Corporal punishment?

RainyDay

agent smith wrote:

Imo, slapping, to an extent is ok,

the idea behind it is that if you do something bold or wrong, there are consequences (sp?).

Is violence the only consequence that you can come up with?

Wex1

He said - slapping "To An Extent is OK" Get that he didn't espouse slapping every day or anything - here we go again with the violence argument ! You can't equate a light slap with the images the word violence conjures!!!! Well I can't! Kids can't go around being disrespectful and downright disruptive - for their own sakes as much as anything. Look - I'm gonna use an example, one I've seen over and over again

Kid doesn't get disciplined by parents, goes to school and he is a pain the teachers ar**. She's only human and starts to get worn down by the child. Classmates start to dislike him for being hurtful and disruptive. By end of junior infants has only the odd friend, usually a bit disruptive too, gives parents an awful time and everyone in neighbour hood is aware that this is a "terrible bold" child. Doesn't get invited to parties or friends houses too often, too much trouble. Is this child happy? not really....

This is n ot extreme example, there's a few kids I wouldn't have near my place though its usually full of kids, parents are sound - kids are over-indulged and let totally rule! My kids don't get on much with them either at the older stages... I dunno, like i said a slap works for some kids and others obviously are totally "damaged" by a slap (as oppossed to being violently treated)

RainyDay

Wex1 wrote:

Kid doesn't get disciplined by parents, goes to school and he is a pain the teachers ar**. She's only human and starts to get worn down by the child.

Again, you seem to equate discipline with violence. It is quite possible to discipline kids without hitting them.

If it's OK to hit kids, why don't we make it OK to hit adults too? If I get a bad meal in a restaurant, can I give the waitress a firm slap on the cheek - not violent of course, just calm, controlled discipline - as a 'punctuation mark' if you like? Or if one of my team members screw up in work, can I just kick his ass as a 'punctuation mark'. Why is it OK to hit kids, but not adults?

Nevyn

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Wex1

Thaed's right, I'm not saying anymore on this one, I slap now and then - that's it, sín, sín! Maybe I'm right, or maybe I'm wrong but it really is all our own individual decisions to make as adults - that's what supposedly differentiates us a bit from the kids - the decisions we have to make!

Attol

If you want your kids to resent you and to never have a real relationship with them then feel free to hit them. It is terrible parenting and damages any bonds between parent and child. I don't see how you could possibly share anything with someone who can be as disrespectful as that to you.

Vangelis

Remember everyone that parents are not 100% responsible for the development of the child. Genes too play a HUGE role, in regards to recent research genes are more significant than up-bringing.

I agree that some kind of reward for good behaviour is a good idea.
If anyone has watched "Nanny 911" they will know that these professional nannies tell the parents not to hit their children. They recommend rewards and praise. I trust them on that.

RainyDay

Vangelis wrote:

Remember everyone that parents are not 100% responsible for the development of the child. Genes too play a HUGE role, in regards to recent research genes are more significant than up-bringing.

Interesting - Got any specific links you could refer to?

Wex1 wrote:

Thaed's right, I'm not saying anymore on this one, I slap now and then - that's it, sín, sín! Maybe I'm right, or maybe I'm wrong but it really is all our own individual decisions to make as adults - that's what supposedly differentiates us a bit from the kids - the decisions we have to make!

I'm not out to get you, and I'm not saying that you're a bad parent. Let he who is without sin etc etc etc. But we can all learn from each other by civilised discussion of this issue.

I'm just wondering if you considered non-violent forms of discipline as an alternative?

the_syco

Remember that the anti-slapping law was not designed to stop the light slap, but to totally stop abuse, as before there was no law, and what one person would call a light slap, another would call a belt with a belt.

DublinWriter

Vangelis wrote:

The reason they need is a verbal EXPLANATION of why their actions are negative.

Have you ever tried that technique with a toddler who keeps trying to put his/her hand in the fire?

...and before you shoot off a "you should have a fire guard" reply, let me broaden it by saying that the question is more hypothetical.

There's always people whinging about the state of kids today. You can go back into the mists of civilisation and find people were saying the same thing.

What is new however, is that the current generation of youth are the first to grow up without the threat of serious and unpleasant consequences for anti-social or misbehavioural actions.

