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FF Voters - if the next election goes wrong...
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I'd have said more cringeworthy.cal29 wrote:Yes but less cringeworthy than Bruton or indeed Noonan
I reckon Bruton was coached and the coaching worked.
He suddenly started speaking veeeeerrrry sloooooowly and paused a lot to think before it came out.
Kenny just has to perse his lips after every sentence with this false smile that looks like he's saying nah na nah na nah after everything he says and with a touch of "that gotcha didn't it..."
And I can tell you it doesnt work.
At least I cringe every time I see and hear it.
As regards Noonan,he was just plain unlucky,ill advised or just too plain tunnel visioned at times in my view.
He made some serious errors or at least took some bad advice eg the Blood scandals and his approach to the victims of it.
Pity really as he was/is otherwise an excelent debater(unlike Kenny) and very very funny.
Dukes-he was inteligent but boringly so-competent though but not a leader in my opinion.
They were/are all ugly and lacking the charisma(though I'm sure quite nice) to hoover in the voters.
I'll apply this analysis to the other parties too and add scores out of ten if ye want
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There's a lot of good stuff in this thread but dear Lord please forgive the tripe. I'm picking on this post.
Matthew 4:21: "do not do what the people chose or what is in the national interest if it goes against your previous policies"cal29 wrote:They can wheel out various excuses like that is what the people chose or it is in the national interest etc etc.
Never ever ever gonna happen. Ever. Ever. Think Rev. Paisley rapping with the Pope and Gerry Adams while executing Loyalists ever.My honest opinion is that it is time FG and FF put their civil war differences behind
Achieving unification in the North through exclusively peaceful means? Releasing "IRA-martyrs" that shoot Gardái?no real policy differences between [FF and FG] for that matter
Unlikely. It is Fine Gael's stated aim to annihilate the PD's. I expect FG to take a step right quite soon and FF to edge back to the left; removing any need for the PD's.the PDs could join them as well
Fine Gael have 30,000 members. This will grow no matter which way the election goes. If we lose, people will float to us even more as people just really get sick of FF. If FG get elected this time we will grow even further also: a stint in government and a chance to show of some policies (and yes, there are some policies and I'll get to that) will attract the voters that think that we have so few policies we'll no longer bring in laws.I think the Labour party have missed an oppurtunity to kill off FG by offering them the prelection pact.
On our knees with 20% of the vote :rolleyes:. And even still we recovered to the mean of their representation within 5 years. Labour's recent pact had feck all difference about this. For the first time ever we matched FF (well, give or take 10 seats) in the local elections and that was way before any real pact.They were on their knees after the last general election
How could a Labour leader, of all leaders, finish us off? Pacts aside, Labour voters are not Fine Gael voters. It's not like they could have stepped up their game. And even had they, it would only have served the PD's as people like myself would have probably tried to centralise the PD's.and a half decent labour party leader should have finished them off
Begin moving speech with altruistic music playing in background...
Fine Gael do have policies. In Ireland, nearly every party have a "slogan": FF are "Republican", Labour are "Socialist", the PD's "Liberal" and SF are "scumbags"; but Fine Gael are the only party to not tie their policy to catchphrases like this. FG's policy is not necessarily based on "Liberal" or "Republican" thinking, but on honesty, integrity and justice. I know that sounds like an absolute soundbite but that's the absolute reason we often sway either side of the Left/Right divide and people think we don't have policies.
With regard policies, both Deputy Kenny and Deputy Rabbitte have agreed to not formally publish full election policies yet. To me, there are three reasons for this:- What's the point in announcing your manifesto (and there will have to be a massive PR push for the manifestos) mid-term? The election will be in 2 years. The hype will have worn off.
- It only gives time for FF/PD's to adapt to the policies, nit-pick them for two years and have a stronger chance to criticise (rightly or wrongly) said policies
- Both FG and Labour have to finalise the policies and it's suicide to announce policies before they've been tried and tested and passed by each other's party members. I know, for example that policies such as a Flat Tax and a State Insurance body are kicking around Young Fine Gael (the senior parties' policies are far more secret)- but they have to go through the machinations first.
