Broadband for 3 users

valor

There are 3 of us living in our house and we want to have broadband installed but we want it such that all 3 of us want to be able to go online at the same time. We all have laptops with wireless network cards

We live in Stillorgan

Whats the way forward?

Valor

TimTim

Get a broadband connection.
Buy a wireless router (I'd recommend Netgear DG834G or Linksys WTR54G iirc)
Setup said router.
Connect laptops to router.

Enjoy wireless while sitting in the sun in the back garden.

Although it sounds like your renting so just watch out for the minimum contracts on BB providers.

bk

I suggest that you get a wireless router that does **NOT** have a DSL modem built-in.

If you do get a router with a DSL router built-in, then you would need to buy a new router in the future if you ever decide to move to a different service such as NTL's cable BB or a wireless company.

I made this mistake myself and had to buy a new router when I moved to NTL from DSL.

Any of the wireless routers on the following page should work fine with any BB service including DSL, NTL cable and wireless BB services:
http://www.dsl-warehouse.co.uk/Category.asp?CatID=20&l=2&PcatIDL1=2&PcatIDL2=2&CnL1=NTL/Telewest&CnL2=Wireless%20Cable%20Routers

Blaster99

Some low-end routers (like those mentioned above) may struggle with more than two users. I have a WRT54G myself and I have had on very few occasions more than two laptops connected and I have a vague recollection that the router couldn't handle it reliably and would drop connections. The WRT54G is known for dropping connections at the best of times, but I think it got a lot worse. Maybe somebody has more experience of this than me?

valor

so we get broadband - eg NTL and connect that using a wire into the router? how do i connect the laptops to the wireless router?

any recommendations on what BB to get?

bk

valor wrote:

so we get broadband - eg NTL and connect that using a wire into the router?

Yes, you would connect the NTL modem (or ADSL modem, etc.) into the wireless router using an ethernet cable (supplied with the NTL modem).

valor wrote:

how do i connect the laptops to the wireless router?

Using the wireless cards in the laptops.

valor wrote:

any recommendations on what BB to get?

If you can get NTL then get it, it is the best BB product IMHO.
If you can't get that then in order of preference:

- Smart
- BT Ireland
- Wireless BB from Clearwire or Digiweb
- Wireless from IBB

michaelpwilson

Most routers come with ethernet ports and an ethernet cable to connect your laptop to it (just make sure that at least one laptop has an RJ45 ethernet port). The reason for this is that routers in general will not allow you to configure them over a wireless connection out-of-the-box and you will need to set it up when you take it out of the box.

If you opt to get a DSL router, plug your DSL line from your broadband company into the RJ15 port on the router (it will only fit into one socket anyway). Then plug one end of the ethernet cable supplied with the router into a spare LAN (RJ45 ethernet) port on the back of the router. Plug the other end of the ethernet cable into the RJ45 port on your laptop. Attach the power supply to the router, switch on, and you're ready to configure. Note: if you have chosen a DSL router then you will not require the DSL modem that is usually supplied by your broadband provider - put it back in its box!

You will configure the router usually by using your internet browser and going to 192.168.1.1. Here, the setup changes somewhat depending on the router you've bought, but they're all basically the same. To set up the router for your DSL broadband connection, you will need to know your username, password, and at least two parameters (VCI and VPI) all of which are available from your DSL provider.

Once you have these, type them into the relevant places on the router's configuration page and configure the router to allow wireless access. Note that you really should set up wireless security on your connection (preferably WPA instead of WEP) to prevent others stealing your bandwidth. This is a simple procedure which involves you typing a key into a field on the router configurator, and using the same key on all laptops which will use the wireless connection. It ensures that only computers using this key will have access to your network. However, before you get your network up and running, don't bother switching on the security as it will only complicate matters if you have problems.

Most routers function as a NAT firewall as well so you will have significantly more protection from internet attacks than you would otherwise, but don't rely on it totally. Ensure you get a good anti-virus program on all attached computers and that you employ a software-level firewall like ZoneAlarm (which is free). To prevent complications, I would suggest that you do not install the anti-virus software or software firewall until you have successfully configured your router.

When the router is configured you will need to activate the wireless transceiver on your laptops (many are switched off by default if it's an internal 802.11 transceiver) and once that's done you can get Windows to scan for available wireless networks. When you find your network, you will be usually prompted to enter the WPA key that you specified, and after this you can surf away to your heart's content.

