Is Northern Ireland a lost cause?

rsynnott

zuma wrote:

The border with N.Ireland is 360 km.
Israel are currently building a 600 km long wall against the West Bank.

So it is possible....but who will pay for it???

An Operation Ploughshare solution would work either.

DublinWriter

murphaph wrote:

Thankfully the closeness of Northern Ireland means that people here are well aware of the cost of maintaining the kip.

I agree re the cost, but I don't agree about the fact that people here are aware of it.

Most people who want a 32-county Republic are totally ignorant to the economic realities of such an entity.

ROI : Pop 4 millon, Garda strength 12,500
NI : Pop 1 million, PSNI stength 18,000, Army presence 8,000

Of course the old arguement goes that if a 32-county Republic ever happened, then there would be 'peace in the valley' and such high levels of policing in NI wouldn't be required. However, I think the recent events in Belfast pour cold-water over that notion.

Even if you take policing requirements out of the equation, NI as a region isn't that productive and consitutes a net drain on the UK economy in terms of the high(er) levels of education, social welfare, healthcare and transport resources provided in NI by the British Government.

There are more important things than pounds, shillings and pence though. The end of partition, or at least the end of civil war on this island, is something that some might feel should not be subjected to a cost benefit analysis.

murphaph

Deleted User wrote:

The end of partition, or at least the end of civil war on this island, is something that some might feel should not be subjected to a cost benefit analysis.

Cost: €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€
Benefit: 0

How's that?

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

Benefit: 0

????

You honestly think the end of a civil war that cost thousands of lives is of no real use whatsoever? I personally wouldn't give a hoot about something like VAT on shoes if I thought the country could achieve reunification. That doesn't make you wrong of course, just that not everyone may share your sense of priorities.

gandalf

Until the North has matured enough to live peacefully amoung themselves there is no way they should be let near this side.

I think DublinWriter has made a very important point, NI's economy depends heavilly on handouts from the UK Government. It is in the interest of too many people up there to maintain the status quo (mainly on the Unionist side). If they hold Belfast to ransom for 4 days because they cannot march 100 metres you can imagine the anarchy that these "loyal" subjects will reek if reunification was on the books.

Until people's attitudes are changed there will be no reunification and that friends is generations away. Anyone who thinks once the Chuckies hit 51% that this will magically happen is deluding themselves. You talk about ending civil wars reunification could trigger one that has the potential to be far more vicious than the one we have seen previously on the island.

murphaph

Deleted User wrote:

????

You honestly think the end of a civil war that cost thousands of lives is of no real use whatsoever?

You're equating a unified Ireland with a peaceful one. That's the mistake-the one doesn't follow the other, probably the opposite in fact. My cost/benefit analysis (attempt at humour :rolleyes: ) was based on a united Ireland, not an end to the conflict.

Deleted User wrote:

I personally wouldn't give a hoot about something like VAT on shoes if I thought the country could achieve reunification. That doesn't make you wrong of course, just that not everyone may share your sense of priorities.

Your opinion on costs tell the real story here. You couldn't care less how damaging unification would be to our economy or how costly it is on a personal level to many who can ill-afford such increases in already exorbitant stealth taxes, so long as you have your unification, to hell with everyone else.

cal29

DublinWriter wrote:

I agree re the cost, but I don't agree about the fact that people here are aware of it.

Most people who want a 32-county Republic are totally ignorant to the economic realities of such an entity.

ROI : Pop 4 millon, Garda strength 12,500
NI : Pop 1 million, PSNI stength 18,000, Army presence 8,000

Of course the old arguement goes that if a 32-county Republic ever happened, then there would be 'peace in the valley' and such high levels of policing in NI wouldn't be required. However, I think the recent events in Belfast pour cold-water over that notion.

Even if you take policing requirements out of the equation, NI as a region isn't that productive and consitutes a net drain on the UK economy in terms of the high(er) levels of education, social welfare, healthcare and transport resources provided in NI by the British Government.

