Is Northern Ireland a lost cause?

murphaph

linux wrote:

That's a very childish moronic assumption of a political problem.
NI is a lost cause? what kind of a ridiculous question is that in the first place.
I can see why Politics.ie is regarded as a proper discussion forum and not full of moronic idiots who can't even debate a subject with some degree of intelligence :rolleyes:

Now where's the report post button? You contributed precisely nothing to the thread there, yet feel able to condemn others who have. Good one.

linux

murphaph wrote:

Now where's the report post button? You contributed precisely nothing to the thread there, yet feel able to condemn others who have. Good one.

So you think all those comments about NI being a waste of time and money and that we should do nothing about it is some sort of political contribution do you?
You won't go far in politics with moronic posts like that my friend, Idiotic nonsence is what your spouting, grow up!

murphaph

linux wrote:

So you think all those comments about NI being a waste of time and money and that we should do nothing about it is some sort of political contribution do you?

Yes, insofar as it's a contribution to the politics forum.

linux wrote:

You won't go far in politics with moronic posts like that my friend, Idiotic nonsence is what your spouting, grow up!

I'm not looking to go anywhere in politics and I'm not your friend. If you have an issue with a post, attack the post with some sort of reasoned argument, don't attack me, the poster in a verbal diatribe because you disagree with what I saw but are seemingly incapable of forming an argument to counter it. You're new here, perhaps you haven't read the rules on posting.

Blackjack

murphaph wrote:

In fact the Economist ranked us as the best place in the world to live, so because a magazine does a less than scientific 'study' and tells you it's all good, you believe it? :rolleyes:

I can roll off a couple of dozen places that are better to live in than Ireland, easily.

And you expect me to take your word for it over the Economists, or any of the other surveys? :rolleyes:
I am sure that there everyone can name several dozen places better to live, but very few would ever venture NI being one of them.

linux

murphaph wrote:

I'm not looking to go anywhere in politics and I'm not your friend.If you have an issue with a post, attack the post with some sort of reasoned argument, don't attack me, the poster in a verbal diatribe because you disagree with what I saw but are seemingly incapable of forming an argument to counter it. You're new here, perhaps you haven't read the rules on posting.

I am attacking the post and suggesting that the poster catch himself on to reality, The question whether NI is a lost cause is the most absurd question on this forum and I have to question the merits of such a ridiculous thread. Why ask a stupid question when you know well that the only solution will be a politically agreed one guided by both British and Irish Gov's. What exactly is your point? if your suggesting that both gov's do nothing and everything will be hunky dory then your living in cloud cuckoo land.

murphaph

linux wrote:

I am attacking the post and suggesting that the poster catch himself on to reality

So you reckon you're attacking the post and the poster.

linux wrote:

The question whether NI is a lost cause is the most absurd question on this forum and I have to question the merits of such a ridiculous thread.

Interesting, I think there have been 150 odd replies to this 'absurd question'. It it were really so absurd people wouldn't bother debating it.

linux wrote:

Why ask a stupid question when you know well that the only solution will be a politically agreed one guided by both British and Irish Gov's.

....in YOUR HUMBLE OPINION I'm sure-that doesn't make it a fact. They've been pr!cking around with this British & Irish government involvement since the Anglo Irish Agreement signed in 1985, that's 20 years and they're still as divided as ever up there, indeed there are more 'peace lines' now than then!!!

linux wrote:

What exactly is your point? if your suggesting that both gov's do nothing and everything will be hunky dory then your living in cloud cuckoo land.

Point is this-NI swallows up a whole lot of time, effort and money and they still act like a bunch of spoiled children. Time to cut the apron strings and let them sort it out between themselves. They've been molly-coddled far too long. Bertie Ahern and the rest of OUR government should be governing OUR country, not spending all this time worrying about that kip.

linux

murphaph wrote:

Point is this-NI swallows up a whole lot of time, effort and money and they still act like a bunch of spoiled children. Time to cut the apron strings and let them sort it out between themselves. They've been molly-coddled far too long. Bertie Ahern and the rest of OUR government should be governing OUR country, not spending all this time worrying about that kip.