It's a very simple procedure which I have made sound very difficult... for that I apologise.

Best of luck

Michael

Blaster99

What I meant to say above about the limitations of these low-end routers has to do with the wireless aspects of them, by the way. I didn't make that clear.

bingo9999

But wont he need a central kind of computer to plug the router into? Like you cant just put it into phone socket and not a computer right? There would have to be one of the laptops wired up to it so? That limits one persons wireless freedom?
Unless Im totally wrong about what can be done

philologos

bk wrote:

I suggest that you get a wireless router that does **NOT** have a DSL modem built-in.

If you do get a router with a DSL router built-in, then you would need to buy a new router in the future if you ever decide to move to a different service such as NTL's cable BB or a wireless company.

I made this mistake myself and had to buy a new router when I moved to NTL from DSL.

Any of the wireless routers on the following page should work fine with any BB service including DSL, NTL cable and wireless BB services:
http://www.dsl-warehouse.co.uk/Category.asp?CatID=20&l=2&PcatIDL1=2&PcatIDL2=2&CnL1=NTL/Telewest&CnL2=Wireless%20Cable%20Routers

no you wouldnt =/ you could just disable the DSL connection and plug your cable router in the cat 5 socket

bk

Jakkass wrote:

no you wouldnt =/ you could just disable the DSL connection and plug your cable router in the cat 5 socket

No I'm afraid you are very wrong about this, most people assume this, but it isn't true for most wireless DSL routers, they simply do not work with external modems.

The reason is that one of the ethernet ports needs to be a WAN (Wide Area Network) port instead of a LAN port and the router also needs various software to make this work. While there is no technical reason why a DSL wireless router couldn't do this, there is no DSL router on the market that does it at the moment, there maybe an exception, but certainly non of the market leading models allow this. I suppose because it would cost extra to add this feature.

bk

bingo9999 wrote:

But wont he need a central kind of computer to plug the router into? Like you cant just put it into phone socket and not a computer right? There would have to be one of the laptops wired up to it so? That limits one persons wireless freedom?

Not really, routers and modems are generally computers themselves (they often run Linux so you don't need a computer connected permanently by wire.

However you are partly right, like michaelpwilson said above you may have to temporarliy connect one of the laptops to the router using ethernet in order to setup the router. However once setup you can disconnect it and use it wirelessly. BTW this limitation is only present for security reasons.

vibe666

bk wrote:

No I'm afraid you are very wrong about this, most people assume this, but it isn't true for most wireless DSL routers, they simply do not work with external modems.

I beg to differ there bk. you certainly can use something like a WRT54G which is what I have. It's a DSL router, but without a modem built in, meaning I just use my existing modem with it in bridge mode. It has the option to either use the modem to connect or to use it as a bridge and do the connecting itself, and if you switched from DSL to CableBB you just need to change the WRT54G to work in bridge mode instead of the modem and it will work fine. if you doubt this at all, then you can find all the info you need at www.linksysinfo.org, which as everything you could possibly need to know (and a whole lot more) about Linksys products.

Blaster99 wrote:

Some low-end routers (like those mentioned above) may struggle with more than two users. I have a WRT54G myself and I have had on very few occasions more than two laptops connected and I have a vague recollection that the router couldn't handle it reliably and would drop connections. The WRT54G is known for dropping connections at the best of times, but I think it got a lot worse. Maybe somebody has more experience of this than me?

i have a Linksys WRT54G myself, and I can categorically say that that's down to one fo two things. it's either the way you have it set up, or there's something wrong with it.

what firmware are you using with it?

assuming you're happy with re-configuring the thing to work with your connection again after re-flashing it, Id recomend using the latest HyperWRT firmware with a startup script that will solve your problems.

most connectivity problems with WRT54G's are down to people using P2P apps on PC's with them. As a default setting (which ifaik can't be canged on the standard firmwares) the WRT54G's track DNS requests for something like a week or more, which when using nothing but web browsing is no problem, but when using P2P apps becomes an issue after a day or two of continually connecting to different addresses.