Perhaps you might like to tell the truth and help conquer the ignorance that you percieve

The PSNI does not have 18000 members even the RUC at the height of the troubles only had 8500 members and a further 4500 reservists

at the moment the PSNI have about 7300 officers and about 2500 full time and part time reservists that is less than 10000 in total


Now considering your exageration of the police numbers I think it pours cold water on the rest of your arguement

zuma

cal29 wrote:

Perhaps you might like to tell the truth and help conquer the ignorance that you percieve

The PSNI does not have 18000 members even the RUC at the height of the troubles only had 8500 members and a further 4500 reservists

at the moment the PSNI have about 7300 officers and about 2500 full time and part time reservists that is less than 10000 in total


Now considering your exageration of the police numbers I think it pours cold water on the rest of your arguement

The population of Northern Ireland is also around 1.7million...but to say that just because PSNI strength and the population of the place were misinterpreted that the whole argument is incorrect is ludricious!!!

Put simply....for the people of Northern Ireland to vote to join Ireland would be incredibly stupid from a social/economic view as there is no way in hell they will continue to enjoy massive government handout like they currently do with the British government!!!
Their economy is a basket case when compared to Irelands as its still very much in readiness for the return of civil war...not to mention the horrible bittereness felt between those loyal to the United Kingdom and those loyal to the idea of a United Ireland!!!

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

Your opinion on costs tell the real story here. You couldn't care less how damaging unification would be to our economy or how costly it is on a personal level to many who can ill-afford such increases in already exorbitant stealth taxes, so long as you have your unification, to hell with everyone else.

Or, another way of looking at it is that you opinion on costs tells the real story here. You couldn't care less what damage the civil war has done to people on this island, the lives it has wrecked, how costly it has been on a personal level for so many families, so long as you have a few extra pennies in your pocket, to hell with them...

Btw, I don't really think that's your opinion, I'm just saying everything can be looked at in different ways. I will reiterate that clearly we prioritise things differently, but that doesn't make either of us more correct. But if I remember his line about fumbling in the greasy till well enough, I can comfort myself in the knowledge that I am not the first who may have despaired at how glorious ideals like nationalism have waned and materialism prospered and WB got there long before me...

murphaph

Deleted User wrote:

You couldn't care less what damage the civil war has done to people on this island, the lives it has wrecked, how costly it has been on a personal level for so many families, so long as you have a few extra pennies in your pocket, to hell with them...

I said it before but clearly you missed it: I do not equate the unification of Ireland with the end to the conflict!!!!

The conflict's ending is not dependent on unification of Ireland so please don't insinuate that I want to see a continuation of the conflict because I don't see any benefit in unification.

cal29

zuma wrote:

The population of Northern Ireland is also around 1.7million...but to say that just because PSNI strength and the population of the place were misinterpreted that the whole argument is incorrect is ludricious!!!!!!

If the poster can be so wrong on those 2 points where he nearly doubles the numbers of police and near halfs the population then the rest of his arguement since he had based it on that comes into question

zuma wrote:

Put simply....for the people of Northern Ireland to vote to join Ireland would be incredibly stupid from a social/economic view as there is no way in hell they will continue to enjoy massive government handout like they currently do with the British government!!!
Their economy is a basket case when compared to Irelands as its still very much in readiness for the return of civil war...not to mention the horrible bittereness felt between those loyal to the United Kingdom and those loyal to the idea of a United Ireland!!!

And the reason it is a basket case is because of the conflict if the conflict can be resolved there is no reason why a 32 county Ireland could not thrive at least as much if not more than a 26 county state

Already there has been massive improvements in the economy of the 6 counties in the last 10 years

Of course you are presuming that the British will continue to put money into the 6 counties indefinitely




Now can someone link to some definitive proof of the 8 to 1 claim as Iam starting to have serious doubts especially in lightof the other claims regarding police numbers etc that were put forward here

Cronus333

Does anyone honestly think that the situation will change in the short term? Or even in the long term? After a while it all just washes over you and loses all meaning, like Israel or Iraq. I hate having to say that about horrific occurances but it's true....

DublinWriter

murphaph wrote:

You're equating a unified Ireland with a peaceful one.

Exactly! Does he think that 600,000+ loyalists will suddenly start waving tricolours go "oh jaysus, sure didn't we have it wrong all along!".

It's what I called the 'dewey eyed myth" of Republicanism that once a 32-county occurs then rainbows will suddenly appear.