Draw your own conclusions.

luckat

If a toddler *continually* tried to put his hand in the fire I'd bring him straight to the doctor; the child might be autistic. Otherwise, this is unlikely.

The only possible reason for a kid to keep doing something like this (apart from serious damage such as autism) would be if this gets him lots of attention that he can't get another way.

And DublinWriter, the current generation is actually pretty nice.

The trouble at the moment is that it's tough for parents, because while they've sensibly seen that slapping and hitting is not an adequate way of teaching children to live in a world where negotiation is the most important skill, they haven't had much training in the alternative way of bringing children up, which involves a lot of gentle attention.

Vangelis

Yah, agree!

DublinWriter

luckat wrote:

If a toddler *continually* tried to put his hand in the fire I'd bring him straight to the doctor; the child might be autistic. Otherwise, this is unlikely.

I didn't mean *continually*

luckat wrote:

And DublinWriter, the current generation is actually pretty nice.

I'll take your word for that.

RainyDay

DublinWriter wrote:

There's always people whinging about the state of kids today. You can go back into the mists of civilisation and find people were saying the same thing.

What is new however, is that the current generation of youth are the first to grow up without the threat of serious and unpleasant consequences for anti-social or misbehavioural actions.

Draw your own conclusions.

To draw any conclusion from this broad generalisation would be foolhardy. You could easily (as this thread proves) state that this generation are NOT growing without threats, as many parents still believe in violence. You could state that this generation are the first to grow up with outsourced childcare from 10 weeks old - draw your own conclusions. You could state that this generation are the first to grow up with XBox & PS2 - draw your own conclusions.

There would need to be very solid research before we could draw any conclusion - otherwise we're just guessing.

luckat

But getting back to the question of corporal punishment. Thing is, it's not just a question of slap or don't-slap. It's a question of a completely different way of raising a child. And no, this isn't some touchy-feely 21st-century thing; raising children without violence is the norm in many societies.

One thing people who are new to this concept have done wrong is random praising of children - the child makes a try at something and gets wonderful praise, the child succeeds and gets the same level of praise. This isn't awfully helpful. What works is *instant* reinforcement, and reinforcement of *success* - though that success may at first be a very small one.

I've seen more kids confused and disturbed, for instance, by being praised for things over which they have no control ("Isn't she pretty?"), rather than for things over which they have good control ("Isn't she an excellent tidier-upper?) or for things which *they have just achieved* ("Good kid! You picked up *five* toys!") or improvements which they have now achieved ("Excellent! You picked up *eight* toys!")

In general, with kids, honey works better than vinegar. I was watching a little boy swimming with his grandmother the other day. He was having a wonderful time, but it was his first time in the sea, and he was beginning to get cold. His grandmother told him it was time for him to go in and get dressed, and he was objecting strongly to the idea. A standoff was developing that was going to be a row, and end with unpleasant memories.

A woman on the quay walked over and called out: "He's a very good swimmer! Could he swim to the steps? Could you swim to the steps? Oh, that's very good!" - and the kid had a wonderful time showing off how well he could swim in to the shore. He didn't get out for a couple minutes more, but the situation had been defused, and in fact he got out quite happily a minute later. What was about to become a big tantrum became fun.

From a society that was very harsh on children, we're having to learn these skills of diplomacy again. It's not easy.

Wex1

RainyDay wrote:

I'm not out to get you, and I'm not saying that you're a bad parent. Let he who is without sin etc etc etc. But we can all learn from each other by civilised discussion of this issue.

I'm just wondering if you considered non-violent forms of discipline as an alternative?

I'm sorry you seem to think that I slap every time the opportunity arises (and you can't be out to get me on an internet bulletin board!). I'm not violent, my kids don't think I'm violent, their father doesn't think I'm violent (he got belted as a kid and as a result you'll be pleased to hear doesn't lay a hand on them) and nobody else thinks I'm violent. But I am the big bad wolf in the family! I regulary use non-slap forms of discipline, they work too (go back to some of my posts re disciplining a 10 year old), but sometimes..... and i only mean sometimes..... I slap!
Finally - I know i'm not a bad parent, my kids are my friends - didn't think for one min you were insinuating that - it is only a discussion...

