to do. Respect is earned by respect.

Thanks for the post, Wex. It's good to hear from someone with children(I don't know whether any of the other posters have children!).

I should say that I am against the use of painful corporal punishment though. My mom slapped me on my bare bum once which I think was perverse and I have never forgiven her for it. We all have different limits.

Nevyn

Vangelis wrote:

A mild slap is okay. As long as it doesn't hurt. In my opinion, chastising children with fear is not the right thing to do. Respect is earned by respect.

Thanks for the post, Wex. It's good to hear from someone with children(I don't know whether any of the other posters have children!).

Well you are very new to the community that is Boards.ie Vangelis.
I have two children under the age of 10.
Most of the people who post here on the parenting forum have children.

RainyDay

Violence breeds violence. Slapping teaches a child that it's OK to hit someone smaller than you, once you think you have a good enough reason. Fear is no basis for a civilised society.

Cabaal

RainyDay wrote:

Violence breeds violence. Slapping teaches a child that it's OK to hit someone smaller than you, once you think you have a good enough reason. Fear is no basis for a civilised society.

I disagree, it helps a child learn morals good/bad and gives them a reason not to do bad things.

vibe666

RainyDay wrote:

Violence breeds violence. Slapping teaches a child that it's OK to hit someone smaller than you, once you think you have a good enough reason. Fear is no basis for a civilised society.

thats just a sweeping generalisation, and just doesn't fit with what we'rew talking about.

violence begets violence? what's violence?

it's like saying a car is a car, and they're all the same.

there's no comparison between slapping a child for misbehaving and a group of people beating someone to death over nothing is there?

i'd be willing to put a substantial bet down that most of the kids out there roaming the streets at night partaking in anti-social behavior are the same kids that get no discipline at home.

I'm willing to agree that some kids respond well to non-corporal discipline, but the majority do not, and standing them in a corner and telling them how disappointed you are in them is not the solution to a lot of the problems faced when bringing up kids.
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Vangelis

Cabaal wrote:

I disagree, it helps a child learn morals good/bad and gives them a reason not to do bad things.

But you can't keep giving them that reason till they are grown up and get old.
They might make a huge mistake or misbehave in public at the age of 50. What will you do then? Spank them? Puh. The reason is no longer there. The reason they need is a verbal EXPLANATION of why their actions are negative.
You can't keep slapping your children for the rest of their lives.

vibe666, what a suitable name.
How do you define DISCIPLINE?

the_syco

When a teacher fears being bullied by her students. When the teacher has no recourse, as they're "an adult" and should be able to take care of themselves. When the kids know that the only punishment will be to sit still for one hour. When they know they can hit the teacher, but the teacher can't do anything untill they get struck. When the teacher lives in fear of students bigger than them. When the teacher fears the student, and the student fears nothing, as nothing can be done to the student, but the teacher can be jailed.

When this happens, you'll know that kids have all the rights, but the teachers have few. This happens today.

mountainyman

One of the problems with school is that it evolved based on corporal punishment and this is now gone. The model must change.

At any rate a degree of corporal punishment is not a signifigant problem. It may be quite useful for early school age children in terms of getting them to accept authority.

Older than that and we shouldn't pretend it is for the child's benefit as such it should not be used by parents younger than 4 (or perhaps 3) and older than about 9. Assuming that parents want was is best for their children.

I would be like to see corporal punishment models introduced on an experimental basis in Ireland to see if they do in fact work.

Certainly I am unsure what makes them more invasive than a big fine or a short prison sentence.

MountainyMan

Agent Smith

RainyDay wrote:

Violence breeds violence. Slapping teaches a child that it's OK to hit someone smaller than you, once you think you have a good enough reason. Fear is no basis for a civilised society.

Imo, slapping, to an extent is ok,

the idea behind it is that if you do something bold or wrong, there are consequences (sp?).

e.g.
when i was around 7-8 i poured a whole bottle of shampoo down the bath-plug for no reason,

i got slapped for it, and i didnt do it again

Kernel32

Wex1 wrote:

How many people who condem any forms of slapping a child actually have children?