Battlesnake

From what I've heard, the reason of all this kicked off is routed in the talks with the parades commission before the actual march a week ago. The people involved were told to go softly softly, talk nice and you'll get what you want. They did this and what happened, they were told no and subsequently threw all their toys out of the pram. They still see the route as their territory because once - it was. Obviously you all know about the intimidation tactics/violence that forced a lot of people to move from their homes. The prods still angry decades on about being turfed out, the catholics adamant that it was their land in the first place and how dare anyone else set up home. They're now all mad because they see being denied to march down a road, which they've marched down for years, as an infringement of their civil rights, if they let this happen, then what else will be taken away?

The secondary catalyst to the recent nightmare was the reaction the authorities/government/politicians had to the riots. There was much more of a fuss made over it than when the 'other side' were out doing the same thing. This then translated to be unfair. A lot of those interviewed are coming up with this statement 'the nationalists do it and they get what they want, so why shouldn't we?' A statement which I totally disagree with by the way - I think it's appalling that it should happen at all from either side of the community.

Murphaph - no amount of work can rectify the defects in these people's brains.

Laguna - It's the mentality of the people who live there

In response to these views, I can only say that CJhaughey speaks the truth.

Despite the graphic TV streams most of NI is composed of normal people, just like you or me. You cannot judge a whole province on the actions of a few knuckle draggers

Also Laguna as a PSNI officer said to me last Saturday night - "They don't care, sure it's not even about religion anymore is it?"

Last Saturday when everything kicked off I'd enjoyed a lovely meal and was heading home at about 8:30pm. Earlier mentioned in the thread was the baby that got injured, their car went up the road after us and ignored me screaming through the window for them not to drive up there. Approaching the bottom of Fortwilliam park nothing seemed amiss except that the Shore road was closed off with a landrover parked in front of the tape. Nothing particularly out of the ordinary when you've lived here all your life. Still we were anxious to get home as we'd realised that things could be more serious than anticipated. 200yards up and a bunch of fellas, 3-5 of them, jumped out - the usual knacker tash and attire. The car that went up before us had the windscreen smashed, luckily we had the locks down and they managed to batter and bruise the car - not us. Reversed down the road to get away. Police directed us to the station, but we were pretty much on our own, gave a statement and that was it. The force were completely overstretched and it was obvious that communication/knowledge of what was going on where was poor. So here I am a protestant being attacked by protestants, religion really isn't the issue.

Mike65 - The kids are out there not because they get a thrill, but because they are told to be out there by men high up in paramilitary organisations. They go out and do the dirty work because it's the duty they've been given or because they're too afraid to say no. You might think the days of paramilitary men calling round doors on boys 16th birthday are gone, but I can assure you they aren't. An old bf of mine had to leave home, as have a lot of other fellas fled the country to avoid being caught up in it.

Also
inside a majority of Northern Irish people there's a
true stone cold distain for "the other tribe".

Rubbish. I grew up in a very sheltered environment, went to a prep school and wasn't short of a penny or two. Then when I was thrown into (not literally!) a very mixed school with all religions and classes, I only wanted to be friendly with everyone. I got involved with a group of, well to be blunt, lower class catholics. I was all embracing of them and their culture (which was insanely alien to me, considering they're only 5 mins drive away). Then I got a culture shock, the first was an IRA man who targeted me specifically because I was protestant and 13/14. Who raped me, continued to abuse me for 3 months, held a gun to my head and of course the police can't do shag all for me because of his associates and what they would do to me and my family if I took him to court. Then my supposed friends assaulted me, again sectarian related. Despite all this I have not got cold disdain for 'the other tribe' I'm just very wary and cautious now, because to some members of the other community I'll always be a second class citizen and not respected/protected by the chuckies. I'm sure similar things and thoughts would be echoed by members of the catholic community, however I can only speak from my own experience, though I've heard some nightmares that've happened to catholic girls. It's a shame the amount of other crimes that are covered up by the broad title of IRA/UDA/Sectarianism.

Laguna - Why do they cling to the Crown like this?

For the same reason that you cling to being Irish, your job, the type of music you like - because it's part of who you are, how would you feel being a non-identity, a non-person?

What did Britain ever do for them?

Provided them with social security, nhs, a figure head, being part of the uk, jobs coming in etc etc

Yes Britain probably would be well rid of the place, but it's not like Ireland could deal with it and the first time the nationalists have to cough up £80 to go to the doc they might have second thoughts.