Well Murphaph, unfortunately for you that's just not going to happen. So in my opinion your wasting your time and breath, those apron strings wil remain until everything gets sorted out and whether you like it or not (i'm presuming the later) Bertie ahern our leader and his party believes that Ireland should be re-unified so until that happens OUR goverment will be spending a lot more time worrying about it

murphaph

linux wrote:

Well Murphaph, unfortunately for you that's just not going to happen. So in my opinion your wasting your time and breath

Would you have said the same to opposers of the Nazi party in 1930's Germany when their rise to power appeared inevitable?

linux wrote:

those apron strings wil remain until everything gets sorted out and whether you like it or not (i'm presuming the later) Bertie ahern our leader and his party believes that Ireland should be re-unified so until that happens OUR goverment will be spending a lot more time worrying about it

Ireland was never a single political entity, certainly not in the last 1000 years (it's debatable, but some scholars think there was unity for a brief period in the 10th century), so quit spouting the re-unification tripe. As for OUR (I hope you're from the republic!) government devoting precious time and energy into the sink-hole that is Northern Ireland, while OUR health service along with everything else is still in a decrepit state, well that's just a plain dis-service to OUR people who pay THEIR wages. The Northern Ireland taxpayer certainly doesn't (It can't even pay for itself!).

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

Would you have said the same to opposers of the Nazi party in 1930's Germany when their rise to power appeared inevitable?

Hmmmm. There always has to be a Nazi jibe somewhere.

How about the converse, when South Africa was going through their extraordinary transition in power in the 1980s and 1990s, did you think it would all end in some apocalyptic race war and really was a waste of money when de Klerk and Co. should've been dealing with the employment numbers?

billy the squid

Deleted User wrote:

Hmmmm. There always has to be a Nazi jibe somewhere.

How about the converse, when South Africa was going through their extraordinary transition in power in the 1980s and 1990s, did you think it would all end in some apocalyptic race war and really was a waste of money when de Klerk and Co. should've been dealing with the employment numbers?

whether or not it ends in a race war remains to be seen

and the difference with Northern Ireland and South Africa is that the majority of the country wanted change, where as here it is a different story.

billy the squid

billy the squid wrote:

and the difference with Northern Ireland and South Africa is that the majority of the country wanted change, where as here it is a different story.

The point I was making really relates to when a majority in NI wanted change too. I wasn't suggesting that reunification be imposed now, against the will of the majority.

murphaph

Ehhh, wtf are you on about? I wasn't comparing NI to Nazi Germany!!!

Linux reckons we should just shut up and 'not waste our breath' disagreeing with something we feel to be wrong because he feels it looks inevitable.

I asked him if that's how he would have felt in 1930's Germany, ie, was it the 'right thing to do' to shut up, stay quiet and grin and bear something which you disagree with (the rise to power of the NSDP). People on here see NAZI and can't wait to mock the comparison, totally failing to see what comparison is actually being made and prematurely ejaculating a load of nonsense about Nazi comparisons. Read the post again, s-l-o-w-l-y this time.

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

Ehhh, wtf are you on about? I wasn't comparing NI to Nazi Germany!!!

And I didn't say you were making the comparison. I just pointed out that you raised Nazism, I am perfectly aware of the context in which you raised it.

Needless to say, I won't dictate how you should reread my post, but as a matter of curiosity, did you think the 's-l-o-w-l-y' line was

(i) witty, or
(ii) original?

I assure you, it was neither...

murphaph

Deleted User wrote:

And I didn't say you were making the comparison. I just pointed out that you raised Nazism

I don't think anyone here needs you to stand to the side and point at my post, yelling "nazi refernce, nazi refernce"! They can read it for themselves and see clearly that I raised Nazism, so there's no need to highlight it unless you wanted to add something to it or counter it. You 'countered' it with a reference to SA and FW De Clerk which was completely out of the context in which it was being discussed, ie, 'keeping quiet when you believe something to be wrong'.

Deleted User wrote:

Needless to say, I won't dictate how you should reread my post, but as a matter of curiosity, did you think the 's-l-o-w-l-y' line was

(i) witty, or
(ii) original?

I assure you, it was neither...

Posts don't have to be witty or original. It's not a popularity contest.

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

It's not a popularity contest.

Lucky for you, because I have great charm and a winning smile...

cal29

rsynnott wrote:

Even if many of the catholic community don't want to join the Republic? Even if the Republic doesn't want NI? And what happens when that nationalist/unionist balance is upset by immigration of people who probably aren't too bothered, and almost certainly don't think it's an issue worth blowing up children over?.

Immigrants will presumably have to take one side or the other or be ignored if there is a referendum in the future

rsynnott wrote:

I still think that the best solution would be for both the Republic of Ireland and the UK to give up all claims to the place, provide peace-keeping and election supervision for a few months, then leave.

Despite the fact that independence is not what the vast majority of people in the North want and we have seen how Unionists behaved when they had a semi automonous parliament
I can only imagine the outcome of leaving Nationalists alone and undefended in a Unionist dominated society in fact you dont have to imagine it look back a little

murphaph

Deleted User wrote:

Lucky for you, because I have great charm and a winning smile...

