Harvey Norman - Plasma TV

Maxwell

Hello there,

I wanted to post this - really just so someone doesn't get "stung" and pay too much!!

I was looking to purchase the following 42" HD Ready Plasma TV: Hitachi PD7200 after reading great reviews etc in various magazines.

I went to check it out in Harvey Norman's and they have a price of €4,500!!

Now with the guide price in the magazines being GBP£2,500 - (€3,693) i thought it was too expensive

......So I did a quick google on it and a list of german retailers came up - and low and behold I ordered one with a company called: http://www.katronics.de

The price (INCLUDING DELIVERY TO MY FRONT DOOR): €2,700!!! (delivery charge was only €80)

That is a difference of €1,800!!!!

Now before you come up with the following in defence of Harvey Norman:

1. Its a different screen - in german etc etc
Absolutely not! It is in English, plugs are the correct ones, box in English etc It is the EXACT same screen
2. Its an internet site - no comeback etc
No again, it maybe an internet site - but they have a shop in Dresden.
3. No Warranty
Oh yes there is - a european wide warranty covers me if anything went wrong.

So there you have it! I saved €1,800 by clicking on www.google.com

Rip off Ireland is right!

DamoKen

Well Harney did say shop around . Not sure if she meant by that to shop outside Ireland which seems the only realistic way of getting a fair deal on most electronic goods. .I have to agree on Harveys though as it is a total rip off, I sometimes go in for a laugh at the prices (yes I get really bored occasionally :rolleyes: ) , fair balls to you anyway, I buy most of my electronic stuff the same way, i.e over the web. By the way, wanted to check out that site you mentioned, are you sure you put up the right url though as Kartronics as it stands couldn't be found?

ambro25

Not much to contribute to this thread, other than to say congrats and that you've done your bit well, we need a few more hundreds of thousands like that to keep the momentum going

Maxwell

Sorry - the link is:

www.katronics.de

Yes nothing much else to say - but the figures speak for themselves


PEOPLE!

Use the options available to you and SHOP around! You are being ripped off and you will continue to be until you do the only thing that makes these retailers hurt......stop giving them your money!

JohnC.

Damn right about shopping around. I just got myself a 1GB Memory Stick for almost half the price being charged in shops here by going online and getting it from http://www.videogamesplus.ca , based in Canada.

RainyDay

What customs/VAT/other duties will you be charged when the item arrives here?

stag39

eh!! it's europe...i think straight buy!!

ambro25

re. Import/VAT duty - I think he was referring to the Canadian purchase (1GB Mem Stick), not the Plasma...

JohnC.

ambro25 wrote:

re. Import/VAT duty - I think he was referring to the Canadian purchase (1GB Mem Stick), not the Plasma...

Oh, that would be directed at me then. I didn't have to pay anything like that. Mainly because, as I was told by others with experience of them, that company do not put the true value of the item on the package. The package says it was worth CAN$8.

What is the threshold above which import duty/VAT has to be paid anyway?

RainyDay

ambro25 wrote:

re. Import/VAT duty - I think he was referring to the Canadian purchase (1GB Mem Stick), not the Plasma...

Actually no, I was referring to the plasma TV.

Mick86

Ireland has always been a Rip-off Republic. About ten years ago I was driving a crap Citroen that needed a new steering rack to pass an insurance inspection. Off to my local motor factors and got a quote of £120 for a Peugeot part that MIGHT fit. If it didn't the shop would still charge me 20% anyway.

So I go home and the wife gets the yellow pages and there's an ad for a place in Northern Ireland that speacialises in parts for French cars. A quick phone call and the gent in the shop confirms that the Peugeot rack will do the job and with a wave of my Mastercard he can guarantee next day delivery by courier.

Total cost £60 sterling.

billstraighten

thanks for both them sites

Maxwell

There is no VAT/CUSTOMS charges for goods purchased in the EU - which makes the pricing even more bizarre!

ambro25

RainyDay wrote:

Actually no, I was referring to the plasma TV.