Murphaph - 'People' who throw blast bombs at polce officers just doing their job and then attempting to murder same officers with gunfire are defective. They are scum and should be eliminated from society. This kind of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else in the UK or in Ireland for that matter. That's why I reckon NI is a lost cause.

Now, now we're getting into ethnic cleansing territory here. Yes the people doing this are fcuked up, yes they are scum, but there are people like that all over the world, just maybe not so many within such close proximity to one another as to create such chaos. I do however agree that it wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else in the UK/Ireland. Watching the tv the other day my Mum shouted "Aye you think, ach it's just Northern Ireland at it again, it'll all blow over, leave them to it. Just you celebrate with your bloody cricket while our country's falling apart!" Things are a mess over here and to some extent I feel a bit abandoned by the government, there def aren't enough police for one thing. But what are they to do? At this stage I've had enough, most people I know are leaving and won't be back, as is the case for myself. Also I agree that the two communities have to come together, any suggestions as to how to do that? It's nuts there's parts of Belfast that are more Irish than Ireland and parts that are more British than Britain. . .where do you go from those two extremes?

Jank - The North is trying to move on, well at least the nationalists are.

It's good that you're optimistic, also remember the intelligence behind the IRA they're very good at planning and keeping things going behind the scenes. They'll make their move eventually when all's good and ready. The Loyalists are a shambles, in prison they pump iron, whereas the IRA pump brawn. There's a lot that never reaches the newspapers.

Finally, NI is a productive place with great potential for progression. I seriously doubt that the troubles will die a death anytime soon, well at least until a number of people pop their clogs. . . .roll on 50 yrs. I'm saddened that it won't be a place where I'll be bringing up my kids as afterall it is my home and it isn't all bad. The majority of people here just want a normal life, where you don't have to be shut indoors at 4pm in the afternoon. Going absolutely stir crazy atm!!!

oscarBravo

Battlesnake wrote:

Laguna - Why do they cling to the Crown like this?

For the same reason that you cling to being Irish, your job, the type of music you like - because it's part of who you are, how would you feel being a non-identity, a non-person?

I've never fully understood this attitude. I'm Irish, but that's not who I am; merely a part of what I am. It's not even necessarily the most important part of what I am. Equally, what I do for a living is just another part of the utterly unique tapestry that is me, as is my taste in music and a million other subtle variables.

Granted, other people may not feel the same way. It's obvious that a lot of people feel the need to define who they are by identifying with others - in fact, this is a key aspect of adolescence. More disturbing is the need some people have to define themselves by their difference from others - I remember a trailer for the old TV show Auf Wiedersehen, Pet that concluded: "...at least we're not German."

ProddyGirl

murphaph wrote:

Just watching BBC news this evening. The PSNI put 2 of their landrovers on display, resplendant in bullet holes. One of the windows had 2 bullet marks and a police inspector had been sitting behind it. This was attempted murder. It's been 11 years since the first ceasefires, and now this, another return to the bad old days. I think NI is fcuked-permanently and that no amount of work can rectify the defects in these people's brains.

I am from the Shankill Road. this is certainly nothing new from what i see if its not the RC's thens its the Prods. All in All if its not one side its the other . Im hoping i enjoy my stay on yer Boards and with in a day or two ill have a "acrossthedivide " board up on my own site,http://www.proddygirl.co.uk
every one will be welcome it will be up to the faiths involved what the topics are. My Web Site is a personal Web Site involving things that have redirected my life, some might think "oh aye another hun" but its what i believe.
Oh aye i dont support the Gers im a Jambo and have been for 20+ years

Mick86

murphaph wrote:

Is Northern Ireland a lost cause

Pretty Much. Anybody read The Charm School by Nelson De Mille. I recommend the same resolution to a sticky mess.

Berns

Livin up here in the North but aint any trouble down my area atm. Was a Parade other week down the street, seen in paper that SF had organised a protest but everything was peaceful, most that happened was some drunk orange girl chucked a can or bottle at the nationalist crowd, but it was short & something was thrown back but it was also thrown short.