Anyway, I'm a heavy P2P user with a WRT54G and haven't rebooted it for a month or so now (since finding the startup script mentioned above) and it works fine. not to mention the QoS option in the custom firmware which allows me to put high priority on certain traffic (HTTP in my case) so my g/f can surf the net over wifi on the laptop while my wired desktop downloads stuff via P2P.

just a side note about the WRT54G, as far as using it with more than one or two PC's/laptops, then take a look at www.linksysinfo.org and see the projects they have to turn the WRT54G into an ISP in a box, allowing you to let your neighbourhood to all connect to the net via your connection and even allows you to track usage and bill people for their usage if you so desire.

trust me, if you're having problems, it's not the WRT54G, it just needs to have a little TLC to make the most of it. granted some routers will work out of the box with no problems, but you won't get nearly as much out of them as with a WRT54G thanks to the dedicated modding community that linksys themselves have lovingly cultivated by allowing it to be so easily hackable. so much so that some custom hacks have actually made it into official firmware rivisions.

have fun.

dam099

vibe666 wrote:

I beg to differ there bk. you certainly can use something like a WRT54G which is what I have. It's a DSL router, but without a modem built in, meaning I just use my existing modem with it in bridge mode. It has the option to either use the modem to connect or to use it as a bridge and do the connecting itself, and if you switched from DSL to CableBB you just need to change the WRT54G to work in bridge mode instead of the modem and it will work fine. if you doubt this at all, then you can find all the info you need at www.linksysinfo.org, which as everything you could possibly need to know (and a whole lot more) about Linksys products.

How is the WRT54G a DSL router? You just said it doesn't have a modem built in, doesn't his mean it is a regular router. I have one also and have never seen any reference to it as a DSL router. I always understood that when people referred to DSL routers they meant one with a DSL modem built in.

michaelpwilson

There appears to be a good deal of ambiguity here. Many routers are advertised as having DSL connectivity but in fact are not DSL modems and have nothing to do with DSL technology.

For example, this modem from 3Com is advertised as “3Com OfficeConnect Wireless 11g Cable/DSL Router - wireless router” - but it is not a DSL modem. DSL shouldn’t be in the product description, but it is. To use this router with a DSL connection you would need to have a separate DSL modem, which in turn would plug into this router. Compare the above router with this one from 3Com, which does have a DSL modem built-in.

It could be argued that in some respects, the modem-less router is more versatile than one with an included DSL modem, because you can use it with either a DSL connection (via a separate DSL modem) or a cable / wireless connection. For simplicity's sake, however, I wouldn't recommend it to someone who has a DSL connection and just wants one box under their desk.

The general rule of thumb seems to be: if the router in question has an RJ15 (i.e. phone line plug) WAN port, then it’s got a DSL modem built-in. If it’s got an RJ45 (ethernet) WAN port instead, then it’s just a router and you will need a separate DSL modem to use DSL broadband. Hope this helps.

Michael

vibe666

there's no ambiguity at all. a DSL router doesn't have a modem in it. it relies on an external DSL modem to make the physical connection to your ISP's hardware, and then takes over and provides the software side of the user authentication and correct settings for said ISP.

a DSL modem with routing capabilities is another beast altogether, and are usually very limited in their capabilities.

the simple truth is, that there are so many DSL standards out there that it's next to impossible for hardware manufacturers like linksys and 3com to make all their products compatible with all the standards out there. so to make like easier for everyone, they leave the hardware side of things to the modems supplied by each ISP (usually cheap crap ones, but they do the job) and then let their gear take over from there.

michaelpwilson

My first post was written in an attempt to help the original poster with his queries over how to set up a wireless network. My second post was written to underscore the need for the original poster to acquire the correct router depending on the type of broadband connection he decided to get. This will be my last post on the subject.

The topic seems to have deteriorated from one that was supposed to help the original poster into a debate as to what is or is not a DSL router, modem, etc.

I must disagree with vibe666 when he says

there’s no ambiguity at all.

This depends on your point of view. To my mind, an advertisement for a router that is described as being a “DSL router” yet does not contain a DSL modem is misleading. Obviously, a router will route whatever connections you plug into it. The “DSL” in the description is simply not required, no more than it is necessary to describe a house for sale as being suitable for providing shelter. I cannot see why vibe666 believes that having “DSL” in the product description for a router that will route any broadband connection does not mislead a novice user into believing that it is also a DSL modem.