Well, then - if the Plasma was bought in Germany and German VAT charged at the checkout, there will not be any Import Duty/VAT payable in IE. It was bought intra-EU, end of story. [EDIT: as posted by Maxwell ]

Different for goods coming from outside the EU (e.g. Canada, hence my earlier post).

AFAIK, there is no threshold, it all depends on whether Customs got notice of the parcel or not (which is much more likely with a courier service, and much less likely with USPS/An Post - see the Online Auction/Buying Forum).

MorningStar

Maxwell wrote:

There is no VAT/CUSTOMS charges for goods purchased in the EU - which makes the pricing even more bizarre!

That is not true!!!! There is a limit to the amount of goods that can be sold into European countries without paying local taxes. That is inter-european sales. You buy a CD from Amazon.co.uk now and they remove UK tax (17.5%) and then put Irish tax (21%) on it.
I checked it all out with the tax office before and basically local tax doesn't get charged untill some sales limit into the country is reached by the company, the limit will be reduced over time so that all inter-state sales will have local tax charged. It actually seems fair to local businesses and governments that they do it this way.

WizZard

German VAT is 16%, Irish is 21%.
It looks like there was more than 5% added to the price in Harvey Norman's.

So it would be up to the company to decide what VAT rate to charge, and not the purchaser?

ambro25

MorningStar wrote:

That is not true!!!! (etc.)

Not calling you names or anything, but... how does this work then?

Does Amazon.co.UK charge the IE VAT amount (to Irish customers, and beyond a certain monthly/annual turnover with Irish customers) and then send a cheque to the IE Revenue Commissioner? Or pay the UK HM Custom & Excise 17% and 4% differential to IE RC? Or...what?

(PS - don't forget they reclaim UK 17% VAT as well, as a business - not sure how they'd go about reclaiming IE 21% VAT, being based in the UK, somehow...)

Never heard of that one, and I've dealt cross-country intra-EU for many, many years, including some deals worth €/£ millions (on which VAT was payable, and in each case that applicable of the seller's country).

Source (please )?

Maxwell

MorningStar wrote:

That is not true!!!! There is a limit to the amount of goods that can be sold into European countries without paying local taxes. That is inter-european sales. You buy a CD from Amazon.co.uk now and they remove UK tax (17.5%) and then put Irish tax (21%) on it.
I checked it all out with the tax office before and basically local tax doesn't get charged untill some sales limit into the country is reached by the company, the limit will be reduced over time so that all inter-state sales will have local tax charged. It actually seems fair to local businesses and governments that they do it this way.

Don't understand your arguement to be honest? The reply above is questioning your source on it..

I am questioning your reason for posting it. I really don't give a flying fiddle of what VAT is paid where - simply put:
Shop in Ireland. Product: Plasma Price: €4,500
Shop in Germany Product: Same Plasma Price: €2,700 incl. delivery

Its simple - I buy the cheaper one and I am happy

Jesus - don't over analyse the fact that we are being ripped off on most electrical goods.

Go off and pay the extra - I for one won't!

MorningStar

I didn't defend Harvey Norman's prices at any point I just pointed out the comment I quoted was incorrect.
Any EU company selling to other EU countries must record the value of their sales in to other countries. If they exceed or expect to exceed the requirement to register for tax in that country (€51,000 in ireland for goods €25,500 for services) you have to do so and pay the taxes as appropriate. It's yearly obviously. Amazon.co.uk do charge Irish customers irish vat rates all of which goes to the Irish government. If you are not doing this maybe there is a loophole (probably business to businness) but that is how it works as a rule. Source was the revenue and amazon when I noticed the different prices I was being charged. I am no expert on the subject of tax but that's what I was told by the tax office ring them yourself or search the website I did it before and couldn't be bothered doing it again to prove a point.

Harvey Norman is a terrible company as far as I am concerned. They appear to import all management staff by abusing they visa system here. On top of that they charge high prices for bad products. They are here and Australia so comparing them to other EU countries prices doesn't mean that much to me.

"I really don't give a flying fiddle of what VAT is paid where"

You should. Not sure who you are blaming for the price difference. The whole country or an Australian company that is noted for high prices under the gise of being cheap.

ambro25

MorningStar wrote:

Any EU company selling to other EU countries must record the value of their sales in to other countries.