Comparing recent news reports of UK police shooting to kill in London, Police shooting looters in USA, then PSNI usin "Impact Rounds" & Water Cannons on mass riots with Petrol bombs,blast bombs & live rounds bein fired at them....ya wonder why they keep riotin with the police doin sweet fa. Need zero tolerance once gets so bad as it is out of control. Then ya hear unionists goin on about "Police Brutality"......sorry but if get shot at & petrol bombs thrown at ya..... are ya ment to walk up & say, "here lad, cut that out now" somehow dont think would work without gettin a beatin.

Few people that know saying that they discraced to be classed as a prod with all the trouble that their guys are causing. Heard on news tonight that a couple of Investors from USA were ment to come over today till Northern Ireland but with the recent rioting that they have pulled out :mad:

Anyhow, dunno how many would agree with this idea, but if the IRA hadn't decommissioned then it might have been a option. If UK & Republic just pulled out & let civil war break out to get it sorted once & for all. No state fundin so some sort of government would have to be built from scratch etc. Prob now is with the main republican paramilitarys disarmin, & dont think the dissidents are that well organised. Wouldnt really be a fair fight. UN or Nato coulda moved in after a while till try restore calm.

Anyhow, thats my lil Contribution

DublinWriter

ProddyGirl wrote:

Im hoping i enjoy my stay on yer Boards and with in a day or two ill have a "acrossthedivide " board up on my own site,http://www.proddygirl.co.uk
every one will be welcome it will be up to the faiths involved what the topics are.

I hope it won't end up like the PUP's board - expect lots of muppets from all sides making threats against each other.

biko

Berns wrote:

Comparing recent news reports of UK police shooting to kill in London, Police shooting looters in USA, then PSNI usin "Impact Rounds" & Water Cannons on mass riots with Petrol bombs,blast bombs & live rounds bein fired at them....ya wonder why they keep riotin with the police doin sweet fa. Need zero tolerance once gets so bad as it is out of control. Then ya hear unionists goin on about "Police Brutality"......sorry but if get shot at & petrol bombs thrown at ya..... are ya ment to walk up & say, "here lad, cut that out now" somehow dont think would work without gettin a beatin.

115 shots were fired at police and 146 blast bombs thrown. Some of the blast bombs were made from fireworks covered with nails and other shrapnel. Police fired six live rounds at crowds, along with 216 plastic baton rounds. BA also fired live rounds and plastic baton rounds, although no exact figures had been released by the military. Amazingly this ad is on the same page.

Irjudge1

Yes the troubles will end in the North but probably not anytime soon. What is happening now is only natural. Part of the unionist population feel nervous about the developing strength of Sinn Fein both North and South of the Border. (I feel nervous about the developing Strength of Sinn Fein, God help us if there is a serious economic downturn.)

We can expect sometime in the future should a united Ireland come about that there will be a terrorist campaign south of the border by loyalist paramilitaries whose numbers will no doubt swell, or all out war maybe. History tells us this is what happens when one large element of the population of a country wants something different from the other.

But hey! who knows maybe Peter Robinson and Ian Jnr et al will go to a U2 concert and swell with pride with the thought of their countrymen conquering the world in the best of british tradition.

So who's going to change the inevitable?

I think we in the South need to stop referring to our friends in the North as some sort of nation of psychopaths. We are only separated by our recent history. Many of us have friends and family in the North and we need to stop talking about walls along the border, pushing the province away etc.

My declared interest is nothing more than studying in the north for two years which I enjoyed immensely. The girls up there even have boobies you know! They have chippers, nightclubs, football teams (who can beat england. yeah), two ice rinks which are even bigger than dolphins barn was,
trees, bushes, rivers, clouds, taxes, taxi's, churches (maybe too many), pubs (maybe too few) all the usual stuff.

If the country were united in some shape or form anybody who believes that the north would be a weight around our soft southern necks is sadly mistaken.

Maskhadov

If the country were united in some shape or form anybody who believes that the north would be a weight around our soft southern necks is sadly mistaken.

I dont want to drag the discussion down, but can you prove that point ? Personally Im not sure if things would be so rosey with a 32 county republic

DublinWriter

Irjudge1 wrote:

If the country were united in some shape or form anybody who believes that the north would be a weight around our soft southern necks is sadly mistaken.

Call me sadly mistaken then, but NI would be a gigantic H&W anchor-style weight around our necks.