There will be policies. And strong ones at that. FG will come down hard on economic and justice issues such as taxes and the IRA, and Labour will kick in with child-care and their stuff. Fingers crossed the Greens will join us in the Dept of the Environment.
With regard Enda Kenny as taoiseach, yeah he's no Bill Clinton. However, Bruton said of Bertie that "they won't accept his style in Europe" and in fairness to the man he stood up to the task. Of course Kenny could do it too.
But in fairness lads, Bertie got it goin' on.....
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You mis-interpreted me. I wasn't "throwing them a bone". Let's be realistic, if there's a FG/Lab/Green govt who will be the main pushers on environmental issues? And damn right. Greens know more about windmills than I do. Who'd really really push for fair/good/etc social welfare? And damn right. Labour know more about the welfare economy than I do. And who'd know more about international relations? And damn right that that would be our post. Now I'm not suggesting that FG would not/could not/want not to deal with these "bones" but in such a coalition it only makes sense to have Labour deal with "Labour" issues etc. Comparing the division of responsibilty to anything other than the division of responsibility, particularly to "keeping the women busy", is the kind of arrogance only Charlie McCreevey election workers could know. (Personal anecdote. You get the ideablack_jack wrote:How wonderfully patronising; the bone thowing to labour and greens that respectively child care and the environment is "their kind of stuff", like some goit down the golf club talking about the lil woman back home and the hobbies that keep her busy, while you earn the crust. That kind of contempt and expectation that the other fella will do your work for you, the stuff you can't be bothered with is typical of FG unjustified and absurd arrogance (cause hey piddly little details, like "children" and "the planet" are mere trifles that big shots like FG can't be bothered with)
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No, I was giving two examples of potential policies that are in "the machine" (and calling a spade a spade I picked two that probably won't be picked up so that there's no major discussion) that we could talk about but there's no point as they're not finalised nor accepted yet. There are dozens of policies (I'm speaking exclusively from YFG here, not the senior party) that are knocking about that we don't really want to get into until we decide fully on them. There's 2 years until the election so there's plenty of time and (hands up) we've not focused on policy the last couple of years as much as we have saving the party. Now we're working on policies that will be the manifesto for the generals and hopefully government. To give you a rough example, but we are not getting into them are:Jaysus and d'yknow what was fantastic, after talking about policies when you get around to mentioning policies you make a load of waffle and then mutter something about a flat tax and a state insurance body.
1) The effectual scrapping of budget day and enforcing targets on government
2) Streamlining the public service
3) Removing as much administration as possible from Gardaí, freeing up time for them to actually fight crime
4) Mandatory publication of annual school reports from each school, giving them ability to name and shame the services they're not being offered but also criticise schools who are not performing, by the what-you-didn't-mention principle.
And to show we do have genuine costed policies that would make a huge difference:
The basis of our Health Policy
I agree. See above.These [flat-tax and state insurance] arent policies,
Ah, another FF'er who thinks that there's no such thing as a synthesis; it's all in the original thesis aye? And actually, while we're on that topic, some policies are on different spectrums of each other I agree. But is this a bad thing? This is what I was getting at regarding the policy catchphrases "liberal" etc. Young Fine Gael are for low corporation taxes (right-wing). But are considering providing cheap state-backed insurance for community projects that are being choked by insurance costs (left-wing). What's wrong with that?I mean they're the antithesis of each other.
In some respects you're right. We don't stick by the right/left thing. We do what we think is good and what is needed and that's what we're a party in the centre. Taxes on children's shoes and free third level education. There's no contradiction. But to be honest with you I completely agree about the flat-tax. I'm in the process of insuring its destruction.Muttering about such a socialist concept as a state insurance company while suggesting a Flat tax, the most extraordinary right wing form of taxation, sums FG right up.