Agree with that.

MorningStar wrote:

If they exceed or expect to exceed the requirement to register for tax in that country (€51,000 in ireland for goods €25,500 for services) you have to do so and pay the taxes as appropriate.

Disagree with that.

I have just ordered a book off Amazon.fr, delivery in Dublin, Ireland. See attached screengrab.

0% VAT, look at the line 'TVA' in the summary top right (VAT is not applicable to books in France) - so where's the Irish 21%?

Got to Amazon.fr, place a dummy order and see for yourself

EDIT - just done a dummy order on Amazon.co.uk with delivery in Dublin, Ireland, second screenshot. Do the math, VAT on order total + delivery looks like 12% or so - no sign of Irish VAT at 21% either, whichever way you massage the numbers

MorningStar wrote:

Amazon.co.uk do charge Irish customers irish vat rates all of which goes to the Irish government.

Allegedly. You don't know that. Neither do I.

MorningStar wrote:

If you are not doing this maybe there is a loophole (probably business to businness) but that is how it works as a rule.

No loophole. Just application of standard EU Law and respective tax law of many Member States.

As posted before, I've dealt in LUX, BE, FR, DE, IT, ES(Pain), UK, IE, etc, etc. in deals involving either services or goods for amounts way above the threshold figure you've indicated, and not ever once had any word from the accountants, banks, tax offices or whatnot about this Irish 'derogation' which you suggest.

Perhaps a particularly nasty case of Rip Off Republic at hand (à la VRT)?

MorningStar

ambro25 wrote:

Disagree with that.

I have just ordered a book off Amazon.fr, delivery in Dublin, Ireland. See attached screengrab.

0% VAT, look at the line 'TVA' in the summary top right (VAT is not applicable to books in France) - so where's the Irish 21%?

Got to Amazon.fr, place a dummy order and see for yourself

EDIT - just done a dummy order on Amazon.co.uk with delivery in Dublin, Ireland, second screenshot. Do the math, VAT on order total + delivery looks like 12% or so - no sign of Irish VAT at 21% either, whichever way you massage the numbers



Perhaps a particularly nasty case of Rip Off Republic at hand (à la VRT)?

You can disagree all you like. As I said I am not a tax expert. I can tell you what I know and established. It may depend on whether it is a business transaction or not. I am going to believe the tax office on this on consumer items because I got charged the tax and challenged it. You didn't buy or get charged for the item plus it is French amazon books also aren't taxed here either. I said CD from UK Amazon and have done so many times and charged Irish tax buy a CD and you get charged a different price to quoted.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/502576/202-5384819-1184657

"VAT for EU customers outside the UK

Amazon.co.uk is required by law to collect VAT on orders for goods (including e-Books) dispatched to most countries within the European Union. For EU customers outside of the UK, amounts of VAT charged are in accordance with the local legislation in each country. For customers with a delivery address within the EU, VAT charges for your order will be itemised on the last page of your order, in the e-mail confirmation of your order and on the invoice dispatched with your order.

See VAT rates for a full list of rates charged by Amazon.co.uk on goods dispatched to addresses within the EU."

You now stand corrected and I suggest you talk to you accountant!
EDIT:
In fairness the numbers I quoted early might be wrong I just assumed it would be the same for foreign companies as Irish ones.

parsi

Amazon.co.uk do charge Irish VAT - its changes at the last minute when you have finalised the details. Amazon.de do it as well but they only reached their threshold the year before last - I had a bit of a shock one time when the amounts changed.

Last time I ordered from jes.de they charged German rates but computershopper.de were well enough know to be chanrging the rates for whatever country you were in.

If you buy from a small internet site - like the plasmas people who I imagine aren't known worldwide - you will be able to pay the local rates.

I know here at work we often have VAT nightmares (4th Schedule VAT) when dealing with how to pay bills from non-Irish suppliers.

BTW there isn't any VAT on books in Ireland..

Guy:Incognito

Is it not "rip off everywhere bar Germany" ? seeing as the UK price is also €1000 more than Germany.

dublinguy05

Maxwell great find..let me know how you get on as I would be interested in one myself

ambro25

MorningStar wrote:

You didn't buy or get charged for the item plus it is French amazon books also aren't taxed here either.