Historically, it was a heavy-industrial producer and never developed a service economy as we have down south.

As well as the high cost of policing the place, there would also be high unemployment to contend with.

And I'm sure that reluctance to for re-unification runs the other way too. Norn Ironers from both sides must see our Rip-Off culture, crumbling health and education services, high levels of taxation (indirect taxation, before you start!), poor infrastructure, and think to themselves that they wouldn't want to be part of our mess either.

Actually, forget Sinn Fein, we should start a new political party called "Me Fein" (each for himself) - I'm sure it would do well down South.

fly_agaric

Irjudge1 wrote:

We can expect sometime in the future should a united Ireland come about that there will be a terrorist campaign south of the border by loyalist paramilitaries whose numbers will no doubt swell, or all out war maybe.

Why oh why would anybody want a 32-county Republic now anyway? Is it really worth more deaths?

Irjudge1 wrote:

So who's going to change the inevitable?

If you mean a united Ireland, it is not inevitable. If enough people in the south don't want it, it won't happen.
However, the problem is the growth of SF support in the south. IMO, alot of its new supporters really care búgger-all about NI and politics there, but the party is controlled by its Northern wing. If it gets a bit of power here, I fear it will lead to the Irish government trying to interfere more in NI. The Brits want to offload NI now anyway and will be happy to oblige. The loyalists will get even angrier, and there will be more violence - probably bombs in Dublin.

Quotes from a poor loyalist victim in the Irish Times weekender today, belted down by the cruel hurley of Catholic oppression:

"We have to fight to defend ourselves...we shouldn't be fighting on our own streets, we should be fighting on other people's streets - the centre of Belfast, Dublin if needs be"

"I believe the government are saying to themselves 'the loyalists are burning their own areas so we've nothing to worry about here', whereas if people here said to themselves (and I'm not suggesting that they should ), 'we'll burn part of Dublin down or whatever we have to do..."

Yeah... Bring on our 32-county nirvana!

Irjudge1 wrote:

I think we in the South need to stop referring to our friends in the North as some sort of nation of psychopaths.

Our friends?
What are they anyway... happy, well adjusted people who keep a little corner of their minds clear for pure, vicious hatred and resentment of their neighbours? Or maybe you mean we should just be polite about it?

Irjudge1 wrote:

If the country were united in some shape or form anybody who believes that the north would be a weight around our soft southern necks is sadly mistaken.

It's been a big dead weight around the UK's neck for a while now. Why do you think we'll have any better luck? The government here (in the South) don't have a good track record for running things efficiently. Why should they do any better with a massive project like trying to integrate the North into the Republic.

RSynnott wrote:

An Operation Ploughshare solution would work either.

LOL. We could ask the Yanks for the nukes. Say it was to do with the "peace process" and and how it would be furthered by blasting a 3 mile wide sea canal roughly following the border. /jk

cal29

DublinWriter wrote:

Exactly! Does he think that 600,000+ loyalists will suddenly start waving tricolours go "oh jaysus, sure didn't we have it wrong all along!".

It's what I called the 'dewey eyed myth" of Republicanism that once a 32-county occurs then rainbows will suddenly appear.

Ok so what would loyalists be fighting for

1 the british to reinvade Ireland
2 An independent six counties in which they would already be a minority
3 An independent 2 counties in which they would have a majority ( how viable would that be with no support from the UK or anywhere else)


I dont expect Unionists to start waving tri colours or speaking Irish but I do expect them to respect the wishes of the people. If Nationalists are expected to respect the artificially created majority in the 6 counties at the moment I expect Unionists to observe the agreement that they have signed upto once that majority is no longer there thats it it is over


So if you believe that Unionists would engage in a military campaign in the event of a vote for a united Ireland please explain what outcome such a campaign could hope to achieve

cal29

Irjudge1 wrote:

We can expect sometime in the future should a united Ireland come about that there will be a terrorist campaign south of the border by loyalist paramilitaries whose numbers will no doubt swell, or all out war maybe. History tells us this is what happens when one large element of the population of a country wants something different from the other.

.