Me for one. I have a pretty active three year old boy and haven't felt the need to raise my hand to him. I have dealt with any bad behaviour in other non-violent ways and it hasn't been a problem.

A couple of points. Someone mentioned kids roaming the streets getting into trouble and how discipline through slapping would have been good for them. I disagree, simple parental involvement and responsibility is what would have been good for them. If a kid has reached a stage of getting into trouble consistently then slapping will only make the problem worse and not better. Someone else made the point that slapping a child is not something that you can use forever. I totally agree with this. You might feel ok slapping your 3 year old, but what about when he or she is 14 years old. At that point a light slap won't work and anything more than that could land you with child abuse charges. By coming up with forms of discipline that you can use as the child grows is a good way to set boundries. Thats my own feeling on the subject anyway.

Wex1

Kernel32 wrote:

Me for one. I have a pretty active three year old boy and haven't felt the need to raise my hand to him. I have dealt with any bad behaviour in other non-violent ways and it hasn't been a problem.

I too have one of those 3 year olds!!! and to be honest he's had only one or two light slaps in his 3 years and nearly 6 months - but he's close to an angel! and I say this by comparing him to his 3 brothers!!! My two year old on the other hand is not an angel and tests me to the limits every day - and he's testing me! He wants to see where the boundaries are and that's normal, obviously at two he doesn't get slapped for pinching his brother - but when he does it for the 4th time with a gleam in his eye after being told and explained to with patience and all those other "non-violent" methods are exhausted - well then he does get a light slap!!! I wouldn't call this violence - he just has to learn a few basic rules as part of a family! Some kids don't need any form of slapping, some do, even within the same family! I don't like people calling a slap violent, some kids do get treated violently but the majority of parents who use a slap here and there don't batter their children and in my experience slapping is useless by the age of 6 or 7, with my 10 year old the greatest threat is that I'll embarrass him in front of his friends by kissing him or telling them baby stories!!!! Far more effective - wish it would work on the two year old!!! My point (eventually) is that this is a kinnda useless debate (however very interesting) cause everyone has their own opinions and consensus is fairly impossilbe!!!

luckat

Several countries have banned all hitting of children:

Sweden (1979)
Finland (1983)
Norway (1987)
Austria (1989)
Cyprus (1994)
Italy (1996)
Denmark (1997)
Latvia (1998)
Croatia (1999)
Bulgaria (2000)
Germany (2000)
Israel (2000)
Iceland (2003)
Ukraine (2004)
Romania (2004)
Portugal (2004)
Hungary (2005)

This is a paper on the effects of corporal punishment - a meta-study of a lot of other research, published in the journal of the American Psychological Association: http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/pdfs/Gershoff-2002.pdf

In Psychology Today, this more accessible article:

http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-2388.html

Spare the rod to spare the child? Corporal punishment remains popular in America, despite associated risks - Parenting - Brief Article
Psychology Today, Sept-Oct, 2002 by Susan Campbell
new

Save a personal copy of this article and quickly find it again with Furl.net. It's free! Save it.

PARENTS WOULD DO WELL TO REFRAIN from using hand or rod to discipline children, according to an analysis of 62 years of research on spanking and other forms of corporal punishment. The study found correlations, but no direct link, between physical discipline and 11 negative behaviors, including increased aggression and delinquent behavior.

The strongest associations with corporal punishment were increased risk of becoming an abuse victim and immediate compliance with parental demands--the only behavior that could be considered a "positive" result of corporal punishment. "The fact that these disparate constructs [abuse and compliance] show the strongest links to corporal punishment underlines the controversy over this practice," states Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, Ph.D., author of the meta-analysis and an associate research scientist at Columbia University's National Center for Children in Poverty.