Right, Mr. Government, where's that awe-inspiring €10bn health plan that Micheál wheeled out before the last election? And those 2,000 extra gardaí? [It will take another six and a half years to train an extra 2,000 gardaí] And the 15,000 extra social housing units per annum? [Last year, higher than average, clocked in at 8,149]. The "permament end of hospital waiting lists by the end of 2004"? The reduction of poverty to below 2%? To lower the class:teacher ratio to 20:1? [It's 24:1]. The target that 80% of all earners will pay tax only at standard rate? The "costed" roads programme of €5.6bn that is currently clocking in at €16.4bn? The 0.7% of GNP for ODA by 2007?Scrambling for votes with whatever campaign promises (sod policies that'd be asking too much for them to think things that far through) they think will work.
Policies, they're just not done yet. 2 more years until election time lads. There'll be policies spilling out of our ears by then. If not, I'll simply leave the party.Hell Harney has done sweet FA with the insurance industry whats the easiest thing we can suggest to scrabble some votes away? State insurance! Never explain how it'll work, never justifiy how it gells with the rest of your promises, just keep yelling about FF failures, broken promises, and lies.
If you want to see policies already finished have a look at the Policy/speeches section on www.finegael.ie.
Funny, but only true if your girlfriend is actually doing a combo that takes two years to work out. That would be one hell of a combo.This thread does sums up why I have nothing but contempt for our two largest parties , the FFer isn't saying anything postive just "look how worse off you'd be under the other guy" and the FGer is like my gf playing tekken, just mashing policy buttons until she hits the right combo.0 -
Insurance premiums have soared.Cork wrote:Insurance premiums, unemployment, debt/GDP ratios just happened to fall by themselves.
Unemployment did come down by itself. FF can't claim to have made the Celtic Tiger. You kept it running by doing sweet feck all. Unemployment and debt ratios had very little to do with the govt. Yes growth is firing away
There has never been a richer Irish govt? It's not what you got, it's what you got with what you had.Could anyboby name a more successful Irish government
Cork, buddy, FG/Labour have only released one policy document together, this month. And it's a statement of goals regarding social partnership. FF have some cheek to talk about "costings" and policy has been address seven times over.or provide links to any fully costed Fg/Labour policy documents?
Germany's economy is nothing like ours. At all. And they took in an impoverished communist state not so long ago. You simply can't compare them. Hint: what you'd be much better doing is comparing our growth to the OECD average than to a manufacturing economy with fifteen times our population. But I won't let you win, you'll have to do the research yourselfThere is over 10% unemployment in Germany. The economy is France is sluggish..
What about hypocricy? Costed plans? If FF want costed plans FG will just take a random figure out of our head and say it. Of course, we won't actually try to ensure that that price is matched, but we'll let it soar to our heart's content.There is nothing worse than begrudgery and not giving credit where it is due.
8 years in government. A lot done. More to do.Sure, the health system needs improvement. The Health Boards are gladly gone and new structures are now in place. I would prefer reform to happen quicker but reform takes time to implement.
Indeed. Well done.The smoking ban was a measure than will be copied accross the EU. For once, this country has shown leadership.
How kind.If alternative government produced a policy document fully costed - then I'd consider it.
There's two years left. Policies from both parties and joined statements will come. The election is not judged by soundbytes - and nor is it tomorrow. No policies are needed yet because the public have not made up their mind. They will come before they do, and I just hope you lads keep using that line when they're spilling out.But FG/Labour have not even come up with an election platform of alternative policies. If partys were elected by soundbytes - Enda would already be Taoiseach.0 -
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Here's the editorial from today's Independent, another rabidly pro-Fine Gael paper...
We have a government that has substituted decision making for report commissioning.JUST in case anyone had forgotten how large consultants, spin doctors and "experts" of all varieties loom in our lives, the Fine Gael chief whip, Paul Kehoe, has performed a useful service by finding out what we pay to maintain one part of the jungle.
He has discovered that in eight years Fianna Fail and Progressive ministers have spent just under €100m of taxpayers' money commissioning 1,044 reports. The Departments of Health and Justice are spectacular practitioners, with 134 and 161 reports respectively.0 -
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