Again to what aim

I accept that there may be some hardline loyalists who would want to engage in some kind of military / terrorist campaign but the question again is with what outcome in mind and how much support could they get

Once Britain leaves no terrorist campaign from loyalists will get them to re invade the six counties

that only leaves some kind of indepenence option since unification can only take place following a vote in the 6 counties an independent 6 counties would not be possible as the majority had already voted for reunification

So all that is left is a smaller independent statelet of about 2 to 2 1/2 counties which would be completely unviable and would still have a large nationalist majority

cal29

DublinWriter wrote:

Call me sadly mistaken then, but NI would be a gigantic H&W anchor-style weight around our necks.

Historically, it was a heavy-industrial producer and never developed a service economy as we have down south.

As well as the high cost of policing the place, there would also be high unemployment to contend with.

.

Your sadly mistaken

The service industry in the south is a recent developement and there is no reason why it could not be extended into the six counties

I have already dealt with the fact that you were completely wron g in your figures for policing in the six counties


And why would there be high uneployment we are currently bringing in tens of thousands of immigrants to take up jobs in this country so there are plenty of jobs to go around

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

I dont expect Unionists to start waving tri colours or speaking Irish but I do expect them to respect the wishes of the people. If Nationalists are expected to respect the artificially created majority in the 6 counties at the moment I expect Unionists to observe the agreement that they have signed upto once that majority is no longer there thats it it is over

You're assuming that a majority of the population of Northern Ireland and Ireland will be in favour of a united Ireland and be prepared to pay the price of it, financial and otherwise. It's a big assumption.

cal29 wrote:

So if you believe that Unionists would engage in a military campaign in the event of a vote for a united Ireland please explain what outcome such a campaign could hope to achieve

Irrelevant-military campaign=more death and destruction over a poxy bit of land* (as if this island hasn't had enough of this 'm d!ck's bigger than your d!ck fcuking b()ll()cks already!), ergo best avoided at all costs.

*(unless oil exploration proves fruitful, in which case please ignore what I just said and prepare to claim or birthright**)

**joke

black_jack

cal29 wrote:

Your sadly mistaken

Long time reader first time poster, and I'm sorry you're badly mistaken

So if you believe that Unionists would engage in a military campaign in the event of a vote for a united Ireland please explain what outcome such a campaign could hope to achieve

This is kind of funny, I mean the entirity of the IRA campaign has been based upon the ideal of a united Ireland, and after thirty years and thousands murdered they've got as far as power sharing and they're calling it a sucess? A unionist campaign with similar goals for 30 years couldn't hope to attempt to achieve the same if reunification happened?

Suggesting that the unionists will just go "ah well lads we had a grand wee run of it after all" and then scurry off to learn the words to Amhrán na bhFiann, is a central ideal of the republican movement. Considering the resistance to british rule has been opposed with vigour for decades theres no reason to think the loyalists aren't going to oppose rule from Dublin with the same violence.

The service industry in the south is a recent developement and there is no reason why it could not be extended into the six counties

Um yes there is it's call supply and demand. The service industry requires people with disposal income. People in deprived areas (like pretty much the whole of NI) don't have much of that. Suggesting that you can drop a sushi bar and a dog walking service onto the shankill road and that it'll make jobs is very simplistic.

I have already dealt with the fact that you were completely wron g in your figures for policing in the six counties

He was off on the PSNI figures by around 4,000-6,000 and you've been crowing over it for posts now. You've not mentioned the military presence btw, seeing as the Irish army can't walk onto a firing range without a solicitor how do you think we're going to bulk up their numbers? And again you're ignoring the main thrust, NI requires significantly more police and military than the south despite having despite having a third of the population, how are you justifying that economic black hole?

And why would there be high uneployment we are currently bringing in tens of thousands of immigrants to take up jobs in this country so there are plenty of jobs to go around

Yes, both highly specialised, such as medical which requires funding (more taxes) and simplisitic in areas of high population denisity, the service industry is either expecting the entirity if NI to move to dublin in your mind.

If you want to look to how Ireland will cope with reunification look to Germany, before re unification West Germany was the dynamo of europe, high employment excellent public service, good standard of living. 15 years after absorbing East germany it is still in a massive economic slump. Germany was importing Turkish immirgrants during it's boom years, why didn't the boom continue after reunification? I mean they had thousands of germans now with "plenty of jobs" to go around? Because it's not as simple as you make it out to be. Taking on NI would be the death kneel for Irish economic success.