I am aware of the differences between a router with a DSL modem and one without a modem. I was trying to make the original poster aware of the differences to aid him in his choice.

It is true that there are many types of DSL out there - ADSL, SDSL, HDSL, RADSL, etc., but stating this does not help the poster. I never said anything about the ability of Linksys or other vendors to manufacture products compatible with all standards, since that is completely irrelevant to the poster’s query. Despite this, I must state that both 3Com and Linksys (and I’m sure most other manufacturers of 802.11 equipment) manufacture routers which both do and do not include DSL modems, all of which satisfy the requirements of people who wish to wirelessly network their connections depending on individual circumstance. I'm not a technical person so if you want to, you can point out errors I have made and I apologise in advance for them.

While it is possible that DSL modems with routing capabilities “are usually very limited in their capabilities”, I would like to say that I have used routers both with, and without, DSL modems, and functionality-wise there is little to choose between them. Certainly for a novice user, there is no discernible difference, save the fact that one router has a DSL modem built-in, and the other doesn’t.

To give a concise, simple answer to the original poster’s question:

(1)
Get a DSL broadband connection from BT Ireland at €40 per month (including line rental).

(2)
OPTION A:
Don’t bother with the DSL modem that BT Ireland send you. Instead, buy one of these - it will do what you want.

OPTION B:
If you want to have a more versatile (but more complicated) solution, buy one of these instead - but you will also need to set-up the DSL modem that BT Ireland have sent you. This option will ensure you can use your router regardless of whether you have a DSL, cable, or wireless broadband connection. If you plan on sticking with DSL, go for option A.

(3)
Set-up your router as I previously detailed. There are instructions included in the package, and a multitude of people on Boards who are willing to help you if you get stuck.

These are only my suggestions. There are many alternatives for broadband and wireless communications, so feel free to investigate them before you decide.

It’s a very simple process which has been obscured by off-topic chatter which ultimately doesn’t help the original poster do what he wanted. I hope this post will.

Best of luck

Michael


[E&OE]

bk

vibe666 wrote:

I beg to differ there bk. you certainly can use something like a WRT54G which is what I have. It's a DSL router, but without a modem built in, meaning I just use my existing modem with it in bridge mode.

Ah, now I see where the confusion is coming from, a misunderstanding of terminology.

Normally the term "DSL Router" is only used for routers that have a DSL modem builtin and typically they can't connect to any other type of external modem due to the lack of a WAN port, instead they have a RJ11 port.

The term "Router" or "Broadband Router" is normally used for a router that doesn't have any type of modem builtin and instead uses an external modem connected by the WAN port (RJ45).

You are right, some stupid marketers, who simply don't understand technology, have incorrectly labeled some "Broadband Routers" as "DSL Routers" which often misleads and confuses people who are new to BB and leaves them with useless kit. I don't think we should be reinforcing that mistake.

I mean DSL Router is a stupid name for a "Broadband Router", after all a "Broadband Router" doesn't contain a single piece of software or hardware that is specific to DSL, they are completely agnostic of the type of BB technology you use. If you were to go by these marketers faulty thinking, then why aren't they called a DOCSIS* Router or even a DSL/DOCSIS/(Wireless Standard) Router.

Actually most of the industry has cleaned up it's act on this now, with the rise in cable and wireless BB use, they now normally correctly name their routers, if you take a look at the linksys product page you will see that all of the routers are correctly called "Wireless Broadband Routers" and that the term "DSL Router" doesn't appear anywhere on the page:
http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?childpagename=US%2FLayout&packedargs=c%3DL_Product_C1%26cid%3D1115416939789&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper

* DOCSIS stands for Data Over Cable Service Interface Specification and it is to the cable industry what DSL is to the telephone industry.

valor

NTL ordered : coming monday

Whats the best (Reasonably priced) router to buy, that is also easy to configure? I really dont have the heart to read al the above at the moment

val

bk

valor wrote:

Whats the best (Reasonably priced) router to buy, that is also easy to configure? I really dont have the heart to read al the above at the moment

Any of the routers on this page will work just fine:
http://www.dsl-warehouse.co.uk/Category.asp?catid=2&l=1&cnL1=NTL/Telewest&PcatIDL1=2

The Netgear WGR614 and the Linksys WRT54G are popular options.