A growing number of European countries ban corporal punishment, but 94 percent of U.S. parents reportedly spank their kids by the time the youngsters are 4 years old. Gershoff said the practice can be traced to the American colonial belief that obedience to parents teaches children obedience to God--which may explain why spanking today is most prevalent in the Bible Belt.

<snip>

the_syco

luckat wrote:

PARENTS WOULD DO WELL TO REFRAIN from using hand or rod to discipline children

Better tell them how to disipline the child, then, cos thats the only disipline they know, and now they give no disipline, as they can't dish out any of the stuff they only know how to, imho.

Wex1

Are you sure Ireland's not in there too??? I thought it was. Again you're missing the point here luckat, most of us who administer a slap now and then are not HITTING our children. Its more of a punctuation mark.!!...!!!...
I've seen parents slapping their kids for sweet f.all - this is totally ineffective and this i'm sure complies with all your studies, but if a child is not given some boundaries that they just know they shouldn't cross then you are in reality making life very hard for that child - Again I have to stress that every child is different and reacts in different ways, but don't condem it entirely.... and remember us parents have a very tough task as it is and some kids really do need that punctuation mark cause talking, reasoning, etc gets ignored sometimes... How would you deal with a four year old constantly slapping you? A friend of mine never slapped until this happened, she slapped gently but firmly and never ever got slapped again and hasn't slapped since... I'm only saying don't completely throw the baby out with the bath water (Wha'???)(I'ts late maybe I should go to bed!!!) G'nite

Wex1

And by the way the above mentioned compliance to parents wishes is not always the case - with most parents its looking at the child growing up as a responsible and caring human being who knows the difference between right and wrong, I mean biting or pinching another sibling or child is wrong and getting a child to recognise this is hardly an act of compliance to parents wishes.

luckat

How to discipline children - well, mostly it's pretty easy: mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí.

Say, for instance, you want a kid to go to bed in time. One great method is to set up a jar beside the bed, and tell the kid that if he's in bed at eight, he'll get a marble, and five marbles can be swapped for, say, a Yu-Go... whatever those cards are called.

So at seven-thirty you get the kid into the bath, get the toothies washed, the jammies on, into the bed and start the story. Eight o'clock approaches - is he in bed - YES! - he gets a marble in the jar.

Then you tell him that if he's still in the bed and lying down by 8.30, he gets another marble.

(The trick with this is that the kid should be able to earn lots of marbles, especially at first.)

The next night, same thing. When he gets five marbles, count them out very formally, and go to the shop and buy a... whatever they're called.

I know, I know, you're going to say this is bribing. It's not. This is teaching the kid that a particular desired behaviour can *earn* him good things. It's a very valuable lesson. And it gives kids a kind of control that's useful to them.

It's also great for parents, because it changes your viewpoint. Rather than thinking "How can I stop him doing that?", you're thinking "How can I start him doing this?" It gives you a whole new way of looking at your kids.

Wex1

I totally agree with the above, use this kind of "points system" on a weekly basis and I'm totally a believer in routines, etc. I wouldn't slap over a bedtime debacle. I'm talking misbehaviour - cheeky/nasty to people, hurting other children, running out on the road (a slap for this could save their lives) etc.

My kids have cut the heads off all my flowers, broken windows with hurls, flooded the bathroom, turned back on the light and started pillow fights at 11pm, etc (infininte list here) but this doesn't warrant slapping in my book - a shout and a threat fits some of these occasions! But I need them to know whats generally really hurtful to others and what's just an undesirable thing in our house (or worse again - in the neighbours!) My biggest fear is that they grow up with very few friends and not being able to get on with their fellow human beings - when they're adults they can do as they wish - but i have to provide them with a set of social, emotional (intellectual and physical) tools that will let them get to adulthood with as many doors open to them as possible! Parenting is about the whole child and its development - not about isolated incidents of bribing, slapping, etc.... and as a by word - just cause I'm someones mother doesn't mean I stopped being a person with a few needs (feels like it sometimes) - we are only human