Vangelis

luckat wrote:

But getting back to the question of corporal punishment. Thing is, it's not just a question of slap or don't-slap. It's a question of a completely different way of raising a child. And no, this isn't some touchy-feely 21st-century thing; raising children without violence is the norm in many societies.

One thing people who are new to this concept have done wrong is random praising of children - the child makes a try at something and gets wonderful praise, the child succeeds and gets the same level of praise. This isn't awfully helpful. What works is *instant* reinforcement, and reinforcement of *success* - though that success may at first be a very small one.

That's blind stupidity. I know that this happens, but this is the parents' fault. It's the parents that have to change.

I've seen more kids confused and disturbed, for instance, by being praised for things over which they have no control ("Isn't she pretty?"), rather than for things over which they have good control ("Isn't she an excellent tidier-upper?) or for things which *they have just achieved* ("Good kid! You picked up *five* toys!") or improvements which they have now achieved ("Excellent! You picked up *eight* toys!")

I don't get the point. Are you saying that giving the child a compliment such as "Isn't she pretty?" is wrong?

In general, with kids, honey works better than vinegar. I was watching a little boy swimming with his grandmother the other day. He was having a wonderful time, but it was his first time in the sea, and he was beginning to get cold. His grandmother told him it was time for him to go in and get dressed, and he was objecting strongly to the idea. A standoff was developing that was going to be a row, and end with unpleasant memories.

A woman on the quay walked over and called out: "He's a very good swimmer! Could he swim to the steps? Could you swim to the steps? Oh, that's very good!" - and the kid had a wonderful time showing off how well he could swim in to the shore. He didn't get out for a couple minutes more, but the situation had been defused, and in fact he got out quite happily a minute later. What was about to become a big tantrum became fun.

From a society that was very harsh on children, we're having to learn these skills of diplomacy again. It's not easy.

Good example! Isn't he a good poster? *tickle tickle* Nah, just kiddin'

Nevyn

I have issues with constantly someone constantly telling a child she is pretty.
Puts a lot pf pressure on her to be and stay pretty as she grows up.
I don't tell my daughter she is pretty or cute, I will her she looks lovely, and
that she is smart and clever.

I some one I grew up with was constantly called pretty she was the only girl in the family and it destroyed her self image and worth when she was in a car
accident and ended up with scaring on her face as she was no longer pretty.

Being pretty or cute is a quirk of genes and age,
I think that fostering and encouraging other skills and talents is more important
in our kids then being pretty.

RainyDay

Wex1 wrote:

I'm sorry you seem to think that I slap every time the opportunity arises (and you can't be out to get me on an internet bulletin board!).

I didn't say that you slap every time, though I can see how you could have construed this from my question. But the question still stands - on those rare occasions that you do slap, what does it do for you that a non-violent intervention would not do?

luckat

Vangelis, no harm in saying to a child that she looks well, she looks pretty, he looks good, etc.

But if you want to build a child's sense of self-worth, and to train her muscles to be a powerful, strong, good, achieving person, then you must praise the child's *achievements*.

They don't have to be huge achievements, especially at first - but you can praise, for instance, making her bed, drying six dishes and putting them away.... you get the idea.

As the child's abilities grow, you'll be praising bigger things. You praise a three-year-old who says "thank you" nicely. But if you praise a six-year-old for that, he'll give you a filthy look, because you're patronising him - he's well able to say thanks now!

RainyDay

Thaedydal wrote:

I have issues with constantly someone constantly telling a child she is pretty.
Puts a lot pf pressure on her to be and stay pretty as she grows up.
I don't tell my daughter she is pretty or cute, I will her she looks lovely, and
that she is smart and clever.

I some one I grew up with was constantly called pretty she was the only girl in the family and it destroyed her self image and worth when she was in a car
accident and ended up with scaring on her face as she was no longer pretty.

Being pretty or cute is a quirk of genes and age,
I think that fostering and encouraging other skills and talents is more important
in our kids then being pretty.

I don't think this logic stands up. Following your logic, we should never praise a child for being clever, in case they get dementia. We should never praise a child for playing football, in case they lose a leg etc etc. I wouldn't over-emphasise praise around looks, but it is certainly one of many areas where a parent can develop self-confidence in a child with warm, measured praise.