Don't quite understand/follow you there, sorry. Don't see what 'French' has to do with it, either...

I did buy the FR book, at zero VAT.

I haven't confirmed the UK order but will do so tonight from home and check whether I get charged IE VAT then - will screengrab too and will own up if I do get charged IE VAT.

Note that it would be a first (not been charged IE VAT once in past 12 months, from FR or UK - but then I don't buy CDs or DVDs from Amazon, only books and games).

MorningStar wrote:

I said CD from UK Amazon and have done so many times and charged Irish tax buy a CD and you get charged a different price to quoted.

Inference: so are they charging IE VAT on CDs but FR/UK VAT on books (depending which site I'm ordering from)?

Or have I misunderstood you and what you are saying is that since there's no VAT on books in Ireland, therefore that's why I'm not getting charged with VAT in FR?

MorningStar wrote:

You now stand corrected and I suggest you talk to you accountant!

Don't need one (these are private purchases).

And if Amazon are indeed charging me IE VAT now, well... then it's time to use my Google supersenses™ and find me another supplier which doesn't - Maxwell-stylee

Maxwell

dublinguy05 wrote:

Maxwell great find..let me know how you get on as I would be interested in one myself

Hi there,

I received the TV after a few days and everything is perfect - 100%, actually the screen is even better than I thought, even my wife loves it and wants another for another room. (She's finally converted to my way of thinking!!)

I have it a couple of weeks now and everything really is a dream with it. The best thing about it is the connections etc - the best out there. I have everything I have hooked up to it. Its a quality Plasma and a bargain at the price I paid!

MorningStar

ambro25 wrote:

Don't quite understand/follow you there, sorry. Don't see what 'French' has to do with it, either...

I did buy the FR book, at zero VAT.

You mean the same as the Irish tax rate as I mentioned. French, UK, USA Amazon are most likely all seperate companies that would be what a big deals is

ambro25 wrote:

Note that it would be a first (not been charged IE VAT once in past 12 months, from FR or UK - but then I don't buy CDs or DVDs from Amazon, only books and games).

You would get taxed on the games but are you really going to noticea 1-5% on an item with exchange rate (UK) involved. It was defintely happening last year if not 2 years ago.

ambro25 wrote:

Don't need one (these are private purchases).

this doesn't match up with your earlier post. Note your mention of accountants

ambro25 wrote:

As posted before, I've dealt in LUX, BE, FR, DE, IT, ES(Pain), UK, IE, etc, etc. in deals involving either services or goods for amounts way above the threshold figure you've indicated, and not ever once had any word from the accountants, banks, tax offices or whatnot about this Irish 'derogation' which you suggest.

You think the TAX office aren't one day going start looking at this good luck. If it through any other agency or organisation you could get a nasty shock at some point. It's not like the EU is getting better at coming down on this stuff. So basically you are a rogue trader who does not pay the correct tax?

ambro25 wrote:

And if Amazon are indeed charging me IE VAT now, well... then it's time to use my Google supersenses™ and find me another supplier which doesn't

If you don't want to pay Irish TAX leave, seriously other wise you are a parasite.

ambro25

MorningStar wrote:

this doesn't match up with your earlier post. Note your mention of accountants

You are inferring too much, my good friend - I stated that I have done deals (commercial) intra-EU, some quite large, usually on behalf of companies (having an internal accountant), and spoken to (company) accountants about VAT. Not my personal accountant. :rolleyes:

MorningStar wrote:

So basically you are a rogue trader who does not pay the correct tax?

Again - see above. Where-o-where have I ever posted/suggested that I was 'trading'? AFAIK correct taxes have always been paid by the companies employing me in each and every country involved. Note that it was not my responsibility to ensure same, tho'... And as a private individual, I do not 'trade' with any items which I buy, VAT-charged (intra-EU) and/or (rarely) VAT-free (outra-EU). I buy them because I want them, and overseas because (i) I can't find them here (most of the cases) or (ii) refuse to pay ROR prices (few cases). Maxwell's OP is a case in point, and you're losing sight of the thread purpose.