So did Joe Stalin, wouldn't wanna be his friend though.

murphaph

cal29 wrote:

I can only imagine the outcome of leaving Nationalists alone and undefended in a Unionist dominated society in fact you dont have to imagine it look back a little

Sure if it's unionist dominated then it'll remain part of the union.

is_that_so

cal29 wrote:

I can only imagine the outcome of leaving Nationalists alone and undefended in a Unionist dominated society in fact you dont have to imagine it look back a little

Hmm I seem to have seen this kind of comment before. Could have been 20,30 or even 40 years ago. The past is the past. The future is supposed to be about a shared solution. The amount of dialogue over the last ten years is evidence of how this can happen. Indulging in old doggerel will not get anyone anywhere.

monument

murphaph wrote:

Can you not name one country that you feel is better to live in than here?

Not any that would hugely change my overall quality of life, not in a positive way anyway.

murphaph

monument wrote:

Not any that would hugely change my overall quality of life, not in a positive way anyway.

Fair enough, but can I give you a tip........don't get sick.

robinph

cal29 wrote:

Despite the fact that independence is not what the vast majority of people in the North want and we have seen how Unionists behaved when they had a semi automonous parliament
I can only imagine the outcome of leaving Nationalists alone and undefended in a Unionist dominated society in fact you dont have to imagine it look back a little

I think that until they can prove that they can just get along nicely together then NI should be forced to be an independant state that looks after itself. Pull out all UK forces and funding, remove any claim to NI from the Repuplics constitution etc, and leave them to it. Maybe send in some UN peace keeping forces for a while, and then they have to apply to the EU for membership as a seperate country. But if there is no way that they can be considered part of either the UK or the Republic then there is no Nationalists or Unionists, as the only body that they can become part of is the EU, or go off on their own.

Robin there would still be nationalists-ie people agitating for a united Ireland in that scenario.
The independent NI is really a 2nd best option for unionists and no option at all for nationalists

robinph

Earthman wrote:

Robin there would still be nationalists-ie people agitating for a united Ireland in that scenario.
The independent NI is really a 2nd best option for unionists and no option at all for nationalists

I realise that there would still be people from both sides that would still prefer a united Ireland/ Kingdom, but if some way could be found to convice them that it will never happen how would they hope to achive it.

You can fight against another country that you percive to have taken over you lands inorder that you then become a seperate entity by indepandance, but how do you become part of another country that does not want you other than by invasion? Make the only hope of NI ever becoming part of the same country as the Republic as being via a 'United States of Europe' and who do they have to fight with.

It's an unrealistic option.
A country with G Adams and I Paisley as the two leaders

Mr.Nice Guy

robinph wrote:

Make the only hope of NI ever becoming part of the same country as the Republic as being via a 'United States of Europe' and who do they have to fight with.

What about the majority of Irish people who don't want a United States of Europe?

robinph

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

What about the majority of Irish people who don't want a United States of Europe?

Well then it would be for the the people of the state of NI in the US of E to convince us what a wonderfull place it is and that we should all join them.

But basically I think the only way of sorting NI out is to leave them to do it themselves without any outside intervention, or the hope of becoming part of some other already existing country.

monument

murphaph wrote:

Fair enough, but can I give you a tip........don't get sick.

I said 'overall quality of life'.

If you’re referring to our health service, on a personal level, thanks for the concern - but there’s no need as I’m currently under private health insurance.

cal29

is_that_so wrote:

Hmm I seem to have seen this kind of comment before. Could have been 20,30 or even 40 years ago. The past is the past. The future is supposed to be about a shared solution. The amount of dialogue over the last ten years is evidence of how this can happen. Indulging in old doggerel will not get anyone anywhere.

The past is full of mistakes we are doomed to repeat if we dont learn from them
and we have to look back to see what those mistakes were

Looking back is not just about maintaining victimhood it is about learning from the past to improve the present and the future

cal29

Earthman wrote:

Robin there would still be nationalists-ie people agitating for a united Ireland in that scenario.
The independent NI is really a 2nd best option for unionists and no option at all for nationalists

I agree it seems to be the solution of make them both ****ing miserable and completely ignores the fact that we already know that Unionists will not share power unless they are forced to and even then they probably wont do it.

An independent NI would be a return to Unionist rule and a disaster that would blow up in our face just as NI did in 1969 the last time we tried just ignoring the Nationalist population and left them to fend for themselves in a Unionist dominated Society