Talliesin

People do some pretty messed up stuff trying to stay/become "pretty" though.

Vangelis

Agree luckat!

I just got the impression that Thaedydal overreacted to my question. No offense to you Thaedydal. We all have our experiences.

My mother has constantly told me that I am pretty(she still does!). And it did not break me down because she did not expect me to look pretty. We are all different and take things differently. That's why it is so difficult raising children: There is no manual for it!

Talliesin

Vangelis wrote:

There is no manual for it!

Or rather there is, but they all disagree with each other.

(And if that Dr. Ferber nutter came within 20 feet of my kids I'd break both his kneecaps - see, I'm from the opposite side of the paradox, I don't believe in corporal punishment but I don't believe violence is always wrong either).

Wex1

You know that since I started reading/replying to this thread I've become more concious of my reactions to bad behaviour and indeed to praising re looks, though this one never really occured to me much before and is not something i overly indulge in.
I must admit, I am a lot more concious and when the two year old persisted in pinching the lady beside us at a football match today, i totally restrained myself, talked, pulled him away, tried distraction, bribary, etc. ..... And at the end of it I overheard her say to her daughter that he was a very bold child and his mother couldn't control him....... Lovely!!!!!!!!!! That would you believe is my first time hearing that about one of my kids in 10 and a half years of motherhood.... Will this be better for him in the long run, only asking, not sure of the answer

Vangelis

Wex1 wrote:

You know that since I started reading/replying to this thread I've become more concious of my reactions to bad behaviour and indeed to praising re looks, though this one never really occured to me much before and is not something i overly indulge in.
I must admit, I am a lot more concious and when the two year old persisted in pinching the lady beside us at a football match today, i totally restrained myself, talked, pulled him away, tried distraction, bribary, etc. ..... And at the end of it I overheard her say to her daughter that he was a very bold child and his mother couldn't control him....... Lovely!!!!!!!!!! That would you believe is my first time hearing that about one of my kids in 10 and a half years of motherhood.... Will this be better for him in the long run, only asking, not sure of the answer

What do you want to do about it?

luckat

Vangelis has a good point - the thing is to plan ahead. If your child is doing such a thing, what's the right thing to do? Take the child home? Don't bring it to matches any more?

Nevyn

And so the two year old learns that if he is bored or not getting his way and wants away from where he is all he has do is pinch someone or throw a strop
and he wins.

Part of teaching and rearing our kids it teaching them how to behave out in
public and at events as a football match.
Yes the two year old is a little young and sounds like he got bored
but you can't stay at home with your kids forever you do them a diservice
if you do that.

I took my 7 year old into town today, he was promised a milk shake and a
trip to the dead zoo ( aka natural history musem ) but he also had to come to
the national gallery and look at pictures.

Yes he got bored but that does not excuse a whole range of stropy behaviour
which was all aimed and upseting me or freaking me out so I would either
leave or make a sence correcting him and then leave due to embrassment.

Guess what he didn't win.
throwing a limited strop at home is permissible, ill mannered behaviour of any sort in public is not.

If we do not take our children out and teach them how to conduct themsleves in public in a varity of circumstances we do them a diservice.

Wex1 if your doing your utmost for your child then quiet frankly sod anyone
who dares open thier gob to critises.

luckat

It's kind of a tough one.

A two-year-old who's pinching a stranger is doing it for a reason - but what's the reason? Is it to do with the stranger, or is he trying to get a rise out of his mother?

I'm still wondering what's the best thing to do in this particular circumstance. One thing is to swap seats with the child, hold his hands, and so on.

But I don't know that bringing a child out of a situation where he's misbehaving means that he's won any contest that he may be imagining between himself and his parent. It might just be taking him away where he's not going to get lots of attention.

Kind of sad, though, that you don't get criticised if you give your kid a slap, but you do if you don't slap the kid!

Vangelis

luckat wrote:

Kind of sad, though, that you don't get criticised if you give your kid a slap, but you do if you don't slap the kid!

People have different manuals for raising their kids. If you don't raise your child in accordance with how another parent would(or a non-parent), you get criticised.

One thing though is that a parent should think of the best for one's child. That way, a lot of good is secured.