MorningStar wrote:

If you don't want to pay Irish TAX leave, seriously other wise you are a parasite.

And as an individual, I work for a living, I support a wife and child, and I do not avoid VAT or any other tax: Income Tax, Road Tax, Bin Tax, Insurance Tax, etc, etc, etc. I choose inasmuch as possible where I pay taxes if the 'system' allows it legally, to save a few €s here and there. Do you pay all yours (or any)?

I've enjoyed discussing the matter with you up to this point: explain the "parasite" bit, which is totally uncalled for (and actually quite vexatious, given that I give quite a bit in taxes to 'IE' and my family unit as a whole takes nothing from 'IE')? :rolleyes:

Cuauhtemoc

If you don't want to pay Irish TAX leave, seriously other wise you are a parasite.

Get a grip. You and i all pay our Income tax etc here.
I suppose you've never bought duty free or bought presents for people while abroad? All avoiding irish tax.
Huge numbers of people shop over the internet and pay vat in country of purchase(presumably up to the limits you've specified).
Are they all parasites?

C.

MorningStar

ambro25 wrote:

Not my personal accountant. :rolleyes:

You most definitely inferred that due to your experience you knew more because none of the people you mentioned spoke of the tax laws as I had mentioned

ambro25 wrote:

Again - see above. Where-o-where have I ever posted/suggested that I was 'trading'? AFAIK correct taxes have always been paid by the companies employing me in each and every country involved. Note that it was not my responsibility to ensure same, tho'... And as a private individual, I do not 'trade' with any items which I buy, VAT-charged (intra-EU) and/or (rarely) VAT-free (outra-EU). I buy them because I want them, and overseas because (i) I can't find them here (most of the cases) or (ii) refuse to pay ROR prices (few cases). Maxwell's OP is a case in point, and you're losing sight of the thread purpose.

Either way you were paying the irish tax just unaware . It may be off main point of iteam of the thread but the main point that Ireland is the rip off when it is obviously not the case as proved by the UK price.

ambro25 wrote:

And as an individual, I work for a living, I support a wife and child, and I do not avoid VAT or any other tax: Income Tax, Road Tax, Bin Tax, Insurance Tax, etc, etc, etc. I choose inasmuch as possible where I pay taxes if the 'system' allows it legally, to save a few €s here and there. Do you pay all yours (or any)?

I get the impression that if you were able to evade them you would. I am able to evade some tax and don't because I don't think it is right. Avoiding tax is different but to put the irish economy at risk and pay another EU countries to save a few €s is sad and short sighted.

ambro25 wrote:

I've enjoyed discussing the matter with you up to this point: explain the "parasite" bit, which is totally uncalled for (and actually quite vexatious, given that I give quite a bit in taxes to 'IE' and my family unit as a whole takes nothing from 'IE')? :rolleyes:

Just because you pay some taxes does not give your the right to evade taxes. It is a differnt view than yours not a stupid one. The differnce is paying your way is known as the moral thing to do while weasling out of taxes is known as the selfish thing to do. :rolleyes: Everybody in this country takes from the government and economy. Child allowance, road you use, lights on the street, water etc... If you pay more than somebody else so be it somepeople take more than others you don't like it leave. Enjoy another society where you can keep your money and have a job. Good and bad come together and you don't survive as an individual.
Do you complain about brown envolpes and corrupt deals of the past and maybe present?

WizZard

MorningStar wrote:

Either way you were paying the irish tax just unaware . It may be off main point of iteam of the thread but the main point that Ireland is the rip off when it is obviously not the case as proved by the UK price.

I think you are blinding yourself with your own views.

Ireland may not be the biggest rip-off in this case, but that doesn't mean it's not a rip-off all the same.

MorningStar wrote:

If you pay more than somebody else so be it somepeople take more than others you don't like it leave.

Leaving seems to be your answer to everything. Why should I, or anyone, be forced out of my own country just because my government, and some of my fellow citizens, are cheating on the country?

Our taxes do pay for roads - which are substandard when compared to the rest of Europe.